2017-18 official NBA discussion thread

[Jenksismyhero]

1) Cleveland traded a defensive liability in Kyrie himself. Significant downgrade in that department? No.

 

 

OK, but IT is still an injured guy who is a one year rental. I wouldn't want any part of deciding whether he is going to be my center piece player going forward. If he's not, then what value does he really bring? Yeah, for the Cavs its a good one year rental because they're a contender and he adds to that. For the Bulls he'd be worthless.

 

2) Role players like Crowder gets overlooked, but his +/- past 2 years look pretty good.

 

Great, he's a role player. Do the Bulls need role players? No, they need prospects.

 

3) Player like Zizic may never play in there NBA. Well, you MAY very well be wrong

 

4) Nets is bad, at no worst top 5.

 

We'll see.

 

6) Need this forum to remind you how players who rely on athleticism come back from ACL injuries?

 

Sure, it's a gamble. But again, who's offering up young prospects for super stars? What other deal was out there to do that?

 

7) Markkanen at no worst is Niko 2.0, who has absolutely received no interest in this offseason.

 

So what, he's been a decent NBA player. He's a contributor. And again, he's a young prospect for a young, rebuilding team.

 

8) Dunn is literally the second worst rookie in the league last season. He was old, and thought as a reach by most.

 

I think it's a bit early to give up on him. He very well could tank. Upside is still there IMO.

 

9) We gave up Jimmy Butler who is no doubt a borderline Top 10 player on the league. Unlike George he has at least 2 years left on his deal. THEN we had to give up our first rounder too? GMAB.

 

Let's say Cavs ended up getting the 7th pick in 2018 draft, would you trade IT, Crowder, Zizic and he 16th pick for Lavine and Dunn? Not to mention Cavs will almost certainly get better than 7th pick, and Butler > Irving. The two trades are not even close.

 

I 100% agree throwing in the 1st rounder and selling the 2nd were horrible decisions. But that's not what we're debating here. I would happily take what the Bulls got over what the Celtics got. What the Cavs got is good for them, not a rebuilding Bulls team.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

If you think the purpose of trading Butler is to get equal NBA talent I guess I could see that, but if the purpose is to get the best future assets to set off rebuilding a championship team, I don't know how you don't see the unprotected Nets pick as an example of the single most important thing the bulls needed to start collecting. Instead at the end of draft night they had less picks than when they started.

 

How they are still around...

 

They got a #7. I think the Nets pick will be in that range (unless the ping pong Gods say otherwise). I don't see it being demonstrably worse, especially if what the pundits say is true, i.e., that this upcoming draft won't be as good.

 

[bmags]

They got a #7. I think the Nets pick will be in that range (unless the ping pong Gods say otherwise). I don't see it being demonstrably worse, especially if what the pundits say is true, i.e., that this upcoming draft won't be as good.

 

They didn't get a #7, they traded UP to a #7. They gave up their first round pick to move up to a back end top 10. Had the bulls received that, they would be looking at 2 top ten picks next year. And if they didn't like that draft, they could spin that asset off for future drafts or players they preferred. It is very valuable.

[jenksycat]

They got a #7. I think the Nets pick will be in that range (unless the ping pong Gods say otherwise). I don't see it being demonstrably worse, especially if what the pundits say is true, i.e., that this upcoming draft won't be as good.

 

....and gave up the #16. A top 10 player in the league allowed them to move up 9 spots in the draft and acquire 2 other damaged goods players. It was a panic garbage trade that does nothing for their future unless we got Dirk 2.0 & Levine doesn't need his athleticism to become a star. Huge gamble to make that didn't need to be done.

[southsider2k5]

They got a short, 28 or 29 year old PG "star" who can't play defense and who has legitimate hip problems on a one year deal. He's not even going to play a full season. They're going to have to decide whether to offer him a max deal, or near max deal, to be their franchise player once Lebron leaves. I wouldn't want the Bulls to be in that position a year from now. That's a hard, hard pass.

 

They got a 27 year old Jae Crowder, an ok role player who can't shoot very well and has had his own problems with injuries (ankle) that Celtics fans will tell you limited his defense (the one reason you would want him)

 

They got Ante Aizic, someone who will probably never play.

 

And they got the Brooklyn pick, which may or may not be great. The Nets won't be good, but the east will be super s***ty and the Nets have no incentive to tank. The Bulls, Pacers, Hawks, Kings, Magic are going to be worse. Are the Lakers really going to win 25-30 games? It'll be a lottery pick, but not necessarily a top 7 pick.

 

On the other hand, the Bulls got Zach Lavine, a 22 year old super-athlete who averaged 19, 3 and 3 last year and has consistently gotten better each year he's played. The ACL tear is worrisome but plenty of guys have come back from it. They also got a big, beefy PG prospect that had a bad rookie season playing under Thibs (not uncommon) but still has tons of potential, and the #7 pick in the draft who at worst will be Niko 2.0, i.e., an ok role player.

 

I don't see how, in any way, this is a substantially worse deal than what the Celtics got.

 

They got the NBA's leading scorer. As much as you want to undersell Thomas, he is Derrick Rose in his prime.

[Boogua]

They got the NBA's leading scorer. As much as you want to undersell Thomas, he is Derrick Rose in his prime.

Name the price and I will bet that he plays less than 60 games and is not top 10 in scoring next year.

 

As much as you want to oversell Thomas, it's likely he is Derrick Rose after the knee injuries.

[Jordan4life_2007]

They got the NBA's leading scorer. As much as you want to undersell Thomas, he is Derrick Rose in his prime.

 

Westbrook led the league in scoring. And I know 2011 was a lifetime ago. But GMAB. Rose > Thomas without hesitation.

[Balta1701]

The front office pretty much said they jumped at the first offer they liked. Thats pretty bad. And when you put everything in perspective, including the Taj/McBuckets trade, they have hamstrung this team for the foreseeable future.

 

Prior to all of this, people said that no free agents would come to the bulls(and they didnt, aside from a washed up Wade who is coasting on a golden parachute). Why does anyone think that all this cap space after next year is gonna change that? Like anyone doesnt know that the front office f***s over coaching staffs and players alike?

 

Garbage. All of it. None of us should give the bulls the time of day this season

I think rebuilding is the right decision for the Bulls...and if that was the best offer on the table they should have said f*** it we're going for the 8th seed again.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Bulls have hired Doug Collins as a Senior Advisor that will report directly to John Paxson.

[bmags]

I respect Collins basketball mind, hard to know whether to care just due to the kind of bespoke nature of "Advisor" positions.

[Chisoxfn]

Bulls have hired Doug Collins as a Senior Advisor that will report directly to John Paxson.

This is a fantastic hire.

[southsider2k5]

Bulls have hired Doug Collins as a Senior Advisor that will report directly to John Paxson.

 

So I wonder if he is here to potentially replace Forman or Hoiberg?

[Chisoxfn]

So I wonder if he is here to potentially replace Forman or Hoiberg?

I'm presuming both. I'm guessing it is someone that Pax (and JR) think they can trust who can give them a straight story. Hopefully Pax was on board bringing him in because that will make it a worthwhile role...if he was brought in by JR to be a spy, that wouldn't work well, but I also just don't see Collins doing that.

[Dick Allen]

I'm presuming both. I'm guessing it is someone that Pax (and JR) think they can trust who can give them a straight story. Hopefully Pax was on board bringing him in because that will make it a worthwhile role...if he was brought in by JR to be a spy, that wouldn't work well, but I also just don't see Collins doing that.

Which is interesting. Collins was initially hired many years ago by Jerry Krause to scout the Bulls independently. Krause, which I think is genius, wanted an opinion from someone with no horse in the race, on his roster. He was so impressed, he made him the coach.

 

I don't think he will be replacing anyone. He's 66. I think this job with the Bulls and watch NU hoops pretty much does it for him at this point. Maybe he's the next Jerry West. He might be the one to get through to the Reinsdorfs that at least Gar (I also think Pax is a problem) needs to be doing something else.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Dick Allen

[bmags]

the more years go by, the better Krause looks. Who knows how it would affected his roster decisions, but he would have been much harder to vilify had he had today's roster cost certainty.

[Kyyle23]

Open letter to the Chicago Bulls

[ron883]

Open letter to the Chicago Bulls

"Joakim Noah the hardest worker in a long time."

 

Yeah, ok. The guy who constantly came into camp out of shape. The guy who never added ANYTHING to his game? He relied purely on athleticism and on court effort. That is why his game tanked so hard when he lost athleticism.

 

He tried as hard as anybody while on the court. I'll give him that. But joe was not a hard worker.

[Kyyle23]

"Joakim Noah the hardest worker in a long time."

 

Yeah, ok. The guy who constantly came into camp out of shape. The guy who never added ANYTHING to his game? He relied purely on athleticism and on court effort. That is why his game tanked so hard when he lost athleticism.

 

He tried as hard as anybody while on the court. I'll give him that. But joe was not a hard worker.

 

The Noah stuff was kind of odd, I had no problem watching him walk last year because his knees were done. Everything else i agreed with

[Chisoxfn]

I don't understand how hiring Doug Collins sends you out. Doug Collins, a legitimately good dude in the NBA. Maybe not the best coach in the world (but solid and someone who knows the game), but extremely well respected and a man who has JR's ear. He also has very strong relationships in the league in general (and since everyone, rightfully so, knocks the lack of respect Gar has in this league and probably to a large extent Paxson), the fact that the Bulls are bringing in someone who has a very good reputation around league circles...is a good thing.

 

Sure people can want Gar/Pax fired and this might actually be the first step to that. IT could also be nothing but a bunch of hot air with Collins doing nothing at all....but even then, I can't see this being a BAD move. Collins is going to report directly to Paxson which is a good thing. If anything, I think this puts the Bulls one step closer from moving away from Gar potentially (or heck maybe even doing something more dramatic). It could be Paxson is getting ready to leave (retire) and Collins is here to advise and get his feet wet before leading the charge to potentially make a massive shift in the front office.

[Kyyle23]

I don't understand how hiring Doug Collins sends you out. Doug Collins, a legitimately good dude in the NBA. Maybe not the best coach in the world (but solid and someone who knows the game), but extremely well respected and a man who has JR's ear. He also has very strong relationships in the league in general (and since everyone, rightfully so, knocks the lack of respect Gar has in this league and probably to a large extent Paxson), the fact that the Bulls are bringing in someone who has a very good reputation around league circles...is a good thing.

 

Sure people can want Gar/Pax fired and this might actually be the first step to that. IT could also be nothing but a bunch of hot air with Collins doing nothing at all....but even then, I can't see this being a BAD move.

 

Seriously Jason, what is Doug Collins really gonna do? Its a shield hire. Its a "hey everyone look at this guy everyone likes and has a history with this organization" hire. He isnt a scout. He isnt signing players. he isnt recruiting players. He is gonna be a figurehead and watch some games and maybe say some things in meetings every once in a while.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

Seriously Jason, what is Doug Collins really gonna do? Its a shield hire. Its a "hey everyone look at this guy everyone likes and has a history with this organization" hire. He isnt a scout. He isnt signing players. he isnt recruiting players. He is gonna be a figurehead and watch some games and maybe say some things in meetings every once in a while.

Magic Johnson became advisor before the entire front office in LA was whacked. There is nothing bad about bringing in Doug Collins, nothing. People are going to whine...its what people do best, but I give credit to where credit is due, this is a smart move by the Bulls. Collins is a smart basketball mind and extremely well respected. Him being a part of this organization does nothing but help. Maybe it only helps a little...but I don't see it hurting.

 

I see this akin to the White Sox bringing in someone like Tony LaRussa as a special advisor. It would be a fantastic move, even if he played just a small role, that type of mind / perspective would be valuable.

[Kyyle23]

Magic Johnson became advisor before the entire front office in LA was whacked. There is nothing bad about bringing in Doug Collins, nothing. People are going to whine...its what people do best, but I give credit to where credit is due, this is a smart move by the Bulls. Collins is a smart basketball mind and extremely well respected. Him being a part of this organization does nothing but help. Maybe it only helps a little...but I don't see it hurting.

 

I see this akin to the White Sox bringing in someone like Tony LaRussa as a special advisor. It would be a fantastic move, even if he played just a small role, that type of mind / perspective would be valuable.

 

Up until this past season, I never whined about this front office. I even defended them. Everything they have done is to deflect responsibility off of their terrible moves and put it on everyone but themselves. This isnt Magic Johnson nor is it Tony Larussa. This is a guy who repeatedly gets canned for wearing on players and front offices. Doug Collins is a brilliant basketball mind, but this is a sweet retirement-not-retiring gig for him. He even said its about being close and being able to watch Chris coach and also watch bulls games in the stands.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Up until this past season, I never whined about this front office. I even defended them. Everything they have done is to deflect responsibility off of their terrible moves and put it on everyone but themselves. This isnt Magic Johnson nor is it Tony Larussa. This is a guy who repeatedly gets canned for wearing on players and front offices. Doug Collins is a brilliant basketball mind, but this is a sweet retirement-not-retiring gig for him. He even said its about being close and being able to watch Chris coach and also watch bulls games in the stands.

Which is perfect. You have access to his basketball mind, yet he's distanced enough not to wear on anyone. Even the guys who he supposedly wore out, later realized he did them some good. Michael even hired him in Washington to coach.

 

But, I'm with you if GarPax don't listen or if Collins doesn't have the Reinsdorfs' ears well enough to where if he says one or both have to go, and one or more will go, nothing will change.

 

It's better than nothing. Gar being replaced by anyone, IMO would be better. Pax shown the door, would be better. But it's something. To me Doug Collins is a basketball genius. He was probably a little too intense to be a long term coach. I remember when he coached the Bulls and was sweating harder than the players. But nothing bad can come of this except nothing, and we were already sitting here with that.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

Which is perfect. You have access to his basketball mind, yet he's distanced enough not to wear on anyone. Even the guys who he supposedly wore out, later realized he did them some good. Michael even hired him in Washington to coach.

 

But, I'm with you if GarPax don't listen or if Collins doesn't have the Reinsdorfs' ears well enough to where if he says one or both have to go, and one or more will go, nothing will change.

 

It's better than nothing. Gar being replaced by anyone, IMO would be better. Pax shown the door, would be better. But it's something. To me Doug Collins is a basketball genius. He was probably a little too intense to be a long term coach. I remember when he coached the Bulls and was sweating harder than the players. But nothing bad can come of this except nothing, and we were already sitting here with that.

Exactly.

[Kyyle23]

Paxson on Mully and Hanley at 8:30