Beastly's take

[The Beast]

I will add more to this when I get home, as I am just signing off of the DGS School library. The time is 12:06

Revamp of the Chicago White Sox team, 2004

The 2003 season for the White Sox was tough. They battled back from a dismal start in Kansas City, (which was a surprise that Kansas City was so good) when Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, Jon Garland, and Esteban Loaiza got the job done. The team does need a number five starter who on the 2003 roster, went at least 3-7 with a 6.11 era. Rein forcements for the rotation could well be Andy Pettite, Brian Anderson, Kirk Rueter, Livan Hernandez, Derek Lowe or even Sidney Ponson. The White Sox also have wholes within the 1b-ss infield, as well as catcher and outfield. They need to retain a healthy bullpen as well.

 

At first base, Paul Konerko had a down year for someone who is owed at least 9 million dollars next year. With Kenny Williams rolling the dice, PK could even be gone by December, at the latest, January. He says some substancial changes may occur in the September 29, 2003 article for the tribune. Possible replacements if we get a pitcher, or upgrades would be Brad Fulmer, Scott Spezio or even David Ortiz. The Sox could pick up good pitching for him in my opinion.

 

Now the middle infield needs to be upgraded subnificantly. Latest news is that the Sox may procede to pick up Miguel Tejada or even Kazuo Matsui. However, I’d like to see the White Sox make a run at Luis Castillo for second base.

[southsider2k5]

My take? That is a whole lot of not gonna happen's...

[elrockinMT]

My take?  That is a whole lot of not gonna happen's...

Agreed. Our best bet is to keep our central group of players and try and add some back up. If we spend money on the likes of Bart and Roberto and maybe Carl Everett, that doesn't leave much for chasing Tejada, et al. Trades might be a different story though.

[witesoxfan]

Oh, let's get rid of Konerko and then add David Ortiz, who not only is slower then Konerko(or the same speed atleast), but let's add him so we can watch him STRIKE OUT 110 times a year. Yeah, sounds great. And then let's add Brad Fullmer to watch him strike out, and then have him do a weight training session. Can I get a HELL NO to both of those two?

 

What the White Sox need to do is get rid of one of Thomas and Konerko, and add some major speed to the team. I would not mind seeing the Sox get rid of either of those two, bring back Carl Everett, start Rowand in CF, resign Jose to a less wealthy contract so he can become a super utility player, and then add Luis Castillo while resigning Robby. Use Robby and Castillo up the middle(whoever has the best arm is put at SS obviously), Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF, Thomas/Konerko at 1B(if it's Thomas, as bad as he is, his defense would be fine there if he produces), have Everett DH, though he can get in the field 2 or 3 times a week, and run a lineup of Castillo, Alomar, Lee, Ordonez, Everett, Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Olivo. If possible, get another LH bat for the middle of the lineup, but if not, don't worry about it(my thinking is Konerko for Jenkins in Milwaukee and then trading Maggs for some pitching....the lineup would then be the same as it is now, only you'd move Everett to 5th, Thomas to 6th, and slip Jenkins in the 7th spot). Hope you can resign Bartolo, and you add a few pieces to the bullpen and....voila!....a decent team.

[whitesox61382]

"Oh, let's get rid of Konerko and then add David Ortiz, who not only is slower then Konerko(or the same speed atleast), but let's add him so we can watch him STRIKE OUT 110 times a year. Yeah, sounds great. And then let's add Brad Fullmer to watch him strike out, and then have him do a weight training session. Can I get a HELL NO to both of those two?"

 

You can get a HELL YA your an idiot if you dont want a guy like Ortiz. Not only would he balance the lineup by adding a lefty bat, but his numbers this year are plain sick. .289/31/101 39 2B .963 OPS, and where are you pulling this 110 SO s*** from considering he has never SO more then 87 times in a season. Maybe you should check the stats before making a fool of yourself unless you think keeping a guy that hit .234/18/65 19 2B .704 OPS is a better idea? To top things off Konerko is quite about slower then Ortiz and has averaged 21 GIDP's a year(over the past 4 years) compared to Ortiz who averaged only 8 GIDP's a year over the same stretch. If thats not enough info for you then try this on for size, Konerko's career OPS is .812 compared to .845 for Ortiz. It is quite clear that Ortiz is the better player. I will give you a few minutes to regain your dignity(jk). But you can get a loud and clear HELL YA to Oritz, especially if it means Konerko is gone.

 

I would even take Fullmer over Konerko considering he would cost about a 1/4th of what Konerko does, is a left handed bat, and will produce similar numbers. In fact Fullmer has a higher career OPS of .829 compared to Konerko at .812. Once again where are you pulling this strikeout thing from considering Fullmer has SO more then 70 times in a season only once.

 

"What the White Sox need to do is get rid of one of Thomas and Konerko, and add some major speed to the team. I would not mind seeing the Sox get rid of either of those two, bring back Carl Everett, start Rowand in CF, resign Jose to a less wealthy contract so he can become a super utility player, and then add Luis Castillo while resigning Robby. Use Robby and Castillo up the middle(whoever has the best arm is put at SS obviously), Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF, Thomas/Konerko at 1B(if it's Thomas, as bad as he is, his defense would be fine there if he produces), have Everett DH, though he can get in the field 2 or 3 times a week, and run a lineup of Castillo, Alomar, Lee, Ordonez, Everett, Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Olivo. If possible, get another LH bat for the middle of the lineup, but if not, don't worry about it(my thinking is Konerko for Jenkins in Milwaukee and then trading Maggs for some pitching....the lineup would then be the same as it is now, only you'd move Everett to 5th, Thomas to 6th, and slip Jenkins in the 7th spot). Hope you can resign Bartolo, and you add a few pieces to the bullpen and....voila!....a decent team."

 

To many if's in this senerio. I would love to get rid of Konerko, but you ARE NOT going to get a player of Jenkins calibur in return. You can probably get a big salary veteran(that isnt good) and a decent prospect OR a so-so prospect(which would just be a salary dump). Thats about it. Konerko might be the worst player in the majors for the money that he is getting. The only thing he can do average or better is hit and he isnt doing that, so why would a team want to pay him 8M/yr AND give up some decent players for him.

 

I would question Alomar/Castillo's ability to play SS considering that neither have started a game at SS in their careers. Besides I really dont want to see Alomar back. He is going to continue to head downhill and will cost too much.

 

The Sox aren't going to be able to sign BOTH Colon and Everett. There is a good chance that neither will be back next year, but it is almost a guarantee that both wont be. If I had to pick I would say that Colon is more valuable to the team.

 

Trading Maggs might be a decent idea if the price is right. I would want 3 very good prospects at AA or higher to start with(at least 1 being a middle infielder and at least 1 being a starting pitcher). Not many teams have the financial flexibility to trade for Maggs and those that do will probably go after Guerrero first.

 

To be honest with you I dont want a decent team that is going to finish in 2nd again. The Central is going to be very weak next year and if JR put some money into this team they could make the playoffs and possible go deap. This team just needs a little tinkering. It needs to keep Colon, improve the middle infield, add a left handed bat, improve the right side of the pen, and get rid of Koch and Konerko if possible.

[YASNY]

I keep hearing we should put Castillo at SS if we sign him. Does anyone have a clue if he can even play SS? That's like last off season I kept hearing Josh Paul as a CF'er.

 

To improve our defense up the middle we need a proven shortstop playing shortstop, a proven centerfielder (NOT Carl Everett) playing centerfield, etc. There is more to the game than just the bats. Or did this season not convince everyone of that?

 

We don't need an upgrade at catcher. Olivo is a solid ML catcher and Sandy, if he returns, a more than competent backup. Olivo will improve with the stick. It takes time for these young guys to acclimate themselves to major league pitching, day in and day out.

[witesoxfan]

You can get a HELL YA your an idiot if you dont want a guy like Ortiz. Not only would he balance the lineup by adding a lefty bat, but his numbers this year are plain sick. .289/31/101 39 2B .963 OPS, and where are you pulling this 110 SO s*** from considering he has never SO more then 87 times in a season. Maybe you should check the stats before making a fool of yourself unless you think keeping a guy that hit .234/18/65 19 2B .704 OPS is a better idea? To top things off Konerko is quite about slower then Ortiz and has averaged 21 GIDP's a year(over the past 4 years) compared to Ortiz who averaged only 8 GIDP's a year over the same stretch. If thats not enough info for you then try this on for size, Konerko's career OPS is .812 compared to .845 for Ortiz. It is quite clear that Ortiz is the better player. I will give you a few minutes to regain your dignity(jk). But you can get a loud and clear HELL YA to Oritz, especially if it means Konerko is gone.

 

I would even take Fullmer over Konerko considering he would cost about a 1/4th of what Konerko does, is a left handed bat, and will produce similar numbers. In fact Fullmer has a higher career OPS of .829 compared to Konerko at .812. Once again where are you pulling this strikeout thing from considering Fullmer has SO more then 70 times in a season only once.

What I said was I didn't want someone slower then Konerko who will also strike out 110 times.....but what I meant to say was that I didn't want to see a guy who is slower then Konekro who would strike out 110 times IF HE PLAYED A FULL SEASON. He didn't play in 34 games this year, 37 the year before that, and he missed around one-half of the season before that...whether it be because he just didn't play or because he was hurt(which I know he was in Minnesota). And he is much slower then Konerko is, and is much worse then Thomas is defensely to be quite honest, let alone Paul Konerko who is actually decent with the glove.

 

Don't get me wrong....I would have loved to have had Ortiz's numbers in our lineup. But be honest with me....do you think he would have put those numbers up in our lineup? I personally don't think he would have....he was only in one of the best offenses of this era....you wanna talk about protection in the lineup, that's what you talk about. Also....with this 1 season, his value has probably increased quite a bit. The Red Sox will probably keep him though, so it's not big deal.....we don't even need to worry about it.

 

And I watched him for two years....he is probably slower then Konerko, but at the very least, is the same speed as Konerko. Just because a guy doesn't ground into as many DPs as another doesn't mean he is faster then him. Is Frank Thomas faster then Magglio Ordonez or Carlos Lee? I think not.

 

And Fullmer will strike out....I just said let's watch him strike out. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

To many if's in this senerio. I would love to get rid of Konerko, but you ARE NOT going to get a player of Jenkins calibur in return. You can probably get a big salary veteran(that isnt good) and a decent prospect OR a so-so prospect(which would just be a salary dump). Thats about it. Konerko might be the worst player in the majors for the money that he is getting. The only thing he can do average or better is hit and he isnt doing that, so why would a team want to pay him 8M/yr AND give up some decent players for him.

 

You are probably right....but I remember hearing or reading somewhere that the Brewers would be willing to trade Jenkins and Sexson because they make so much....just a little pipedream on my part.

 

I guess the only thing I can think of now is that the Orioles might take Konerko for Jason Johnson. Otherwise, I'm all out of ideas.

 

I would question Alomar/Castillo's ability to play SS considering that neither have started a game at SS in their careers. Besides I really dont want to see Alomar back. He is going to continue to head downhill and will cost too much.

 

I'm not sure how much Alomar would cost....but it wouldn't be an incredible amount. Probably $2, $3 mill a year tops, he brings a little spark to the team, and is still one of the best defensive 2Bmen in the game. IMO, he's well worth it. And as far as Castillo is concerned, I figure his range makes up for what his arm doesn't. I assume he has a 2Bman's arm, but he does have great range. His range would probably the same at SS as it is at 2B. And turning the DP would probably be just as easy if not easier then it was with him at 2B. Again, just a little pipedream on my part, and it would have its flaws as well....but it's better then what we had now, and in all likelihood, it would get people wanting Jose back. OK, probably not, lol

 

The Sox aren't going to be able to sign BOTH Colon and Everett. There is a good chance that neither will be back next year, but it is almost a guarantee that both wont be. If I had to pick I would say that Colon is more valuable to the team.

 

Again, you're probably right.....however, signing them both isn't impossible(unless Backman is brought in as manager, and it was Everett who made the rude comment towards Everett). At the most, keeping them both would probably be somewhere around $14-16 mill.....which is essentially what we are paying Maggs this year. Apparently, the Angels are interested in Vlad, and if they don't get him, they would most definately be interested in Maggs. Amezaga is the first guy I remember from the Angels, and they always have a few starting prospects in the minors....I'm sure something could be worked out. Maybe we could get something worked out with them then and we could bring back both Everett and Colon....or at the very least, up the ante to Colon and make sure he is in a White Sox uniform next year.

 

And I do want a playoff team next year. I don't know anyone here who wouldn't.

[The Beast]

I'd like to see Spezio play here tho...IMO...

[1549]

Oh, let's get rid of Konerko and then add David Ortiz, who not only is slower then Konerko(or the same speed atleast), but let's add him so we can watch him STRIKE OUT 110 times a year.  Yeah, sounds great.  And then let's add Brad Fullmer to watch him strike out, and then have him do a weight training session.  Can I get a HELL NO to both of those two?

 

What the White Sox need to do is get rid of one of Thomas and Konerko, and add some major speed to the team.  I would not mind seeing the Sox get rid of either of those two, bring back Carl Everett, start Rowand in CF, resign Jose to a less wealthy contract so he can become a super utility player, and then add Luis Castillo while resigning Robby.  Use Robby and Castillo up the middle(whoever has the best arm is put at SS obviously), Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF, Thomas/Konerko at 1B(if it's Thomas, as bad as he is, his defense would be fine there if he produces), have Everett DH, though he can get in the field 2 or 3 times a week, and run a lineup of Castillo, Alomar, Lee, Ordonez, Everett, Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Olivo.  If possible, get another LH bat for the middle of the lineup, but if not, don't worry about it(my thinking is Konerko for Jenkins in Milwaukee and then trading Maggs for some pitching....the lineup would then be the same as it is now, only you'd move Everett to 5th, Thomas to 6th, and slip Jenkins in the 7th spot).  Hope you can resign Bartolo, and you add a few pieces to the bullpen and....voila!....a decent team.

Speed is overrated, especially in a first baseman. A power guy shouldn't be hitting infield grounders anyways, thats not his purpose on the club.

 

David Ortiz is a hell of a ballplayer and proved that with Boston this year. He is a good obp% guy and I would love to see a guy with his tenacity on the Sox, the only problem is he will probably be playing with the Red Sox next year.

 

Brad Fullmer would be kind of a pointless addition, you could get an up and coming guy that would put up equivlant numbers at a cheaper price, so I agree with your Hell No to him I guess.

 

Speed won't win ball games, getting on base will, so we should focus on getting some solid line drive hitters this offseason, and not worry about trying to find speedsters.

[The Beast]

Oh, let's get rid of Konerko and then add David Ortiz, who not only is slower then Konerko(or the same speed atleast), but let's add him so we can watch him STRIKE OUT 110 times a year.  Yeah, sounds great.  And then let's add Brad Fullmer to watch him strike out, and then have him do a weight training session.  Can I get a HELL NO to both of those two?

 

What the White Sox need to do is get rid of one of Thomas and Konerko, and add some major speed to the team.  I would not mind seeing the Sox get rid of either of those two, bring back Carl Everett, start Rowand in CF, resign Jose to a less wealthy contract so he can become a super utility player, and then add Luis Castillo while resigning Robby.  Use Robby and Castillo up the middle(whoever has the best arm is put at SS obviously), Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF, Thomas/Konerko at 1B(if it's Thomas, as bad as he is, his defense would be fine there if he produces), have Everett DH, though he can get in the field 2 or 3 times a week, and run a lineup of Castillo, Alomar, Lee, Ordonez, Everett, Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Olivo.  If possible, get another LH bat for the middle of the lineup, but if not, don't worry about it(my thinking is Konerko for Jenkins in Milwaukee and then trading Maggs for some pitching....the lineup would then be the same as it is now, only you'd move Everett to 5th, Thomas to 6th, and slip Jenkins in the 7th spot).  Hope you can resign Bartolo, and you add a few pieces to the bullpen and....voila!....a decent team.

Speed is overrated, especially in a first baseman. A power guy shouldn't be hitting infield grounders anyways, thats not his purpose on the club.

 

David Ortiz is a hell of a ballplayer and proved that with Boston this year. He is a good obp% guy and I would love to see a guy with his tenacity on the Sox, the only problem is he will probably be playing with the Red Sox next year.

 

Brad Fullmer would be kind of a pointless addition, you could get an up and coming guy that would put up equivlant numbers at a cheaper price, so I agree with your Hell No to him I guess.

 

Speed won't win ball games, getting on base will, so we should focus on getting some solid line drive hitters this offseason, and not worry about trying to find speedsters.

Agreed. Speedy Gonzos are usually your SS, 2b, and OF, NOT YOUR 1b.

Possible 2b-Castillo, Alomar, Walker

Possible ss-Eckstein, Tejada, Matsui

Possible cf-You get the picture

[witesoxfan]

Oh, let's get rid of Konerko and then add David Ortiz, who not only is slower then Konerko(or the same speed atleast), but let's add him so we can watch him STRIKE OUT 110 times a year.  Yeah, sounds great.  And then let's add Brad Fullmer to watch him strike out, and then have him do a weight training session.  Can I get a HELL NO to both of those two?

 

What the White Sox need to do is get rid of one of Thomas and Konerko, and add some major speed to the team.  I would not mind seeing the Sox get rid of either of those two, bring back Carl Everett, start Rowand in CF, resign Jose to a less wealthy contract so he can become a super utility player, and then add Luis Castillo while resigning Robby.  Use Robby and Castillo up the middle(whoever has the best arm is put at SS obviously), Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF, Thomas/Konerko at 1B(if it's Thomas, as bad as he is, his defense would be fine there if he produces), have Everett DH, though he can get in the field 2 or 3 times a week, and run a lineup of Castillo, Alomar, Lee, Ordonez, Everett, Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Olivo.  If possible, get another LH bat for the middle of the lineup, but if not, don't worry about it(my thinking is Konerko for Jenkins in Milwaukee and then trading Maggs for some pitching....the lineup would then be the same as it is now, only you'd move Everett to 5th, Thomas to 6th, and slip Jenkins in the 7th spot).  Hope you can resign Bartolo, and you add a few pieces to the bullpen and....voila!....a decent team.

Speed is overrated, especially in a first baseman. A power guy shouldn't be hitting infield grounders anyways, thats not his purpose on the club.

 

David Ortiz is a hell of a ballplayer and proved that with Boston this year. He is a good obp% guy and I would love to see a guy with his tenacity on the Sox, the only problem is he will probably be playing with the Red Sox next year.

 

Brad Fullmer would be kind of a pointless addition, you could get an up and coming guy that would put up equivlant numbers at a cheaper price, so I agree with your Hell No to him I guess.

 

Speed won't win ball games, getting on base will, so we should focus on getting some solid line drive hitters this offseason, and not worry about trying to find speedsters.

I don't want a speed guy at 1B....I'd much, much rather have a .350 50 150 guy at 1B, or at the very least, a .300 30 100 guy at 1B.....we only had one guy do that this year(and Lee barely frickin did that....well, he may not have hit .300, but it was damn close).

 

What I was saying was trading Konerko and then moving Thomas to 1B, resigning Everett, and having Rowand play CF is something I'd try....but that probably will not happen.

 

What wouldn't be a bad idea is 613's original idea on another thread....signing Orlando Cabrera and Luis Castillo for up the middle. Cabrera is very underrated all around....he won a gold glove in I believe 2000, and he is a pretty damn good offensive player....probably worth $5 mill a year. And Castillo is a pretty damn good leadoff hitter as well, and he is the kind of guy I want when I talk about speedsters. He'll probably make $5, $6 mill tops. Get rid of Konerko and Maggs, and you already have those two(Castillo and Cabrera) plus more(possibly Colon with the "marginal" raise, but probably not). Maybe sign someone cheap to play RF...Reggie Sanders, though not a great OBP guy, does play a solid RF, will put up pretty good numbers(I think he put up like .270 30 100 numbers in Pittsburgh this year, and those numbers could possibly be even better in the AL), he is clutch, and he has some World Series experience, and he'd only make $1 mill or so....tops. And he brings some of that speed I want. I have always liked him a lot, so maybe the reason I want him here is bias, but all the same, I think he's a solid player, and would put up good enough numbers that if we could save $13 mill between him and Maggs, that Maggs would be almost forgotten.

[whitesox61382]

"but what I meant to say was that I didn't want to see a guy who is slower then Konekro who would strike out 110 times IF HE PLAYED A FULL SEASON. He didn't play in 34 games this year, 37 the year before that, and he missed around one-half of the season before that...whether it be because he just didn't play or because he was hurt(which I know he was in Minnesota). And he is much slower then Konerko is, and is much worse then Thomas is defensely to be quite honest, let alone Paul Konerko who is actually decent with the glove."

 

If he played a full season, which IMO for a hitter is about 550 AB's give or take a few, than he might SO a 110 times, but since he is left handed and often sits against lefties he will never reach that mark. Besides the SO is an overrated stat(for both pitchers and hitters). It is no different then a regular out except in a few certain situations when you need to put the ball into play(like a runner at 3rd with less then 2 outs for example). If a players offensive numbers are as good as Ortiz's than I dont care how many times he SO's, and its not like we are talking about a guy that is going to strikeout once a game. His SO rate is only slightly higher then the league average, so I really think you are blowing this out of proportion.

 

I really dont think you understand just how slow Konerko really is. When people say he might be the slowest guy in the majors they arent kidding. Dont let the fact that he isnt chunky or bulky fool you. When you see him running down the 1st base line and it appears that he is dogging it the fact is that is about as fast as he moves. I really dont think you can say for sure that ANYONE in the majors is slower then Konerko. Konerko does have a better glove then Ortiz, but if you traded for Ortiz you would have him DH and Thomas play 1B, which is good(he always seems to hit better when he is playing 1B) and bad(he is below average defensively). If you dont consider their salary, I would still take Ortiz over Konerko, and when you bring into the equation salary the choice becomes even easier. Its a moot point though considering that Ortiz isnt a FA and the Red Sox probably wont trade him.