2017-18 official NBA discussion thread

[bmags]

If I had become a GM (this holds even if I was GM because my owner dad gave me jobs and then i just was nice to the other rich people in the league and so got another job) and my wife got me fired because of tweets I'm not sure my marriage would last.

[RockRaines]

53 minutes ago, Boogua said:

I won't comment on the insane recency bias.

He was a monster last night though.

Comment all you want.  I have a giant picture of MJ above my desk that says "the best there ever was."  Its hard for me to argue against Lebron.  Hes incredible.

[thxfrthmmrs]

9 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

 

I dont think Ive said anything about super teams. Nor have I said anything about 6 rings. Just that Lebron was the best player on the court.

It was the comment that I originally responded to, which you responded to.

[thxfrthmmrs]

2 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

Comment all you want.  I have a giant picture of MJ above my desk that says "the best there ever was."  Its hard for me to argue against Lebron.  Hes incredible.

See my comment from the last page. It's not Lebron's fault but he just so happens to play in an era with the best floor spacing we have ever seen, as a result he enjoys the luxury of facing more 1-1 defense, more switches to weaker defensive players on defense, and way more efficient shooters to give him credit for assist. We will never know how Lebron would have fared in the Jordan era or visa versa, but facts are Jordan played in a era with less floor spacing (which gives MJ a huge leg up in these debates IMO), more double and triple teams, and more physical defense and still posted the best offensive stat line of all time per game wise (PPG, PER, WS, etc), so there is no doubt in my mind he is still GOAT. Lebron may be second or third now though.

[Boogua]

8 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

Comment all you want.  I have a giant picture of MJ above my desk that says "the best there ever was."  Its hard for me to argue against Lebron.  Hes incredible.

It's not that difficult. All the advanced stats are very close (Jordan still usually has the advantage). Lebron just has longevity at this point.

They're very close numbers wise except Jordan never had a 2011 Mavericks series. That pretty much ensures he'll always be behind Jordan.

[bmags]

I think at the very least people should spend this year and next just enjoying Lebron without feeling a need to counter with a MJ narrative. As with Michael, there is lebron right now, and everyone else. You can't appreciate how much better he is through stats. You have to watch a guy on a team full of idiots do everything possible to get them to the finish line.

[RockRaines]

34 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

See my comment from the last page. It's not Lebron's fault but he just so happens to play in an era with the best floor spacing we have ever seen, as a result he enjoys the luxury of facing more 1-1 defense, more switches to weaker defensive players on defense, and way more efficient shooters to give him credit for assist. We will never know how Lebron would have fared in the Jordan era or visa versa, but facts are Jordan played in a era with less floor spacing (which gives MJ a huge leg up in these debates IMO), more double and triple teams, and more physical defense and still posted the best offensive stat line of all time per game wise (PPG, PER, WS, etc), so there is no doubt in my mind he is still GOAT. Lebron may be second or third now though.

The overall skill level of the players now is night and day with some of the shit that was trotted out in the 80's and 90's.  Everyone likes to point to how "physical" the game was then, against certain teams, sure.  Having Pippen next to him is a HUGE advantage compared to some of the shit Lebron has had to play with.  I dont recall Jordan ever single handedly carrying his team to the championship like Lebron has done several times.  Its unreal.

[RockRaines]

43 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think at the very least people should spend this year and next just enjoying Lebron without feeling a need to counter with a MJ narrative. As with Michael, there is lebron right now, and everyone else. You can't appreciate how much better he is through stats. You have to watch a guy on a team full of idiots do everything possible to get them to the finish line.

Im in awe with how competitive they are with that roster of crap.

[Boogua]

He has 3 rings. I don't think any of them were won singlehandedly. Getting to the finals without beating one hall of famer is impressive I guess, but let's see how many games they win against a real team.

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Boogua said:

He has 3 rings. I don't think any of them were won singlehandedly. Getting to the finals without beating one hall of famer is impressive I guess, but let's see how many games they win against a real team.

I mean seriously.  He won with 2 HOF players in Miami.  He also won with Kyrie and Kevin Love (who was a top 10 NBA player until he got with LeBron) in Cleveland.

[thxfrthmmrs]

19 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

The overall skill level of the players now is night and day with some of the shit that was trotted out in the 80's and 90's.  Everyone likes to point to how "physical" the game was then, against certain teams, sure.  Having Pippen next to him is a HUGE advantage compared to some of the shit Lebron has had to play with.  I dont recall Jordan ever single handedly carrying his team to the championship like Lebron has done several times.  Its unreal.

I swear this board now has short term memories. Did we forget on the teams Lebron only won championships with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love? All all stars or all NBA players. The 07 team and this 18 team is when he got to the Finals with a relatively weak team. But the competition he had this year in the East is historically bad, and it still took him multiple close game 7s to get here. I wouldn't same Jordan wouldn't have been able to do this. Granted, how good a fight Cavs put up against this Warriors team may sway my opinion.

[Chisoxfn]

12 hours ago, Steve9347 said:

That was legit horseshit. Why is that play the only thing they can review. The NBA can fuck off. I don’t even know why I bother. I hate the Warriors more than any team in history. 

It was a borderline play but I can't see how you overturn that call.  Either way, George Hill hits that free throw and we might not be talking about any of it.  Poor Lebron...man that dude is special.  

[SoxAce]

1 hour ago, Boogua said:

They're very close numbers wise except Jordan never had a 2011 Mavericks series. That pretty much ensures he'll always be behind Jordan.

And Wade is a better player than Pippen. 

 

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I mean seriously.  He won with 2 HOF players in Miami.  He also won with Kyrie and Kevin Love (who was a top 10 NBA player until he got with LeBron) in Cleveland.

3 (Ray Allen, the guy who took the shot that saved his legacy)

[Chisoxfn]

11 hours ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Lol at that Thompson ejection.  That was a normal foul.  Unbelievably pathetic job by the refs in game 1.

I don't even know if it was a foul. It was a horrid call.  

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

And Wade is a better player than Pippen. 

 

3 (Ray Allen, the guy who took the shot that saved his legacy)

Fair, though Allen was pretty well washed up by then.

[SoxAce]

This is a good read on Twitter btw.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cam_Zodd/status/994756954403885057

This guy breaks down every Jordan year incredibly.

[SoxAce]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Fair, though Allen was pretty well washed up by then.

No different than people saying Jordan had Rodman who was well past his prime as well. 

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

No different than people saying Jordan had Rodman who was well past his prime as well. 

Having saw both of them pretty well, Rodman was WAY better as a Bull than Allen was as a member of the Heat.

[SoxAce]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Having saw both of them pretty well, Rodman was WAY better as a Bull than Allen was as a member of the Heat.

Not arguing that. Both guys played key parts in their teams winning championships.

[southsider2k5]

 

[RockRaines]

52 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I swear this board now has short term memories. Did we forget on the teams Lebron only won championships with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love? All all stars or all NBA players. The 07 team and this 18 team is when he got to the Finals with a relatively weak team. But the competition he had this year in the East is historically bad, and it still took him multiple close game 7s to get here. I wouldn't same Jordan wouldn't have been able to do this. Granted, how good a fight Cavs put up against this Warriors team may sway my opinion.

These last few years in Cle are amazing to me.  I am not sure he will win any more titles, but carrying these teams the way he has is pretty amazing.  Unfortunately for him, he has to face this Warriors team instead of the ghost of Clyde Drexler.

[illinilaw08]

38 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I swear this board now has short term memories. Did we forget on the teams Lebron only won championships with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love? All all stars or all NBA players. The 07 team and this 18 team is when he got to the Finals with a relatively weak team. But the competition he had this year in the East is historically bad, and it still took him multiple close game 7s to get here. I wouldn't same Jordan wouldn't have been able to do this. Granted, how good a fight Cavs put up against this Warriors team may sway my opinion.

This year's Lebron - even in a pretty weak East - has no equivalent with any Jordan Finals roster.  The second best player on this team is Kevin Love - a really good offensive player who can't stay on the floor defensively late in games.  Pippen was always the perfect complement to Jordan - a guy who could take some of the scoring load and - probably more importantly - all of the defensive load off of Jordan.  Could Jordan have made the Finals without Pippen, without Grant or Rodman, and with a guy like Kevin Love as the only other above average guy on the roster?  Maybe?

I don't know why there's this automatic need to tear down Lebron.  Leaving aside the Mavericks Finals - which was 7 years ago (as a quick aside, I don't get why the Mavs series is a killer for Lebron but Jordan leaving basketball for 2 years doesn't impact Jordan's legacy) - Lebron has lost to (a) a Spurs team whose core won 4 titles; and (b) a Golden State team that ranks among the best of all-time (and Lebron beat them the year that they won 73 games).  Simply put, Jordan - for all his greatness - never had to face as stacked of a roster in the Finals as Lebron has faced in the Warriors over the last 4 years.  He never had to face a team as accomplished as the Spurs teams in the Finals.

That's not to take anything away from Jordan - at a minimum, I think he and Lebron are 1a and 1b all-time - but 6-0 vs. 3-5 in the Finals is an argument that demands context.  Further, the teammate argument always seems to forget that Pippen was a top-10 player in the league for the majority of the Bulls' Finals runs, and each Jordan title team had an All-Star level power forward to do some dirty work.  Jordan had a pretty strong supporting cast.

[thxfrthmmrs]

12 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

This year's Lebron - even in a pretty weak East - has no equivalent with any Jordan Finals roster.  The second best player on this team is Kevin Love - a really good offensive player who can't stay on the floor defensively late in games.  Pippen was always the perfect complement to Jordan - a guy who could take some of the scoring load and - probably more importantly - all of the defensive load off of Jordan.  Could Jordan have made the Finals without Pippen, without Grant or Rodman, and with a guy like Kevin Love as the only other above average guy on the roster?  Maybe?

I don't know why there's this automatic need to tear down Lebron.  Leaving aside the Mavericks Finals - which was 7 years ago (as a quick aside, I don't get why the Mavs series is a killer for Lebron but Jordan leaving basketball for 2 years doesn't impact Jordan's legacy) - Lebron has lost to (a) a Spurs team whose core won 4 titles; and (b) a Golden State team that ranks among the best of all-time (and Lebron beat them the year that they won 73 games).  Simply put, Jordan - for all his greatness - never had to face as stacked of a roster in the Finals as Lebron has faced in the Warriors over the last 4 years.  He never had to face a team as accomplished as the Spurs teams in the Finals.

That's not to take anything away from Jordan - at a minimum, I think he and Lebron are 1a and 1b all-time - but 6-0 vs. 3-5 in the Finals is an argument that demands context.  Further, the teammate argument always seems to forget that Pippen was a top-10 player in the league for the majority of the Bulls' Finals runs, and each Jordan title team had an All-Star level power forward to do some dirty work.  Jordan had a pretty strong supporting cast.

No one is saying Jordan had no help. But people saying Lebron has done so much with no help is not put context into the situation. This is the first time in over 10 years where Lebron made the finals without a stacked team. He did it against a pacers team who might not have been a playoff team in the west, and a depleted Celtics team. If we want to say Lebron, for the the time in over 10 years, beat the East without much help, let's put more context in there. In terms of getting the most out of the team, I think what James Harden did with the Rockets was more impressive, for example.

Edited June 1, 2018 by thxfrthmmrs

[whitesoxfan99]

1 hour ago, RockRaines said:

These last few years in Cle are amazing to me.  I am not sure he will win any more titles, but carrying these teams the way he has is pretty amazing.  Unfortunately for him, he has to face this Warriors team instead of the ghost of Clyde Drexler.

Before this year he had plenty of talent around him.  Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are both really good players (Irving at times a superstar) and then you have had guys like JR Smith and Thompson who were really good role players.

This year has been unbelievable since JR Smith has fallen off badly, Thompson was hurt and not as good when healthy and you no longer have Irving.  The east being a complete dumpster fire the last 4 years helps quite a bit though.  Outside of LeBron the East has been early 2000s bad the last 4 years when you had garbage teams like the Kidd Nets and Iverson 76ers making title runs. 

[caulfield12]

If not for Draymond’s technicals, Curry’s injury and Irving’s jumper in 2016....granted, that block on Iguodala from behind was the signature play of the series.

Irving/Love are not that far off from Pippen/Grant/past-peak Rodman.

We can easily compare 2007 Cavs with Jordan’s first couple of Bulls’ playoff teams, and this year’s Cavs.