2017-18 official NBA discussion thread

[Chisoxfn]

It seemed(to me at least) that the asset misevaluation started with messing up Asiks RFA status and getting nothing for him when he was clearly coming into his own. From that point forward it just snowballed

I do agree with everyone's take that the Bulls have not done a good enough job maximizing value of existing assets (/getting value for players who will be leaving). I think they have done a good job drafting for relative value, but they have struggled / been unable to get the best value transitioning assets (which was something Paxson had done a good job with during his actual run and something that we have increasingly gotten worse at as Gar gained power). I still find it unbelievable that we couldn't get a 1st round pick for Taj / Doug and I am kind of surprised we didn't shop Rolo when we moved Buckets. With Jimmy...it is just so hard to say what the market actually was that I have no idea whether we did / didn't do good.

 

We also would have greatly benefited from moving Pau Gasol (which would have given us that 1st round pick) and with Niko we very well will be letting him go for nothing (although that is still to be seen). We should be able to play in select S&T deals given some unique contracts we have and it would be a nice change of pace if we were able to maximize / get some equivalent value for doing so.

 

Basically put, I think the Bulls have been a good drafting organization under the Paxson regime (and every deep dive over a number of years would validate that statement...don't care how unsexy it is to say it) and they have also been very good at providing long-term flexibility from a contract perspective (yes, they've signed some bad deals but have largely stayed away from the complete albatross deals that prevented us from being key players in free agency, etc). We have landed B level free agents, but failed to land the big fish.

 

What the front office stinks at is their treatment of coaches and in recent years they have also not gotten the value out of our existing assets (whether moving Deng/Taj/Pau walking, etc).

[thxfrthmmrs]

They aren't much different then the Bulls. Look...we can say Gar and Paxson aren't very good anymore, but there is no arguing that over the past 10-15 years, the Bulls have been at the very least a top 10 NBA team and a consistent playoff team (Rockets are in a similar boat). I laugh at everyone who says the Bulls have the worst front office in the league.

 

Doc Rivers is the worst GM in the league, so you are missing the Clippers. And I disagree with you completely...most GM's in this league wish they could have the track record that John Paxson has had over his career. When his time comes (and I am perfectly fine moving him), people will look back long-term at John Paxson as being a good GM. Even Gar...as much as I don't like the run-ins with the front office and the fact that he is slimy...our historical drafting has been pretty good.

 

2016's draft got us two potential role players. Valentine & Zipser. Not saying either are great players or even starters in this league...but given where we picked, as of today, that is solid value. Additionally, 2015's 1st round pick (Bobby Portis) while inconsistent looks like a guy who can play in the NBA. Again, not a starter, but a solid role player. The Bulls heavily relied on young players (more so then all but a couple teams in the league) and they were the only team who actually won games.

 

When people say they don't trust this front office or a rebuild...I would say I don't trust this front office (cause Gar is just a slimy dude) but their history of drafting has been very good (and that is over a long-term period). Yes, we had some years with misses, but from a relative value perspective, the last two years provided us with three guys, who at this point, appear poised to be role players (and given where we were picking...that is solid relative value). Who knows what can happen, but lets not act like we've been some horrible drafting team...the Bulls haven't. Anyone who says they have are delusional and has no perspective on how likely draft picks are to flop, etc.

 

I hate defending this front office, but some of these statements are just so ridiculous and ignorant of a long-term track record that was pretty good. Everyone thinks its easy to win championships but it isn't, especially in the NBA, and the best front office people may not ever win one because somewhere in the equation...luck can be involved.

 

 

Joe Dumars put together an improbably dominant team in Detroit before completely hamstringing it with terrible trades and signings. He was a fantastic and truly terrible GM in one tenure.

 

Paxson was a good and then terrible executive in his tenure, and a fine record 5 years ago isn't enough to keep your job after the horrendous execution following 2011.

 

The bulls front office has:

- punched out a coach

- Fired a coach for criticizing behind closed doors

- Undermined a coach publicly for a year before firing him and encouraging players to trash him to the media

- Hired an inexperienced coach from college

- Publicly undermined that coach

- Overseen a medical staff that has very nearly killed a player, cleared one to play with a broken leg, and oversaw a chronically injured team. Was never fired, eventually left on their own. Fired Jen Swanson after a year though, guess she didn't get on the loyalty train.

- Traded 2 first round picks to move into the 11th spot to draft a one dimensional college 3 point shooter who couldn't rebound or steal in college. He was terrible. The two picks were much better.

- Drafted Marquis Teague

- Drafted Tony Snell

- Drafted Denzel Valentine

- Overvalued Niko Mirotic, he'll leave for nothing

- Signed Rajon Rondo. He was exactly what you thought Rondo would be, except he also turned out to be improbably the most decent human being in the org. So I'm not going to talk too much crap on him.

- Signed Dwyane Wade

- Thought a team of Butler Wade and Rondo was really good (they were bad)

- Refused to go over luxury tax after 2011 losing Korver and Asik for nothing. It all ended up okay though because they signed rip hamilton.

- Continue to pay rip hamilton for the rest of time

- Let DJ Augustin and Nate Robinson go but made sure that Kirk Hinrich would live forever

- Refused to include Taj Gibson for anything, waited until he was least valuable, then traded him and Doug McDermott for 3 players with negative PER

- Demanded coach play them

- They were terrible

- Coach got team to playoffs by benching them

 

They have been terrible managing the team they put together for 5 years, culminating in trading their best asset for a rebuild and not acquiring future assets.

 

It's cool he used the assets he inherited from Krause to get draft picks that created the 2011 team. But he's been terrible since, he's run a drama-filled embarrassment of an org culture.

 

I agree with Bmags here, there are a lot more failures Pax and Gar should be remembered for than the few draft hits and the lucky ping pong bounce. I will get to that later.

 

I think the best moves GarPax has made are drafting Noah, Rose (no brainer), Taj, Butler, and signing Thibs. This is essentially what lead them to being anywhere from a first round playoff team to a conference finalist the past 8-9 years.

 

But more than the moves they made that failed, the FO also failed big time on the moves they didn't make.

 

They have lucked into getting the first overall pick and turned it into a superstar, but have consistently failed to make the big move to turn the team into a real contender. The biggest acquisitions during the Pax and later Gar era are Ben Wallace, Boozer, Paul Gasol, and Wade. while missing out on the likes of Lebron, Melo, KD, Harden, Paul, Iverson, KG, Bosh, Howard, Kobe, TMac, VC, the list goes on. Being one of the marquee franchises in NBA, and with so many players having roots in Chicago, having only those 4 big name acquisitions to show for in the last 15 years is downright unacceptable.

 

Specifically on trades, over the past 6-7 years the Bulls were a playoff team or even a playoff contender. But they always needed another scorer or a shooter to put them over. But year in and year out, this FO sit idly as the trade deadline goes by. Their lack of creativity to pull off any significant trade is well-documented.

 

I'm not evening going to bring up trading Aldridge for Ty Thomas or signing of VDN as a head coach during the Pax era.

 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Putting their egos and their fragile feelings, while being dramatic gossip queens, ahead of winning should have been more than enough to fire them

[Chisoxfn]

Rondo expected to get bought out today, barring a last minute trade. Supposedly he is interested in mentoring the young players, but it appears Bulls are going to head another direction. Another report out their that Bulls are going to sign European PG Milos Teodosic. 30 year old point guard who is a good shooter and has played well in international competition against NBA players. Not sure how it helps in the overall rebuild, but evidently he wants to play for the Bulls.

[bmags]

I hope Rondo becomes a coach.

[Chisoxfn]

I hope Rondo becomes a coach.

He's supposedly said he still wants to play for a number of years. I actually don't mind Rondo the mentor much.

[whitesoxfan99]

Rondo expected to get bought out today, barring a last minute trade. Supposedly he is interested in mentoring the young players, but it appears Bulls are going to head another direction. Another report out their that Bulls are going to sign European PG Milos Teodosic. 30 year old point guard who is a good shooter and has played well in international competition against NBA players. Not sure how it helps in the overall rebuild, but evidently he wants to play for the Bulls.

 

It takes minutes away from young players you need to evaluate and helps you win meaningless games. I'm not a Kris Dunn fan but I'd still rather him get a ton of playing time and see what he has than sign a 30 year old PG to a rebuilding team. I might feel differently if I had any confidence at all the Bulls would move Teodosic for future assets if he actually shows himself to be a good NBA player.

Edited June 30, 2017 by whitesoxfan99

[illinilaw08]

It takes minutes away from young players you need to evaluate and helps you win meaningless games. I'm not a Kris Dunn but I'd still rather him get a ton of playing time and see what he has than sign a 30 year old PG to a rebuilding team. I might feel differently if I had any confidence at all the Bulls would move Teodosic for future assets if he actually shows himself to be a good NBA player.

 

Could not agree more. The 30 year old Euro point made sense if you kept Jimmy and were trying to find lightning in a bottle. On a rebuilding team? Absolutely not.

[iamshack]

Could not agree more. The 30 year old Euro point made sense if you kept Jimmy and were trying to find lightning in a bottle. On a rebuilding team? Absolutely not.

Or maybe if you had $3.5 million in cash sitting around because you SOLD Jordan Bell

[southsider2k5]

Or maybe if you had $3.5 million in cash sitting around because you SOLD Jordan Bell

 

Plus another 10-13 million once Rondo is gone.

[southsider2k5]

Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley 20h20 hours ago

 

Sources: John Calipari reached out to NYK through intermediaries to express interest in presidency. More: http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0672213947528516541-4 …

 

[iamshack]

Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley 20h20 hours ago

 

Sources: John Calipari reached out to NYK through intermediaries to express interest in presidency. More: http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0672213947528516541-4 …

This would be awesome.

[bmags]

That would be really interesting. You can hate the way Cal exploited freshman rule in college bball but he has a lot of relationships and it could be interesting but more likely spectacular failure because Knicks.

[Chisoxfn]

Should the Bulls play in this free agent market? Yes, we just flipped Butler...but should the Bulls make a run at any of the free agents on this market? Essentially, move Butler to get more assets (with upside) while then using his contract today to get a player of similar (albeit slightly lesser value) such as Gordon Hayward or do you get Blake Griffin?

 

I know everyone on this site is pro tank and therefor we should wait two years to sign someone...but next year there are some quality free agents and another year from now more....I guess the question is what is the pacing / approach to do it. If Rondo opted out and with Butler gone...I think we could give Gordon or Blake max (separate question is whether they are worth it) and surround them with the other players...waiting a year for Wade to come off the books before flipping him for another free agent.

 

I'm not suggesting it...but just throwing it out there given speculation that there is a 4th team interested in Hayward. I'm also not saying any of those players would even want to come here either.

[southsider2k5]

Sean Highkin‏Verified account @highkin 5m5 minutes ago

 

I’m told the Bulls are likely to absorb Rondo’s full $3 million cap hit this year, rather than stretch it out over the next three years.

 

K.C. Johnson‏Verified account @KCJHoop 7m7 minutes ago

 

Down to 1 Alpha. The Bulls officially waive Rajon Rondo and Isaiah Canaan.

 

[bmags]

Should the Bulls play in this free agent market? Yes, we just flipped Butler...but should the Bulls make a run at any of the free agents on this market? Essentially, move Butler to get more assets (with upside) while then using his contract today to get a player of similar (albeit slightly lesser value) such as Gordon Hayward or do you get Blake Griffin?

 

I know everyone on this site is pro tank and therefor we should wait two years to sign someone...but next year there are some quality free agents and another year from now more....I guess the question is what is the pacing / approach to do it. If Rondo opted out and with Butler gone...I think we could give Gordon or Blake max (separate question is whether they are worth it) and surround them with the other players...waiting a year for Wade to come off the books before flipping him for another free agent.

 

I'm not suggesting it...but just throwing it out there given speculation that there is a 4th team interested in Hayward. I'm also not saying any of those players would even want to come here either.

 

This roster is 1 known good quality player. And he is 35. Some of these guys may turn out good but you may as well figure out who is actually before deciding this is the roster you are going to roll with + 1 pretty good player in Hayward.

[Chisoxfn]

Sean Highkin‏Verified account @highkin 5m5 minutes ago

 

I’m told the Bulls are likely to absorb Rondo’s full $3 million cap hit this year, rather than stretch it out over the next three years.

 

K.C. Johnson‏Verified account @KCJHoop 7m7 minutes ago

 

Down to 1 Alpha. The Bulls officially waive Rajon Rondo and Isaiah Canaan.

Which is good. Stretching it would be ridiculous. Yes, even $1M in extra cap space in future years can be valuable.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Should the Bulls play in this free agent market? Yes, we just flipped Butler...but should the Bulls make a run at any of the free agents on this market? Essentially, move Butler to get more assets (with upside) while then using his contract today to get a player of similar (albeit slightly lesser value) such as Gordon Hayward or do you get Blake Griffin?

 

I know everyone on this site is pro tank and therefor we should wait two years to sign someone...but next year there are some quality free agents and another year from now more....I guess the question is what is the pacing / approach to do it. If Rondo opted out and with Butler gone...I think we could give Gordon or Blake max (separate question is whether they are worth it) and surround them with the other players...waiting a year for Wade to come off the books before flipping him for another free agent.

 

I'm not suggesting it...but just throwing it out there given speculation that there is a 4th team interested in Hayward. I'm also not saying any of those players would even want to come here either.

 

That was what I suggested on draft night. Going after a near max level FA this year could possibly put us in better position for the 2018 free agency, where if we deal Lopez, we could possibly afford two more near max players (depending how Lavine's extension is structured). Say if we sign Blake, Lavine returns to form, and one of Markkanen, Dunn, or Portis turns into a solid starter, this team suddenly looks like a much better landing spot in 2018.

[Chicago White Sox]

How about not gambling on signing a bunch of stars when it's never worked before (despite already having at least one star in place) and instead trying to draft and develop our own stars no matter how painful that may be. We didn't trade Butler to immediately sign a lesser version of him and go right back to NBA hell, or at least I hope not.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chicago White Sox

[Kyyle23]

Stars aren't coming to Chicago, this front office is toxic.

[fathom]

Stars aren't coming to Chicago, this front office is toxic.

 

Won't help with Butler and Gaines (very popular with professional athletes) bashing Gar

[Quin]

Well Celtics is f***ed up.

[whitesoxfan99]

Well Celtics is f***ed up.

 

How do you not beat a Oladipo/Sabonis offer if you are Boston.

[Jerksticks]

If anybody wants to explain the NBA cap and what typical salaries are like I would love the schooling. Football makes bo sense to me either.

[Quin]

How do you not beat a Oladipo/Sabonis offer if you are Boston.

 

Or Dunn/LaVine/Lauri

 

Like thosee vaunted assets mean s*** if they don't capitalize. Add PG or Butler along with Hayward and youve got a shot. Otherwise...nope.