zach collins

[yesterday333]

Lewis has shown power, both in college and limited pro sample size. I'm still high on Rutherford, but eventually the power will have to start showing up if he is going to stick as a corner outfielder.

 

I'm not obsessed with Lewis, but feel is is a better overall prospect than Collins at this stage. I get organizationally we needed a catcher, but I think we fell in love with Collins' 2016 junior season. Lewis raked in college, albeit at a smaller program, for two full seasons.

 

What is done is done, but I'm still allowed to respectfully disagree with the organization's draft decision from 2016.

No one is saying you cant disagree but every time Collins (or any other player we drafted) gets brought up, people have to chime in with, "we could've had this player I wanted." It gets pretty old.

[steveno89]

No one is saying you cant disagree but every time Collins (or any other player we drafted) gets brought up, people have to chime in with, "we could've had this player I wanted." It gets pretty old.

 

I'm happy Collins is in the system as we were lacking catching prospects for sure. I'm also happy that Zevala and Skoug are in the system as well to give it more depth.

 

I'm pretty satisfied with who we have drafted in 2016 and 2017 so far.

[bmags]

No one is saying you cant disagree but every time Collins (or any other player we drafted) gets brought up, people have to chime in with, "we could've had this player I wanted." It gets pretty old.

 

It will be the case until the White Sox prove it with their drafting and development.

 

Sox said Collins was top player on their board. They'll have to own that then.

[thxfrthmmrs]

No one is saying you cant disagree but every time Collins (or any other player we drafted) gets brought up, people have to chime in with, "we could've had this player I wanted." It gets pretty old.

 

Sox aren't perfect at drafting, no pro sports team is. However, the Sox seem to have struck out on every positional player they picked over the past 15 years. What is wrong with someone revisiting the decisions that the team has made if they don't agree with?

[OmarComing25]

With regards to Lewis, I was reading Longenhagen's chat today and he said he's pretty worried about his struggles with staying healthy, and that it could be a recurring problem.

[bmags]

With regards to Lewis, I was reading Longenhagen's chat today and he said he's pretty worried about his struggles with staying healthy, and that it could be a recurring problem.

 

Yeah leaving the game with sore knee again...not good.

[steveno89]

With regards to Lewis, I was reading Longenhagen's chat today and he said he's pretty worried about his struggles with staying healthy, and that it could be a recurring problem.

 

Lewis did have major knee injuries last year that he only recently is returning from. It's not crazy to think he will experience a few setbacks.

[rodh]

My hope is his struggles this year will provide the incentive for Collins to be receptive to swing adjustments. Most notably that big pre-load forward press of the bat head away from his body. I always thought this would make it difficult to pull pitches and maybe stats will prove me wrong but it seems he hits to the opposite field more than normal.

 

I believe that he can develop into a MLB player if he can stay at catcher. He has good power with plate discipline and appears to be a hard worker who will put in the time to continue developing his defense and pitch framing. The batting average/strikeouts is a concern but lets see if the new development staff can actually develop players hitting skills (not only Collins but throughout the organization).

[yesterday333]

Sox aren't perfect at drafting, no pro sports team is. However, the Sox seem to have struck out on every positional player they picked over the past 15 years. What is wrong with someone revisiting the decisions that the team has made if they don't agree with?

Like I said... questioning it is fine, but every time a player gets talked about is a little much. Every time people talk about Collins they have to say "could've had Lewis or Rutherford..." Everybody is aware of that already. it doesn't add anything to the conversation most of the time.

[Quin]

Lewis has shown power, both in college and limited pro sample size. I'm still high on Rutherford, but eventually the power will have to start showing up if he is going to stick as a corner outfielder.

 

I'm not obsessed with Lewis, but feel is is a better overall prospect than Collins at this stage. I get organizationally we needed a catcher, but I think we fell in love with Collins' 2016 junior season. Lewis raked in college, albeit at a smaller program, for two full seasons.

 

What is done is done, but I'm still allowed to respectfully disagree with the organization's draft decision from 2016.

 

Didn't mean you specifically, but seemingly a large swath of posters.

[Anderdale]

Greg Goldstein didn't have very positive things to say about collins and if he can stick behind the plate. Is this guy a good judge?

 

https://audioboom.com/posts/6223607-episode...-off-the-fringe

 

Around the 38 min mark

Edited August 22, 2017 by Anderdale

[fathom]

As I've said before, it's troubling that no non-Sox source has said anything positive about his ability to catch

[Dunt]

Greg Goldstein didn't have very positive things to say about collins and if he can stick behind the plate. Is this guy a good judge?

 

https://audioboom.com/posts/6223607-episode...-off-the-fringe

 

Around the 38 min mark

 

He's a baseball prospectus prospect guy, so I would definitely listen to what he has to say. I think there are still some questions of how Collins is as a receiver. As of right now, he's throwing out roughly 41% of baserunners, but has 16 or 17 PB. A offense first catcher that can throw out baserunners is exceptionally valuable though.

[bmags]

That's the thing for me. I accept Collins is likely not going to ever be good at blocking pitches. But if he can throw player out plus hit, we are talking about receiving where he needs to be good.

 

What about the last 4-5 years has taught us that framing cannot be improved or taught?

 

Is athleticism key to that? It's possible it's just not something I've heard tied to it.

[harfman77]

That's the thing for me. I accept Collins is likely not going to ever be good at blocking pitches. But if he can throw player out plus hit, we are talking about receiving where he needs to be good.

 

What about the last 4-5 years has taught us that framing cannot be improved or taught?

 

Is athleticism key to that? It's possible it's just not something I've heard tied to it.

 

There is also an argument that a catcher has little to do with the pitch framing and it has much more to do with the types of pitchers that they handle - guys like Sale make their catchers worse with the movement of their pitches - and the size of the catchers. I have read that taller catchers are naturally worse pitch framers because they obstruct the view of the umpire sooner than smaller catchers.

[bmags]

There is also an argument that a catcher has little to do with the pitch framing and it has much more to do with the types of pitchers that they handle - guys like Sale make their catchers worse with the movement of their pitches - and the size of the catchers. I have read that taller catchers are naturally worse pitch framers because they obstruct the view of the umpire sooner than smaller catchers.

 

BP has accounted for pitcher though in their framing statistics since 2015 I believe.

 

 

But with Collins its certainly anecdotal as we don't ahve much to go on aside from in person scouting. He clearly seems stiff. But I'm not writing him off yet.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

There is also an argument that a catcher has little to do with the pitch framing and it has much more to do with the types of pitchers that they handle - guys like Sale make their catchers worse with the movement of their pitches - and the size of the catchers. I have read that taller catchers are naturally worse pitch framers because they obstruct the view of the umpire sooner than smaller catchers.

There's tons more variables also. I'm convinced it's more inconsistency with umpiring than anything else . If a pitcher can hit the glove or close to it framing is easier especially on fastballs. Now if you miss your location even within the strike zone a catcher has to move very quickly to just catch it let alone frame it. That's why we see those pitches called balls more often than not. An ump sees where the catcher sets up and naturally expects the pitch in that location . Pitchers with a lot of downward tilt on pitches don't get a lot of calls in the lower strike zone. Even a good catcher will have his glove dragged down by the movement of the ball plus certain umps are known for either calling the low or high strike, Umps also are better with veteran pitchers having seen them more and knowing their pitches, That's why it's so important for pitchers to get ahead in counts. Make the hitter defensive and get him in swing mode rather than relying on having to throw strikes . Many good pitchers get great results on pitches out of the zone that wouldn't be called strikes anyway because the hitters are on the defensive by getting behind in the count.

 

I know it sounds silly that pitchers and catchers need to adjust to umpiring just as umpires need to learn the pitchers but Hawk always talks about how the hitters would be well aware of umpiring tendencies and talk about it before games . I know pitchers study hitters and vice versa but their should also be a book on umpires that should also be a part of the game plan for pitchers. Obviously knowing the hitters is more important but knowing the umps tendencies should not be unimportant. Yes a catcher who can get down low and hold still is important for getting those early strikes and some called K's but I think framing is just not as important as some make it seem. If you are a good framer shouldn't you always be a good framer ? I mean a catcher's mechanics usually don't change from year to year maybe until they get a little older yet we see in framing stats that a catcher can be a great framer one year and be so so the next. What exactly changes in his receiving abilities to change his stats like that ? It's more than likely the pitchers he is catching changed or the umps behind him are different than in years past.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I know I am talking to myself at this point but saw a perfect example of some of what I was talking about above in tonight's Twins/Sox game. Greg Gibson was the home plate umpire. Of course like all umps he set up over the catchers right shoulder . To me that gives him a better view of the catchers right hand side of the plate. He seemed very accurate on the balls and strikes there. On the opposite side of the plate he wasn't so good. Several times he called pitches by Berrios that were clearly off the plate according to pitch trax on the telecast strikes .I'm pretty sure it happened 3 or 4 times ,some more egregious than others. I couldn't help but think those pitches will go down as well framed since they were called strikes when in reality it was clearly on the umpire and perhaps Berrios who seemed to have the pitches to his arm side fade off the plate many times during the night , up and in to righties but down and away to left handers. Now if I was keeping a book on umps I'd investigate games with Gibson behind the plate and see if that is the way he consistently calls games.

[ptatc]

I know I am talking to myself at this point but saw a perfect example of some of what I was talking about above in tonight's Twins/Sox game. Greg Gibson was the home plate umpire. Of course like all umps he set up over the catchers right shoulder . To me that gives him a better view of the catchers right hand side of the plate. He seemed very accurate on the balls and strikes there. On the opposite side of the plate he wasn't so good. Several times he called pitches by Berrios that were clearly off the plate according to pitch trax on the telecast strikes .I'm pretty sure it happened 3 or 4 times ,some more egregious than others. I couldn't help but think those pitches will go down as well framed since they were called strikes when in reality it was clearly on the umpire and perhaps Berrios who seemed to have the pitches to his arm side fade off the plate many times during the night , up and in to righties but down and away to left handers. Now if I was keeping a book on umps I'd investigate games with Gibson behind the plate and see if that is the way he consistently calls games.

You are absolutely correct on this. I noticed the same thing during the game. Narvaez was befuddled by some of the calls on the outside part of the plate and Berrios was smart enough to keep throwing it out there.

Edited August 25, 2017 by ptatc

[Lillian]

Look at Collin's split stats, for the season. He has very good numbers vs. RHP. That should be all that matters, because as a catcher, he is not likely to face many LH pitchers. He will be platooned, as are almost all catchers, in order to provide the necessary rest from the rigors of that position.

 

Between Winston-Salem and his first few games at Birmingham, he is hitting approximately .250 with a .400 OBP and .500 slugging %, versus RHP.

He's also hitting XBH at a rate of about 30 doubles and 30 homers.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Lillian

[Chicago White Sox]

Look at Collin's split stats, for the season. He has very good numbers vs. RHP. That should be all that matters, because as a catcher, he is not likely to face many LH pitchers. He will be platooned, as are almost all catchers, in order to provide the necessary rest from the rigors of that position.

 

Between Winston-Salem and his first few games at Birmingham, he is hitting approximately .250 with a .400 OBP and .500 slugging %, versus RHP.

He's also hitting XBH at a rate of about 30 doubles and 30 homers.

With him it all comes down to defense. Can he be passable behind the plate? I'm confident the bat will play if he can stick at catcher. To your point, the natural platooning of the position only makes that more likely.

 

Blocking seems like it will always be an issue for him due to a lack of athleticism. Realistically, it will all come down to game management, limiting the run game, & framing. He's done a great job throwing out runners this year, so there's at least one plus. We'll just have to wait and see where those other areas shake out when he finally reaches the pros. Are there any sites that show minor league framing? Would be interesting to see if he's making any process in that particular area.

[witesoxfan]

But platooning with a catcher doesn't occur based on handedness usually but rather based on pitcher's preferences. I imagine they will try and make it so he faces mostly righties, but that's not always possible with catchers.

[southsider2k5]

It is worth pointing out that since abandoning the mechanics changes, Collins has really kicked it up a notch.

 

In August Collins has hit .333/.506/.667/1.173. His K numbers have also halved as compared to July and almost 1/3 of June (14k/79pa in Aug, 27k/81pa in July, and 35k/104pa in June). He has also been working a walk in about 1 out of every 4 PAs in August (20bb/79pa). His overall average is up to .229 for the full season and .304 while at AA in the 8 games he has been there.

[BlackSox13]

Stone and Benetti spoke briefly about Collins' during Saturday nights game. They said Collins had spoke with the Sox about the hitch in his swing and he basically asked the Sox if he could wait on fixing the hitch until the off-season. Collins didn't want to do it mid season, which the Sox were fine with.

[ron883]

It is worth pointing out that since abandoning the mechanics changes, Collins has really kicked it up a notch.

 

In August Collins has hit .333/.506/.667/1.173. His K numbers have also halved as compared to July and almost 1/3 of June (14k/79pa in Aug, 27k/81pa in July, and 35k/104pa in June). He has also been working a walk in about 1 out of every 4 PAs in August (20bb/79pa). His overall average is up to .229 for the full season and .304 while at AA in the 8 games he has been there.

Zavala has a 985 ops against lefties. That's going to be quite the platoon