Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[Dominikk85]

Here is what I don't get right now: people were throwing around trade ideas of packaging Robertson & Kahnle and a third piece for Robles straight up and everyone said that was crazy and we would never do that. Instead we get a lesser prospect and two lotto tickets and suddenly everyone loves it? This whole deal basically revolves around Rutherford now. I feel like the only way we can win this trade is if Rutherford hits his cieling AND Kahnle regresses to an average ML pitcher or one of the lotto tickets becomes a good player or we are able to flip Clippard for something of value.

 

It mostly was 3 for 1 but consider how good of a prospect rutherford is. The system was already so good that the sox could afford to shoot for the one last blue chip guy instead of depth. The secondary pieces could have been better and maybe they even could have gotten 2 top 100 prospects but a top30 guy is very different from a top80 guy. The latter projects to be an average regular and a top30 projects to be a borderline all star.

 

The sox need upside and they got it.

 

I mwan most of the sale was already completed and we were hoping for guys like kienboom and lesser prospects like omickey. Now they got a little less depth but would anyone have thought we get a guy like rutherford?

 

You usually don't get such a guy unless you trade a top player and to get him the sox had to bundle their resources and take a hit on the secondary pieces.

 

Yeah maybe you get more if you sell kahnle separately but then you don't get a top 30 prospect unless you wait 3 years and then kahnle is the best closer in baseball.

[Dick Allen]

You are overvaluing what we just traded.

 

1) Frazier is a pure rental and not worth much in a deal on his own

 

2) Robertson is a fairly high priced closer on a team with no use for him. Nice to get that salary off of our books.

 

3) Kahnle has had 3 months of good production, but the track record does not back it up. Could it be a full breakout? Sure, but given what happened to Jones I'm not sure we want to try and get greedy.

 

"Hogs get fat, pigs get slaughtered"

I keep reading anyone who isn't in love with this deal is overvaluing the White Sox players. I know Blake Rutherford has been highly regarded here and a lot of places, but his stock has slipped a bit this year. Sure, maybe he becomes a monster, but right now if he were a White Sox draft pick there would be a ton of moaning about his performance thus far this season which isn't terrible, but not exactly great.

 

I personally neither love or hate the trade. It's one that can easily blow up in each team's face, also can be even overall (If these guys help the Yankees make the playoffs, I don't think they worry about Rutherford, especially considering their OF prospects). IMO, it's one of the rare trades that years from now can look ridiculously stupid or smart for either team. So I would guess that's a fair trade. Frankly, I would have preferred they held on to Kahnle for a while, made him a closer, and rolled the dice this isn't a fluke. In the winter or next summer, if he is still cruising along, he would be worth his weight in gold. I could understand the chance to get Frazier/DRob off the books, and acquire a guy they have really liked could trump that.

 

Using Nate Jones being injured as reason to dump Kahnle doesn't make sense. It would be like hey Profar was a top prospect and he got hurt, so top prospects should be avoided.

[iamshack]

It mostly was 3 for 1 but consider how good of a prospect rutherford is. The system was already so good that the sox could afford to shoot for the one last blue chip guy instead of depth. The secondary pieces could have been better and maybe they even could have gotten 2 top 100 prospects but a top30 guy is very different from a top80 guy. The latter projects to be an average regular and a top30 projects to be a borderline all star.

 

The sox need upside and they got it.

 

I mwan most of the sale was already completed and we were hoping for guys like kienboom and lesser prospects like omickey. Now they got a little less depth but would anyone have thought we get a guy like rutherford?

 

You usually don't get such a guy unless you trade a top player and to get him the sox had to bundle their resources and take a hit on the secondary pieces.

 

Yeah maybe you get more if you sell kahnle separately but then you don't get a top 30 prospect unless you wait 3 years and then kahnle is the best closer in baseball.

There is debate as to whether the guy is a top 50 guy, a top 80 guy....he didn't exactly light it up to start off the year.

[RockRaines]

Ouch that's a big time trade loser

Yeah but its fun watching us fleece the yankees

[RockRaines]

I keep reading anyone who isn't in love with this deal is overvaluing the White Sox players. I know Blake Rutherford has been highly regarded here and a lot of places, but his stock has slipped a bit this year. Sure, maybe he becomes a monster, but right now if he were a White Sox draft pick there would be a ton of moaning about his performance thus far this season which isn't terrible, but not exactly great.

 

I personally neither love or hate the trade. It's one that can easily blow up in each team's face, also can be even overall (If these guys help the Yankees make the playoffs, I don't think they worry about Rutherford, especially considering their OF prospects). IMO, it's one of the rare trades that years from now can look ridiculously stupid or smart for either team. So I would guess that's a fair trade. Frankly, I would have preferred they held on to Kahnle for a while, made him a closer, and rolled the dice this isn't a fluke. In the winter or next summer, if he is still cruising along, he would be worth his weight in gold. I could understand the chance to get Frazier/DRob off the books, and acquire a guy they have really liked could trump that.

 

Using Nate Jones being injured as reason to dump Kahnle doesn't make sense. It would be like hey Profar was a top prospect and he got hurt, so top prospects should be avoided.

Trading players that wouldnt have been part of the rebuilt White sox means is 100% isnt going to "blow up in their faces." Its amazing we fixed a reliever and used him partly to bring back young talent. Thats how you rebuild.

[iamshack]

Trading players that wouldnt have been part of the rebuilt White sox means is 100% isnt going to "blow up in their faces." Its amazing we fixed a reliever and used him partly to bring back young talent. Thats how you rebuild.

That doesn't mean you just dump everyone that doesn't fall into that window and declare it a winner if you got someone who does.

 

Thus far, Hahn has been extremely patient, and the returns have been pretty outstanding.

 

This one felt like it was a bit more, umm, Kenny.

[Dick Allen]

Trading players that wouldnt have been part of the rebuilt White sox means is 100% isnt going to "blow up in their faces." Its amazing we fixed a reliever and used him partly to bring back young talent. Thats how you rebuild.

If Kahnle becomes elite and Rutherford busts, the trade blew up in their faces. 60 strike outs in 36 innings. I saw something that if he has you 0-2, you are screwed. MLB hitters are 2-39 with 32 strikeouts if they fall behind him 0-2.

[RockRaines]

That doesn't mean you just dump everyone that doesn't fall into that window and declare it a winner if you got someone who does.

 

Thus far, Hahn has been extremely patient, and the returns have been pretty outstanding.

 

This one felt like it was a bit more, umm, Kenny.

It means you dump players that have no value to your squad for young talent that has much more. The return on this trade was excellent for the White Sox. The fact that a reliever with a few good months could be called a cornerstone to this trade is awesome.

[RockRaines]

If Kahnle becomes elite and Rutherford busts, the trade blew up in their faces. 60 strike outs in 36 innings. I saw something that if he has you 0-2, you are screwed. MLB hitters are 2-39 with 32 strikeouts if they fall behind him 0-2.

Ha, ok. If Kahnle somehow becomes the best reliever in baseball and a top 40 prospect completely busts out, then maybe it was bad. The odds of that are extremely slim. Relievers are simply not that consistent to make me regret ever flipping one.

[pettie4sox]

I look forward to Clippard giving up bombs. Keep losing guys! =)

[steveno89]

Come on, this is completely crazy talk.

 

If that is the thinking, then who is Rutherford in the grand scheme of things?

 

My point is nothing personal against the players themselves, but rather we should deal Robertson/Kahnle now to get what we can.

 

A good closer does nothing for us in 17/18, nor does a great setup man in Kahnle. I'll take the prospects all day for where we are at in the rebuild.

 

Rutherford is certainly the gem of the deal, and despite being several years away could be an impact player.

 

What more were Sox fans really expecting? Have you seen what the return was for JD Martinez and Doolittle/Madson?

[harfman77]

I am a little torn on what I feel about the deal. I would have preferred to get more quality prospects in the form of perhaps 2 guys in the 8-15 range and another in the 15-25 range given that the Sox had to take on a bad contract. I do get the appeal of getting Rutherford, he was speculated to be a top 5 pick a year ago and seems to be on a good trajectory. With Clarkins injury history, this deal revolves a lot around the success of Rutherford. Polo seems like a 4th OF type, which will add some value. This was a trade that put a premium on acquiring quality over quantity. I get the idea, and it is high risk, but to get a top 30 prospect for a rental, a guy that people wanted to DFA last season, and a guy who very well may be a flash in the pan is a win.

[iamshack]

Ha, ok. If Kahnle somehow becomes the best reliever in baseball and a top 40 prospect completely busts out, then maybe it was bad. The odds of that are extremely slim. Relievers are simply not that consistent to make me regret ever flipping one.

This is such horses***.

 

The odds of Kahnle keeping this up in the major leagues are slim to none, but the odds of an A-ball prospect turning into a valuable player are great?

 

If Kahnle was a prospect we'd be all f***ing amped about him.

 

 

[RockRaines]

I get the idea, and it is high risk, but to get a top 30 prospect for a rental, a guy that people wanted to DFA last season, and a guy who very well may be a flash in the pan is a win.

Exactly.

[RockRaines]

This is such horses***.

 

The odds of Kahnle keeping this up in the major leagues are slim to none, but the odds of an A-ball prospect turning into a valuable player are great?

 

If Kahnle was a prospect we'd be all f***ing amped about him.

Yes, nothing amps me up like a 28 year old reliever prospect.

[iamshack]

My point is nothing personal against the players themselves, but rather we should deal Robertson/Kahnle now to get what we can.

 

A good closer does nothing for us in 17/18, nor does a great setup man in Kahnle. I'll take the prospects all day for where we are at in the rebuild.

 

Rutherford is certainly the gem of the deal, and despite being several years away could be an impact player.

 

What more were Sox fans really expecting? Have you seen what the return was for JD Martinez and Doolittle/Madson?

To continue to make this argument completely ignores the point that these were assets that had value on the market. I get that we want to convert them to assets that can help us in the future, but that doesn't mean you just start dumping all your present assets down the drain to get anything you can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

Yeah, I tend to agree with your take here.

 

It's very easy to start bundling anything left of value that we have to go after "that one last guy," but you probably are going to lose out on additional value had we been patient and taken a calculated risk.

 

I find it difficult to accept the argument that a guy that is currently dominating at the ML level is likely to regress to nothing, but simultaneously throw a ton of stock into a kid from A-ball becoming a good mlb player.

 

I argued that it might be worth it to do this for a guy like Robles, and so if the White Sox truly believe in Rutherford, then it is difficult for me to criticize the FO.

 

But I agree with you and some others here - we likely overpaid to get "our guy," and I truly do think Kahnle has a chance to be a pretty dominant reliever for the Yankees as they make their run over the next several years.

 

Yes, the only reason to accept a deal like this is if Rutherford is your guy, and you value him higher than the industry ranks him. (Trading 3 quality ML'er for one top 40 guy is not a good return).

 

The bolded part nails it. I also find it funny that some guys want to treat it as if we traded Robertson for Clarkin, when in the Nationals thread they wanted guys like Kieboom, Soto, etc for Robertson. Clearly we also did not get good return on Robertson either.

 

I like Rutherford a lot, but still feel like this isn't quite enough. A top 10 guy like Andujar, Adams, Sheffield or Mateo instead of Polo would have made this deal much more palatable.

 

 

[flavum]

Don't judge individual trades for a while. Judge the critical mass and whether or not they're heading toward sustained success in the early 2020s.

[RockRaines]

The mark of a good trade is when both fanbases hate it. This one is spot on.

[iamshack]

The mark of a good trade is when both fanbases hate it. This one is spot on.

The reaction by most here seems to be positive.

[steveno89]

If Kahnle becomes elite and Rutherford busts, the trade blew up in their faces. 60 strike outs in 36 innings. I saw something that if he has you 0-2, you are screwed. MLB hitters are 2-39 with 32 strikeouts if they fall behind him 0-2.

 

Sox decided not to be greedy and hold out for a bigger return on Kahnle. A bad month and his trade value would be in the toilet instead of being viewed as a great trade piece. Sox were wise to cash in their main reliever chips now for a quality package.

 

Clarkin is not a bad left handed pitching prospect, his issue has been injuries. Our system needed another lefty.

 

Polo has some upside, and has a decent bat/speed

 

Clippard sucks, but whatever

 

 

[RockRaines]

To continue to make this argument completely ignores the point that these were assets that had value on the market. I get that we want to convert them to assets that can help us in the future, but that doesn't mean you just start dumping all your present assets down the drain to get anything you can.

Depreciating assets.

[iamshack]

Depreciating assets.

There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle.

[steveno89]

Yes, the only reason to accept a deal like this is if Rutherford is your guy, and you value him higher than the industry ranks him. (Trading 3 quality ML'er for one top 40 guy is not a good return).

 

The bolded part nails it. I also find it funny that some guys want to treat it as if we traded Robertson for Clarkin, when in the Nationals thread they wanted guys like Kieboom, Soto, etc for Robertson. Clearly we also did not get good return on Robertson either.

 

I like Rutherford a lot, but still feel like this isn't quite enough. A top 10 guy like Andujar, Adams, Sheffield or Mateo instead of Polo would have made this deal much more palatable.

 

Of course we always want more, but the Yankees absorbing Robertson's entire contract I'm sure played into the negotiations. I'm sure we offered to take on salary for a better prospect return, but the Yankees were probably not willing to give up more. Each side has to view the deal as fair to them, and we ended up getting a solid overall package. Sox fans should be thrilled.

[GenericUserName]

It mostly was 3 for 1 but consider how good of a prospect rutherford is. The system was already so good that the sox could afford to shoot for the one last blue chip guy instead of depth. The secondary pieces could have been better and maybe they even could have gotten 2 top 100 prospects but a top30 guy is very different from a top80 guy. The latter projects to be an average regular and a top30 projects to be a borderline all star.

 

The sox need upside and they got it.

 

I mwan most of the sale was already completed and we were hoping for guys like kienboom and lesser prospects like omickey. Now they got a little less depth but would anyone have thought we get a guy like rutherford?

 

You usually don't get such a guy unless you trade a top player and to get him the sox had to bundle their resources and take a hit on the secondary pieces.

 

Yeah maybe you get more if you sell kahnle separately but then you don't get a top 30 prospect unless you wait 3 years and then kahnle is the best closer in baseball.

 

And this is probably the biggest point of contention with the people that think we won the trade and those that think we lost. So much of the analysis of Rutherford relies upon the fact that he has a "fantastic swing" that will allow him to hit. Except now in full season ball he is hitting for an unremarkable average, doesn't walk at a particularly high clip, and has shown even less power than he did last year. That seems like a guy who is only ranked highly off hype and small samples.

 

If this deal had instead been centered around Clint Frazier or Dustin Fowler OR if it had included one more piece such as Mateo (maybe a bit much), Florial instead of Polo, or even just added Estrada, who is one of the guys with the 40 man roster crunch, I would have been happy. Before the trade came out I liked that we were trading with the Yankees over the Red Sox because I didn't really like anyone that we could get in the Boston system while I liked everyone in the Yankees system except one.... and that was the one we decided to center the deal for our last big trade chips around.