Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[jenksycat]

What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick.

 

Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable.

 

I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS.

 

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

 

It's not that "#1 farm system is the same as a WS" it's that this team finally seems to have a direction after over a decade of mostly garbage. They failed for years to build around one of the best 1-2 SP's in the league and instead turned it into the best farm system in baseball with a ton of financial flexibility. There's not really any better outcome to hope for.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Jenksy Cat

[iamshack]

It's because some will bust that I want as much redundancy as possible in our farm system.

 

But the point with Blake playing hsi way into untouchable status: there were quite a few players in the top 70 or so who some posters identified as risers and really good players that people objected to based on ranking as not good enough for Q. Think Tucker and Acuna. 6 months later they were too good for Q.

 

If Blake shows his talent, a young, talented offensive OF prospect is >>> a good reliever.

 

But I totally agree that at this point we are strictly relying on sox staff. Our initial returns were AAA guys who had been developed elsewhere. THis new crop is A/A+ guys who have quite a ways to go.

 

Can't we hire the diamondback player dev guys who turned out AJ pollock and Peralta please?

And there were also guys like Glasnow and Meadows that we would have died for that now have taken steps back.

 

It works both ways.

[hi8is]

Good morning. An evening has passed and I'm still beyond stoked to land Rutherford. HELL f***ING YES!!!!!

[Panerista]

Good morning. An evening has passed and I'm still beyond stoked to land Rutherford. HELL f***ING YES!!!!!

#smarttank

[iamshack]

The saying goes, rebuilding clubs should always be trading relievers.

 

The trade really breaks down like this:

 

Robertson + Frazier for Ian Clarkin + Tito Polo + Tyler Clippard ($2.5 million owed, Sox pay) + Yankees pay entire remaining salaries for Robertson/Frazier (Sox save roughly $20 million)

 

Kahnle for Rutherford

 

I like Kahnle, I really do. I know he has shown great improvement this year and has been outstanding, and very well may continue to do so. I also know what happened to Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink and Nate Jones though. Relief pitching is arguably one of the most volatile positions in the sport.

 

Overall we should be very happy with this deal, as it both saved the club money and added young talent. Hahn has done a tremendous job stocking our farm system with interesting young players. Not all of them will pan out, but the team certainly has plenty of potential options and depth that it did not have 12 months ago.

 

This deal also greatly aids our tank efforts, as I do not see them winning very many games with such a shaky bullpen.

 

Also, consider we traded Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte...Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle...Tommy Kahnle for Blake Rutherford.................we basically used Gordon Beckham to acquire Blake Rutherford

I appreciate your arguments, and your mild manner, but I would have wanted nothing to do with Robertson and Frazier for Ian Clarkin, Tito Polo and Tyler Clippard. Obviously, it's not my money though, and that plays into the equation a lot I'm sure, but while that way of breaking the deal down is convenient for your argument, that's just a rotten return for Robertson.

 

And the Beckham-Almonte-Kahnle-Rutherford stuff is cute and all, but has absolutely nothing to do with how one evaluates this trade.

[bmags]

And there were also guys like Glasnow and Meadows that we would have died for that now have taken steps back.

 

It works both ways.

 

Yes, but in the position we are in, I'm willing to take the gambles of prospects failing than with major league assets falling prior to us getting a return.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I'm sure this has already been posted, but for anyone who still thinks Kahnle is headed to worthless territory in a few months, here is a nice article with detailed breakdown on Kahnle's success. Also includes a nice comparison of him to another well known reliever.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-white-s...jor-trade-chip/

[iamshack]

Yes, but in the position we are in, I'm willing to take the gambles of prospects failing than with major league assets falling prior to us getting a return.

I get it, I really do.

 

The reliever thing.

 

Does Kahnle have an injury history? Because Nate and Jesse did, if I recall correctly.

 

Besides, I know Jesse was going to get us Arrieta, but no one knew Arrieta was going to turn into what he did either. Jesse really wasn't worth crap, even before he failed the physical.

 

I guess I just believed in Kahnle, and would have personally taken the risk on him.

Edited July 19, 2017 by iamshack

[bigruss]

Like I said, I do think we came up a player short in the deal but at the same time I didn't think we would get someone as highly ranked/touted as Rutherford. It's possible Kahnle gives you someone like Rutherford by himself in the future but I don't think his value was there yet anyways. If he was closing for us in a year I think he would be building towards that type of value.

[iamshack]

Like I said, I do think we came up a player short in the deal but at the same time I didn't think we would get someone as highly ranked/touted as Rutherford. It's possible Kahnle gives you someone like Rutherford by himself in the future but I don't think his value was there yet anyways. If he was closing for us in a year I think he would be building towards that type of value.

Let's see if anyone pays the price for Hand. That might give us an indication.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The saying goes, rebuilding clubs should always be trading relievers.

 

The trade really breaks down like this:

 

Robertson + Frazier for Ian Clarkin + Tito Polo + Tyler Clippard ($2.5 million owed, Sox pay) + Yankees pay entire remaining salaries for Robertson/Frazier (Sox save roughly $20 million)

 

Kahnle for Rutherford

 

I like Kahnle, I really do. I know he has shown great improvement this year and has been outstanding, and very well may continue to do so. I also know what happened to Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink and Nate Jones though. Relief pitching is arguably one of the most volatile positions in the sport.

 

Overall we should be very happy with this deal, as it both saved the club money and added young talent. Hahn has done a tremendous job stocking our farm system with interesting young players. Not all of them will pan out, but the team certainly has plenty of potential options and depth that it did not have 12 months ago.

 

This deal also greatly aids our tank efforts, as I do not see them winning very many games with such a shaky bullpen.

 

Also, consider we traded Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte...Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle...Tommy Kahnle for Blake Rutherford.................we basically used Gordon Beckham to acquire Blake Rutherford

 

I don't think Kahnle for Rutherford is too far off. But did anyone actually expect only two C level prospects for Frazier and Robertson before deal went down? I think that's even worse than A's got for two lesser players, which was considered a slim return. Money saving is nice on paper but we're in good spot financially, would have prefer to eat some money with another team to get a B level prospect in return.

[Buehrle>Wood]

It should be noted the salary dump was a massive reason this trade was made to the point where Hahn mentioned it twice during his announcement presser. That's the very likely reason why the player return ended up so disappointing, moreso than any Sox players perceived value.

[Chisoxfn]

I get it, I really do.

 

The reliever thing.

 

Does Kahnle have an injury history? Because Nate and Jesse did, if I recall correctly.

 

Besides, I know Jesse was going to get us Arrieta, but no one knew Arrieta was going to turn into what he did either. Jesse really wasn't worth crap, even before he failed the physical.

 

I guess I just believed in Kahnle, and would have personally taken the risk on him.

Crain was having an extremely dominating season before going down and was coming off two straight above average seasons. Jesse Crain had a lot of value...of course by the point we were about to trade Arrietta for Crain..it was after he was hurt (and his value had already been diminished significnatly) and when he was about to come back (or so we thought...reality was he was never the same after that injury). Had we sold Crain before he got hurt that year, we'd have got some nice chips. He had a .74 ERA in 38 games that year (and the prior two seasons with the Sox had a 2.62 and 2.44 ERA) while striking out 11.3, 11.3, and 9.6 batters per nine innings. He put up a 2.4 WAR as a reliever in 38 games prior to going down with that injury. That is filthy.

[steveno89]

What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick.

 

Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable.

 

I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS.

 

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

 

Kahnle has been great, no doubt. He very well could continue to be great, no doubt.

 

The point of this was that Hahn felt his best chance at landing a top prospect was to package our assets together. The organization is high on Rutherford and Clarkin obviously.

[steveno89]

It should be noted the salary dump was a massive reason this trade was made to the point where Hahn mentioned it twice during his announcement presser. That's the very likely reason why the player return ended up so disappointing, moreso than any Sox players perceived value.

 

Saving $20 million was absolutely a big factor in this trade. Sox shelled out $50+ for Robert, so saving $20 makes that more palatable to ownership I am sure.

 

This is a business after all.

[TaylorStSox]

What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick.

 

Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable.

 

I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS.

 

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

It was a direct reply to "he was always highly regarded." That's what it has to do with. Keep up, Dick.

[OmarComing25]

Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock.

I'm not a huge fan of only judging trades based on the end results years later. Trades should be judged on both the end result and the value traded the day the trade was made. To make an extreme example, if we traded Courtney Hawkins for Mike Trout tomorrow and Trout got hurt in a freak accident and never played another game while Hawkins inexplicably somehow becomes an above-average regular, would that incredible stroke of good and bad luck make that trade a bad one for the White Sox?

[Knackattack]

Brilliant move by Hahn, taking two guys that probably would've netted meh returns and a guy who maybe gets you a top 100 guy and hitting on a top 30 plus change? Totally awesome

[Dick Allen]

It was a direct reply to "he was always highly regarded." That's what it has to do with. Keep up, Dick.

His arm has always been well regarded.

[steveno89]

I don't think Kahnle for Rutherford is too far off. But did anyone actually expect only two C level prospects for Frazier and Robertson before deal went down? I think that's even worse than A's got for two lesser players, which was considered a slim return. Money saving is nice on paper but we're in good spot financially, would have prefer to eat some money with another team to get a B level prospect in return.

 

Zero chance Kahnle straight up for Rutherford would ever happen if not for the rest of the deal.

 

As great as he has been this year, there is no track record of this level of success. I do believe he has turned a corner and could be a very good reliever, but he does not have the history that Chapman/Miller did at all.

 

Any higher up the prospect list starts to get into what most clubs consider to be an "untouchable" prospect, or one who is only moved in exchange for a cost controlled starting pitcher for example. Rutherford was very much on the table is Quintana trade discussions.

 

Trust in the moves Hahn and Co. are making.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I'm not a huge fan of only judging trades based on the end results years later. Trades should be judged on both the end result and the value traded the day the trade was made. To make an extreme example, if we traded Courtney Hawkins for Mike Trout tomorrow and Trout got hurt in a freak accident and never played another game while Hawkins inexplicably somehow becomes an above-average regular, would that incredible stroke of good and bad luck make that trade a bad one for the White Sox?

The fact is prospect rankings are done by people who aren't paid by MLB teams. So their relevance, and judging whether a trade was good or not based off that, doesn't matter. I'll never forget hearing the story how Dave Wilder BS'd his way into having his guys ranked higher.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what Jonathan Mayo or Keith Law or any of these guys think, it's what the White Sox think. They made these trades thinking they are trading for the correct pieces. Who knows, maybe to them, Rutherford is a top 10 guy. maybe to the Yankees he's a top 60. If they are wrong, the "well Keith Law really liked it" doesn't make it excusable. If they are right, it's all on them as well, not it was a no brainer. They can only trade these guys once. Hopefully the main pieces turn out as well as they hope.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Dick Allen

[BlackSox13]

To me it's really a three for three swap with Cashman telling Hahn, take my wife ( Clippard ), please. Not like the Sox didn't have an opening so why not take him off the Yankees hands for the rest of the season.

[GenericUserName]

Saving $20 million was absolutely a big factor in this trade. Sox shelled out $50+ for Robert, so saving $20 makes that more palatable to ownership I am sure.

 

This is a business after all.

 

I don't understand how this is a factor in making this trade happen. It absolutely is a reason for why we were going to trade them, but it doesn't matter in terms of making this trade versus making a different trade.

[TaylorStSox]

I'm not a huge fan of only judging trades based on the end results years later. Trades should be judged on both the end result and the value traded the day the trade was made. To make an extreme example, if we traded Courtney Hawkins for Mike Trout tomorrow and Trout got hurt in a freak accident and never played another game while Hawkins inexplicably somehow becomes an above-average regular, would that incredible stroke of good and bad luck make that trade a bad one for the White Sox?

This is the best post I've read in this thread.

[Dick Allen]

Frazier, Robertson and Kahnle are all active today. Frazier is not starting.