southsider2k5 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:19 PM) From what we've read, all relievers have sketchy track records. You can't have it every which way. Robertson had a fantastic track record and he was worth s*** because he made some money. Kahnle had control, but his control was worthless because relievers are erratic and he will eventually turn into suck, no doubt, anyway. Swarzak has no money committed to him, has been dominant, has outstanding stuff, but is worth nothing because he has no control. These are all horses*** justifications for getting s*** value out of our relievers a week ahead of the deadline. Kahnle was the key piece to getting the White Sox a top 30 prospect, along with a package of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 In trades for relievers, when returns are going in the 50-45 FV range, these are scout pick ems. Some are going to like them, some aren't, otherwise they'd be higher. I'm both fine with getting a guy ready, considering the team right now, and also would have preferred a guy a bit younger in AA. But, as Eric Longenhagen noted, he made a change in his swing that led to a better go-around in AA his second time through that stuck this year in AAA. This is hopefully where our scouts came in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:19 PM) From what we've read, all relievers have sketchy track records. You can't have it every which way. Robertson had a fantastic track record and he was worth s*** because he made some money. Kahnle had control, but his control was worthless because relievers are erratic and he will eventually turn into suck, no doubt, anyway. Swarzak has no money committed to him, has been dominant, has outstanding stuff, but is worth nothing because he has no control. These are all horses*** justifications for getting s*** value out of our relievers a week ahead of the deadline. You've legit lost it in this thread dude. I'm going to step away from this one myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 There are bigger name prospects in Brewers system like Gatewood or Harrison that would have been sexier acquisitions, but honestly Cordell has a far better chance of contributing in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasox24 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:52 PM) Let me ask you this... If we were a contending team, and we needed an arm in the bullpen, and we went out and traded Adam Engel for a guy that has performed as well as Swarzak has, how would you feel? Soxtalk would have been f***ing ecstatic about such a deal. You're right that if we were a contender and traded Engel for Swarzak, I'd be happy about it. But if we traded anything better than Engel for 2 months of a dude who has zero track record, I'd be disappointed. To me, it's a fair deal for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2017 -> 04:19 AM) From what we've read, all relievers have sketchy track records. You can't have it every which way. Robertson had a fantastic track record and he was worth s*** because he made some money. Kahnle had control, but his control was worthless because relievers are erratic and he will eventually turn into suck, no doubt, anyway. Swarzak has no money committed to him, has been dominant, has outstanding stuff, but is worth nothing because he has no control. These are all horses*** justifications for getting s*** value out of our relievers a week ahead of the deadline. I should probably send you this via pm instead of out here. But what you are saying is this board has a lot of people praising Hahn for EVERY single move he's made when quite frankly the verdict is still out on this rebuild as it is with anything dependent on PROSPECTS. You called them sheep, not me, but ... That said I want the prospects to win as you do since the Sox have gone this route. I feel like shack was fed up with the seemingly 100 percent love of everything Hahn is doing and like me couldn't take it any more thus erupted in this thread. Some of us want PROOF. And my grade of the rebuild hinges on results, baby. Not prospect lists. Though I am hopeful and love the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:18 PM) This is about as blatant as misinterpretation of stats as there is out there. While you might find a counting stat that puts Swarzak in the top 10, he is NOT a top 10 reliever in this league. There is no way on this earth that Anthony Swarzak is one of the 10 best relievers in the AL in reality. His xFIP is 59 out of 163 qualified relief pitchers. His ERA is 31st out of 163. His k/9 is 76th of 163. His LOB% is 52nd, or one slot better than Chris Beck. His advanced numbers all scream regression to mean, for a guy who is having a career year. Talk about misinterpretation of stats. Where does he rank in era and fip for relief pitchers that have thrown more than 30 innings this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:27 PM) Talk about misinterpretation of stats. Where does he rank in era and fip for relief pitchers that have thrown more than 30 innings this year? All of the relievers are qualified. That is why it is only out of 163. If it were a lower number, there would be even more. You can't honestly be telling me that there are only nine or fewer relievers you would take over Anthony Swarzak, because that is what you keep saying here by calling him a top 10 reliever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:20 PM) Pretty good is not elite though and there are/were plenty of pretty good relievers on the market. And I'm not trying to be a dick, but do you think honestly Hahn took Cordell over better prospects or do you think he misread the market and should have sold Swarzak earlier/later? You will not find many larger fans of Hahn than me. But do you really think it is impossible for him to misread the market? There are a lot of folks that thought the trade with the Yankees was bad. Why is it ok for you to question him but not me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:29 PM) All of the relievers are qualified. That is why it is only out of 163. If it were a lower number, there would be even more. You can't honestly be telling me that there are only nine or fewer relievers you would take over Anthony Swarzak, because that is what you keep saying here by calling him a top 10 reliever. He is the 8th best reliever by era of relievers who have thrown 30 innings or more. That is pretty damned valuable. He's done it all. High leverage, multiple innings, anything we've asked. Edited July 26, 2017 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:23 PM) So Hahn, every media member that has addressed this specific deal, and 95% of the posters here are wrong.....that's what you're saying? There is something called groupthink that happens, and it absolutely happens here. Compare the threads discussing what we think should be the returns for players, and then compare the actual returns for players. The difference is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:34 PM) There is something called groupthink that happens, and it absolutely happens here. Compare the threads discussing what we think should be the returns for players, and then compare the actual returns for players. The difference is ridiculous. And if anyone points it out at the time, what was the reaction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:31 PM) He is the 8th best reliever by era of relievers who have thrown 30 innings or more. That is pretty damned valuable. He's done it all. High leverage, multiple innings, anything we've asked. We traded maybe 30 innings of swarzak and saved 300k and in exchange got a player who might become interesting for us given his tools. You honestly can't have expected much more given the relief market this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:34 PM) Lets play a game. If the Sox were contending right now, but really needed a guy like Swarzak, what would be the most you would give up from this current farm system for Swarzak (Lets say he plays for the A's in this scenario.) Already played that game. If we traded Adam Engel for him, I'd be thrilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2017 -> 04:31 AM) He is the 8th best reliever by era of relievers who have thrown 30 innings or more. That is pretty damned valuable. He's done it all. High leverage, multiple innings, anything we've asked. No doubt he's been awesome this year. He also bailed out some of the starters in big spots. With that said, I think it was Jake that made a great point about how he's one or two bad appearances away from losing almost all value. I really think you are selling Cordell a bit short Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:31 PM) He is the 8th best reliever by era of relievers who have thrown 30 innings or more. That is pretty damned valuable. He's done it all. High leverage, multiple innings, anything we've asked. This is absolutely not true. He is 31st. His FIP is 17th, and his xFIP is 59th out of 165 relievers who have thrown 30 or more inning this season. The ONLY stat he is top ten on is WAR amongst relievers. Of course by that measure he ranks ahead of Tommy Kahnle, which is just ridiculous and a perfect demonstration of what the WAR stat is worth for relievers. Anthony Swarzak is NOT a top 10 reliever. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...a&page=2_30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2017 -> 04:36 AM) Already played that game. If we traded Adam Engel for him, I'd be thrilled. Cordell is a much better prospect than engel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:36 PM) And if anyone points it out at the time, what was the reaction? I'm not sure what you are asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:38 PM) Cordell is a much better prospect than engel The scout in the text to Dan Hayes that ss2k linked to basically said they are the same player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2017 -> 03:34 AM) There is something called groupthink that happens, and it absolutely happens here. Compare the threads discussing what we think should be the returns for players, and then compare the actual returns for players. The difference is ridiculous. I actually think Sox fans are pretty good when it comes to valuing their guys compared to other fan bases. But yes, we always expect too much. I'm still waiting for ERod to replace Basabe and Diaz and Candelario to replace Fleete and Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 08:38 PM) This is absolutely not true. He is 31st. His FIP is 17th, and his xFIP is 59th out of 165 relievers who have thrown 30 or more inning this season. The ONLY stat he is top ten on is WAR amongst relievers. Of course by that measure he ranks ahead of Tommy Kahnle, which is just ridiculous and a perfect demonstration of what the WAR stat is worth for relievers. Anthony Swarzak is NOT a top 10 reliever. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...a&page=2_30 You are correct. The data I pulled had a wrong field selected. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2017 -> 04:39 AM) The scout in the text to Dan Hayes that ss2k linked to basically said they are the same player. Must be same Sox scout that said Rutherford can play CF. engel has never hit for avg or power in full minor league seasons. Cordell has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:39 PM) The scout in the text to Dan Hayes that ss2k linked to basically said they are the same player. Who did you expect for a rental? Especially in this market. Also, don't slam Cordell as being useless before he even gets a chance with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Sorry if I missed it, but what is his back injury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 25, 2017 -> 10:31 PM) He is the 8th best reliever by era of relievers who have thrown 30 innings or more. That is pretty damned valuable. He's done it all. High leverage, multiple innings, anything we've asked. A White Sox pitcher hasn't thrown a single inning of high leverage baseball this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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