How do you rate the rebuild so far?

[Two-Gun Pete]

Probably the number one thing allowing that rebuild was the cheap extensions. Hahn did a solid job but the contracts was what made those assets so desirable.

 

I also like the anderson extension even though I am not a fan of his hitting profile. If he doesn't work out some millions are lost but if it works you have a cheap asset to keep or trade.

I don't mean to bury TA, but lets put to rest this idea that his gift of a contract extension was anything at all like the previous extensions offered to others in the past:

 

Prior to his extension, Sale pitched ~300 IP over 2 1/2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he was a 1st round pick, before which he pitched 3 years on a scholarship in D1.

 

Prior to his extension, Quintana pitched ~300 IP over 2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he pitched for 8 seasons in MiLB.

 

Prior to his extension, Eaton had had ~900 PA over 1 full season here, & 2 cups of coffee in AZ. Prior to that, he'd played 5 seasons in MiLB; prior to that, he played 3 seasons on scholarship in D1.

 

 

By contrast, Tim Anderson was gifted financial independence after a measly 99 or so games, & 55 AAA games. He wasn't even on scholarship when he went to juco, & he'd only played 2 years in HS. On balance, he hadn't done enough to CONCLUSIVELY prove that he EARNED the contract; he was GIVEN it.

 

So, when someone wants I conflate the gift to Anderson with the contracts that Sale, Q, & Eaton EARNED, I have to roll my eyes. Don't get me wrong, as a Sox fan, I want TA to become a star. But his contract extension was premature at best, & ill-advised, at worst.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dominikk85]

I think their philosophy is it's easier to coach up defense than it is to teach someone how to make more consistent and/or harder contact.

 

You can coach defense but not athleticism. There are only so many spots for dh and 1b.

 

I still like they got collins and burger but eventually they will need guys who can fill the up the middle positions.

 

You can play powerfull corner types out of position to gain offense but that hasn't really worked for oakland who tried that.

 

Power and pitching can work (mets) but ideally a team that leans on pitching should have good defense to support the pitchers. Cubs and dodgers are very good at making their pitchers better with great D.

 

The sox don't need glove wizards, just solid defenders who can hit.

[witesoxfan]

I don't mean to bury TA, but lets put to rest this idea that his gift of a contract extension was anything at all like the previous extensions offered to others in the past:

 

Prior to his extension, Sale pitched ~300 IP over 2 1/2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he was a 1st round pick, before which he pitched 3 years on a scholarship in D1.

 

Prior to his extension, Quintana pitched ~300 IP over 2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he pitched for 8 seasons in MiLB.

 

Prior to his extension, Eaton had had ~900 PA over 1 full season here, & 2 cups of coffee in AZ. Prior to that, he'd played 5 seasons in MiLB; prior to that, he played 3 seasons on scholarship in D1.

 

 

By contrast, Tim Anderson was gifted financial independence after a measly 99 or so games, & 55 AAA games. He wasn't even on scholarship when he went to juco, & he'd only played 2 years in HS. On balance, he hadn't done enough to CONCLUSIVELY prove that he EARNED the contract; he was GIVEN it.

 

So, when someone wants I conflate the gift to Anderson with the contracts that Sale, Q, & Eaton EARNED, I have to roll my eyes. Don't get me wrong, as a Sox fan, I want TA to become a star. But his contract extension was premature at best, & ill-advised, at worst.

 

It's $24 million over 6 years. Relax hombre.

[Buehrlesque]

I don't mean to bury TA, but lets put to rest this idea that his gift of a contract extension was anything at all like the previous extensions offered to others in the past:

 

Prior to his extension, Sale pitched ~300 IP over 2 1/2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he was a 1st round pick, before which he pitched 3 years on a scholarship in D1.

 

Prior to his extension, Quintana pitched ~300 IP over 2 seasons in The Show. Prior to that, he pitched for 8 seasons in MiLB.

 

Prior to his extension, Eaton had had ~900 PA over 1 full season here, & 2 cups of coffee in AZ. Prior to that, he'd played 5 seasons in MiLB; prior to that, he played 3 seasons on scholarship in D1.

 

 

By contrast, Tim Anderson was gifted financial independence after a measly 99 or so games, & 55 AAA games. He wasn't even on scholarship when he went to juco, & he'd only played 2 years in HS. On balance, he hadn't done enough to CONCLUSIVELY prove that he EARNED the contract; he was GIVEN it.

 

So, when someone wants I conflate the gift to Anderson with the contracts that Sale, Q, & Eaton EARNED, I have to roll my eyes. Don't get me wrong, as a Sox fan, I want TA to become a star. But his contract extension was premature at best, & ill-advised, at worst.

I agree that TA didn't "earn" the extension, but that doesn't make it a bad move. The Sox are (hopefully) going to have a lot of young, pre-arb talent coming up in the next couple of years. The more they can sign to these kinds of extensions, the better. Plus, as a bit of a silver lining, Anderson's struggles may help justify other players signing these kinds of deals and locking in some money. They can't all be ultra team-friendly homeruns. If everyone who signed an extension like this outplayed their salary, why would any player ever do it again?

[Two-Gun Pete]

It's $24 million over 6 years. Relax hombre.

And you're missing the point. Nowhere did I mention a dollar amount.

 

What makes the Anderson extension a bad one is that they did not allow him to play long enough to be sure enough that he is a good player to give him a contract. Sale, Q, & Eaton all PROVED their caliber over several seasons; TA only played part of one season prior to his gift.

 

That aside, they've done him no favors in developing him. His scant pre-professional background & lack of having played anything other than SS means that he'll either make it as a starter, or be a waste of money.

 

There is no option to make him a utility player, because he's never played anywhere else but SS. (Not his fault, so much as it was the fault of Capra & others involved with the farm system in the org.)

Edited July 21, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[Rowand44]

And you're missing the point. Nowhere did I mention a dollar amount.

 

What makes the Anderson extension a bad one is that they did not allow him to play long enough to be sure enough that he is a good player to give him a contract. Sale, Q, & Eaton all PROVED their caliber over several seasons; TA only played part of one season prior to his gift.

 

That aside, they've done him no favors in developing him. His scant pre-professional background & lack of having played anything other than SS means that he'll either make it as a starter, or be a waste of money.

 

There is no option to make him a utility player, because he's never played anywhere else but SS. (Not his fault, so much as it was the fault of Capra & other morons in the org.)

I mean, the dollar amount is absolutely the point. You can b**** about it as much as you want but the fact is it's not going to hurt the Sox at all going forward and it absolutely could benefit them greatly.

[OmarComing25]

And you're missing the point. Nowhere did I mention a dollar amount.

 

What makes the Anderson extension a bad one is that they did not allow him to play long enough to be sure enough that he is a good player to give him a contract. Sale, Q, & Eaton all PROVED their caliber over several seasons; TA only played part of one season prior to his gift.

 

That aside, they've done him no favors in developing him. His scant pre-professional background & lack of having played anything other than SS means that he'll either make it as a starter, or be a waste of money.

 

There is no option to make him a utility player, because he's never played anywhere else but SS. (Not his fault, so much as it was the fault of Capra & other morons in the org.)

This seems like an odd criticism, I just looked up the top 10 ranked SS prospects right now and the only ones who have played more than a handful of games at positions other than SS is Mateo and Rodgers, playing them at multiple positions does not seem to be a common practice. I don't see much reason for it either, and it's not like 20 games at 2B is going to make a huge difference (like what Rodgers has done).

Edited July 21, 2017 by OmarComing25

[Rowand44]

This seems like an odd criticism, I just looked up the top 10 ranked SS prospects right now and the only ones who have played more than a handful of games at positions other than SS is Mateo and Rodgers.

Everyone knew Anderson was super raw and needed a lot of development time at short when he came out college. So of course the best way to develop him at short would have been to get him reps at a bunch of other positions...

[bigruss]

4 million/yr on average isn't nothing, but with the way our contracts are setup over the next, well forever right now, it really means jack.

 

If TA turns into league average than you still have a valuable piece. Heck, you gotta play someone at short still, you probably could barely pay a decent vet project/filler that much per year.

 

Honestly Pete, you have to relax on this man.

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

I mean, the dollar amount is absolutely the point. You can b**** about it as much as you want but the fact is it's not going to hurt the Sox at all going forward and it absolutely could benefit them greatly.

No, it isnt so much about the $25MM or $26MM, so much as it is giving that money & committing those years to a guy who looks like the next Tim Beckham.

 

This seems like an odd criticism, I just looked up the top 10 ranked SS prospects right now and the only ones who have played more than a handful of games at positions other than SS is Mateo and Rodgers, playing them at multiple positions does not seem to be a common practice. I don't see much reason for it either, and it's not like 20 games at 2B is going to make a huge difference (like what Rodgers has done).

OK. And how many of those players you searched had "ONLY" 2 years of HS ball, followed by 2 years as a non-scholarship JUCO player?

 

All the TA apologists want to fall all over themselves to use his pre-professional inexperience as an excuse. But then, those same apologists don't also admit that it may have been a problem for his development as well.

 

Everyone knew Anderson was super raw and needed a lot of development time at short when he came out college. So of course the best way to develop him at short would have been to get him reps at a bunch of other positions...

Yes. He has such scant baseball experience that it would have been worth it to give him a few reps @ other positions. It would have helped him develop a better understanding of his responsibilities @ SS, while keeping his team mates responsibilities in mind.

 

Or maybe, he could have found a better spot on the diamond for himself by trying out other positions.

 

At the same time, there are those that foster this fantasy that TA can be moved to the OF, or used as a utility player, despite him never having played anywhere else. In a day and age where players who can play multiple positions is valued, it's odd that this org never had him play elsewhere.

 

On balance, this has narrowed his margin of error to make good on the contract he was given. Either he's a starting SS, or he's a waste of money, full stop. And so far, his (snicker) 64 wrc+ and (snicker) -6 DRS and (snicker) NEGATIVE fWAR don't look good this year. Here's hoping it turns around for him.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

If TA turns into league average

That is the cogent question, isn't it?

 

If not for this contract, we would all be wanting TA to be sent down, given his struggles in every aspect of the game. The best thing that could happen for TA/this team is a minor injury, so that he can be sent down on a "rehab" stint, because he's been bad so far.

[Rowand44]

You have some pretty outrageous reasoning as to why you're so mad about this but I'm not going to change your mind so I'm not going to waste my time.

[OmarComing25]

No, it isnt so much about the $25MM or $26MM, so much as it is giving that money & committing those years to a guy who looks like the next Tim Beckham.

 

 

OK. And how many of those players you searched had "ONLY" 2 years of HS ball, followed by 2 years as a non-scholarship JUCO player?

 

All the TA apologists want to fall all over themselves to use his pre-professional inexperience as an excuse. But then, those same apologists don't also admit that it may have been a problem for his development as well.

 

 

Yes. He has such scant baseball experience that it would have been worth it to give him a few reps @ other positions. It would have helped him develop a better understanding of his responsibilities @ SS, while keeping his team mates responsibilities in mind.

 

At the same time, there are those that foster this fantasy that TA can be moved to the OF, or used as a utility player, despite him never having played anywhere else. In a day and age where players who can play multiple positions is valued, it's odd that this org never had him play elsewhere.

 

On balance, this has narrowed his margin of error to make good on the contract he was given. Either he's a starting SS, or he's a waste of money, full stop. And so far, his (snicker) 64 wrc+ and (snicker) -6 DRS don't look good this year. Here's hoping it turns around for him.

If Anderson plays like Tim Beckham has the last two years he'll be worth his contract.

 

How many reps is a "few reps"? It's exactly due to his inexperience that he should have been getting as many reps as possible at SS, especially given that his biggest defensive issue is errors and that can be fixed with more reps at SS. Would playing him a couple dozen games in CF or 2B or 3B really have made that much of a difference? Yanking around a guy that has as little experience as he does in baseball would probably have done more harm than good, let him get settled in and get comfortable at one position.

[witesoxfan]

Tim Anderson will become better at SS by not playing SS.

 

That is some of the most backwards logic I've ever read on here.

[bigruss]

I also don't understand the lack of previous playing time as a knock on Anderson, to me that makes it more impressive that he even got here and has done as well as he has. He will struggle, he's young, and yes more time in the minors may be needed, but what is he harming right now? Or next year? Or the year after that?

[Balta1701]

I also don't understand the lack of previous playing time as a knock on Anderson, to me that makes it more impressive that he even got here and has done as well as he has. He will struggle, he's young, and yes more time in the minors may be needed, but what is he harming right now? Or next year? Or the year after that?

That bunt totally took us out of a scoring chance.

[witesoxfan]

That bunt totally took us out of a scoring chance.

 

Good

 

I mean, I'm being a little facetious, but at this point, it is better if the Sox lose.

[Lillian]

The Sox have him under control through 2024, if they pick up the options. That's plenty of time for him to just continue developing at SS.

The team isn't expected to contend over the next couple of years, so it seems like good timing. He has tremendous raw talent and not that much experience, which suggests that he will get much better. We've all seen him make some pretty amazing plays already, and that should be very encouraging.

[Balta1701]

The Sox have him under control through 2024, if they pick up the options. That's plenty of time for him to just continue developing at SS.

The team isn't expected to contend over the next couple of years, so it seems like good timing. He has tremendous raw talent and not that much experience, which suggests that he will get much better. We've all seen him make some pretty amazing plays already, and that should be very encouraging.

As of right now, he's getting the ire on a losing, rebuilding team because he's the only one of the guys from that losing, rebuilding team we get to see on a daily basis. He'll continue that for a few months until someone else comes up and struggles. I think Moncada gets a temporary pass, but it'll get on our nerves if he's struggling middle of next season and we will be talking ourselves out of playing this same game. Heck, think about Garcia the last couple years - struggled through a couple years, plenty of venom, was a major cause of those 2 debacles, now is finally having a good year.

 

But yeah, at least we didn't go into this season thinking Anderson would be a key cog carrying us to a division title.

[greg775]

I guess I'll try to get people back to the subject of the thread instead of a TA discussion. He's been pathetic at short this season and at the plate but somewhat understandable considering his personal tragedy. I think because of the tragedy in fact, they should have sent him down long ago just to mourn at his own pace. He deserves time to mourn, folks. Doing it in the high pressure of the big leagues is not so smart for anybody. I hope Tim finds the peace he needs.

 

But back to the rebuild ... I wish you folks were my bosses at the jobs I've had. You are sooo positive and forgiving. I stand by my grade of 2 right now (though I guess I could hike it to 4 or 5 if I look ONLY at how the prospects rate on paper; I don't deny there are bunch of HIGHLY RATED performers in our organization now.

But considering some of crazy bad acquisitions of this organization the past several seasons, I don't trust anything about our front office. As I said, many of you guys trust everything about what our front office has done. So I DO NOT give anybody the benefit of the doubt. Here's hoping the core -- Moncada, TA, Rutherford, Robert, and Eloy and all the pitchers we got in the 2 trades -- are GREAT and we are locks to win 2-3 WS in short fashion, maybe more. But I certainly would never give a high grade right now.

You guys are so mad at me for saying the current record must be included in any grade. But like I said before, the totally horrid season of this season and next should be considered. I mean it's part of the rebuild and it's ugly, baby. But the current ineptitude HAS TO BE CONSIDERED AS part of the final grade. It just has to be unless your head is buried in the sand. Just my take. But it's my take and I must stand by it.

Edited July 21, 2017 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

Greg, you don't use this teams record to grade the rebuild. That is totally counterintuitive

[greg775]

Greg, you don't use this teams record to grade the rebuild. That is totally counterintuitive

I'm really surprised people don't understand my point about this. You have to consider this team's record in grading the rebuild. All seasons are equal. You have to take the bad with the good. Let's say half the prospects make it and the Sox never creep about .500 in this rebuild. In that case you have to balance that with the miserable seasons to see if it was worth it.

Look ... all seasons count the same. This one is horrific to watch. Next season will be the same. The rebuild will remain a failure. If and when the team gets good with the prospects, the grade starts to improve. If the team makes the playoffs it improves more. If it makes the WS the rebuild becomes a 9. What is so controversial about what I am saying here?

 

They said to rate the rebuild as it stands now. Well, as of now I'm sickened by this baseball team trotting Holland, Shields and Pelfrey out there. So the rebuild is a 2. Can it become an 8, 9 even a 10 at some point? Sure.

[SoxAce]

Going to be real interesting to see what the sox do in the draft next season. If they really like that kid Turang, then it might put Tim on notice. (or if he looks like next year's Tim, then that prospect could be trade bait down the line when the sox are ready to compete and need to add a big piece. Alot of ways it can go) I personally think Tim will be fine though.

[beautox]

Going to be real interesting to see what the sox do in the draft next season. If they really like that kid Turang, then it might put Tim on notice. (or if he looks like next year's Tim, then that prospect could be trade bait down the line when the sox are ready to compete and need to add a big piece. Alot of ways it can go) I personally think Tim will be fine though.

I think Tim is going to get till the end of '19 before the FO considers to do anything if he can't improve, I still think he is the SS of the present and future of this rebuild. Having said that BPA when it comes to the draft if thats Beer great, if not Singer, Turang, Madrigal or Eierman would all look good in our system.

[Dominikk85]

Going to be real interesting to see what the sox do in the draft next season. If they really like that kid Turang, then it might put Tim on notice. (or if he looks like next year's Tim, then that prospect could be trade bait down the line when the sox are ready to compete and need to add a big piece. Alot of ways it can go) I personally think Tim will be fine though.

 

Turang will take at least until 2021 to arrive in the majors, he is still in high school. That gives anderson enough time to prove himself.