Reinsdorf Needed Convincing to Trade with Cubs

[southsider2k5]

The dumb fake rivalry? Living in denial is never a good thing. There is ALWAYS a rivalry between teams in the same city and teams in close proximity of one another. Cubs fans hate the Sox and Sox fans hate the Cubs, the quicker people with your view accept this, the quicker you guys can move on.

 

Great example of exactly what I am talking about ^

[southsider2k5]

They said they were texting final piece names all through the AS game which was Tuesday night. And the deal was agreed upon on Wednesday night, and announced Thursday morning. This story said it was agreed upon for days. I did hear JR would never have approved it if the Cubs didn't win the WS last year though.

 

There COULD have been overlap to that. For example once they figured the top of the trade, they could have run it by JR while finishing negotiating the last couple of smaller parts.

[bmags]

Joel Sherman is a very good baseball reporter. We have no reason to dispute what he says, as Hahn himself said the main pieces were in order ahead of the trade.

[Dick Allen]

Joel Sherman is a very good baseball reporter. We have no reason to dispute what he says, as Hahn himself said the main pieces were in order ahead of the trade.

So Rick Hahn hiding at fanfest was fake? According to this, it was Tuesday that Theo said he would include Jimenez and Case.

 

“At that point, he expressed a willingness to potentially include Jimenez and Case,” Hahn said. “We spent the next several hours, including the bulk of the time while I was sitting at the All-Star Game, texting back and forth trying to put together the final two pieces on the back end of this deal. From Sunday morning until the end of Tuesday night, it was a pretty quick turnaround on things. But you’re only able to do that because both sides, the White Sox and the Cubs, have spent all that time and the scouts and analysts and the front office have spent that amount of time preparing to move quickly this time of year. We had that level of comfort in terms of who these players are.”

[SonofaRoache]

Great example of exactly what I am talking about ^

 

 

I think we all just need to accept reality for what it is. There is nothing wrong with a little rivalry in baseball. That rivalry ended up with the Cubs overpaying because they knew if all the deals were close, the Sox wouldn't trade with them. The Cubs paid a lot more than any other team would have because of our rivalry. Don't be mad about it guys, sometimes it works in your favor.

[Dick Allen]

I think we all just need to accept reality for what it is. There is nothing wrong with a little rivalry in baseball. That rivalry ended up with the Cubs overpaying because they knew if all the deals were close, the Sox wouldn't trade with them. The Cubs paid a lot more than any other team would have because of our rivalry. Don't be mad about it guys, sometimes it works in your favor.

Yes. When they discussed last year if the teams would ever make a major move, Jed Hoyer was quoted about a tax each team would have to pay to get something done. So apparently, there are "meatheads" on both sides of this "fake" rivalry, that always seems to have at least for most White Sox fans, the series with the most interest since it started, and I would imagine Cubs fans as well, although you can't tell for sure since they always sell out.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Dick Allen

[bmags]

So Rick Hahn hiding at fanfest was fake? According to this, it was Tuesday that Theo said he would include Jimenez and Case.

 

“At that point, he expressed a willingness to potentially include Jimenez and Case,” Hahn said. “We spent the next several hours, including the bulk of the time while I was sitting at the All-Star Game, texting back and forth trying to put together the final two pieces on the back end of this deal. From Sunday morning until the end of Tuesday night, it was a pretty quick turnaround on things. But you’re only able to do that because both sides, the White Sox and the Cubs, have spent all that time and the scouts and analysts and the front office have spent that amount of time preparing to move quickly this time of year. We had that level of comfort in terms of who these players are.”

 

This is a whole bunch of effort to nitpick how specific he was when he used "several". We have no idea at what point Jerry was brought into discussions. But even according to above, the deal was done on Tuesday. It was announced on Thursday. Most likely scenario - Jerry brought in earlier when the JImenez/Cease barrier was broken, which could have been Monday. Fanfest was all weekend. So 3 days - several. Or it was only 2, and Sherman should be fired, because that is only a couple.

[caulfield12]

The last two players were just roster filler to improve the A teams...can't imagine they meant anything at all to the deal.

 

The only hangup was trading Q to the Cubs in the first place, and that was quickly wiped out by Jimenez/Cease coming back.

 

The quote was something like JR didn't want to be the one who helped the Cubs win their first championship in ages, in his mind, they had to "win it all on their own," but, after that the Sox/Cubs rivalry was no longer the prevailing consideration.

[southsider2k5]

I think we all just need to accept reality for what it is. There is nothing wrong with a little rivalry in baseball. That rivalry ended up with the Cubs overpaying because they knew if all the deals were close, the Sox wouldn't trade with them. The Cubs paid a lot more than any other team would have because of our rivalry. Don't be mad about it guys, sometimes it works in your favor.

 

I agree. Reality is that some fans worry more about the Cubs/Sox rivalry than they do about the welfare of the White Sox, and that is something that JR would have to take into accounting for in a deal like this. Your post only reinforces that this is a real thing.

[Dick Allen]

This is a whole bunch of effort to nitpick how specific he was when he used "several". We have no idea at what point Jerry was brought into discussions. But even according to above, the deal was done on Tuesday. It was announced on Thursday. Most likely scenario - Jerry brought in earlier when the JImenez/Cease barrier was broken, which could have been Monday. Fanfest was all weekend. So 3 days - several. Or it was only 2, and Sherman should be fired, because that is only a couple.

This said the barrier was broken on Tuesday afternoon according to the quote I gave you, and they were going back and forth on the final pieces Tuesday night. Rick also said the deal was agreed to on Wednesday night, and announced Thursday morning. So, under no circumstance, if any of this story is true, did they spend several days trying to convince JR to approve a trade that was already agreed upon. Maybe Hahn is lying, maybe he hid during fanfest because KW was on the phone saying the old man was starting to budge. It's possible, but I don't think so.

 

And do you really think Hahn would say it would be ridiculous not to trade with the Cubs because of them sharing a city if JR was at least somewhat opposed because of that reason? He's a smooth talker.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Dick Allen

[SonofaRoache]

Yes. When they discussed last year if the teams would ever make a major move, Jed Hoyer was quoted about a tax each team would have to pay to get something done. So apparently, there are "meatheads" on both sides of this "fake" rivalry, that always seems to have at least for most White Sox fans, the series with the most interest since it started, and I would imagine Cubs fans as well, although you can't tell for sure since they always sell out.

 

 

I live by Wrigley and believe me, they hate our team and our fans. After their rally I remember overhearing fans talking about how many Sox fans showed up to the 2005 rally compared to their rally. The Cubs were lucky to have a rally on a Friday with no school and most people off work, AND it was hot outside. Believe me, 20,000 Cubs fans aren't showing up to our stadium just for the heck of it tonight.

[SonofaRoache]

I agree. Reality is that some fans worry more about the Cubs/Sox rivalry than they do about the welfare of the White Sox, and that is something that JR would have to take into accounting for in a deal like this. Your post only reinforces that this is a real thing.

 

 

You are looking at it too simplistically. Sox fans were not mad at the Cubs trade at all because they beat out everyone else with their offer. If all offers are equal you don't trade with teams that you compete for resources with. JR is probably thinking if the Cubs win a second World Series while his team has back to back 100 loss seasons it may devastate his business. Advertisers stop coming, fans stop coming and watching or decide to follow the Cubs while they are winning, Chicago media puts pressure on prospects to play well instantly like the Cubs, etc. These are all things a reasonable owner will take into account, just like a reasonable owner wouldn't trade within his division for the same reasons. Your immediate competition doing well while you suck is not good for business.

Edited July 26, 2017 by SonofaRoache

[Dominikk85]

Billionaire owner of the team with the same mindset as a meathead fan.

 

I don't think it is that simple,the cubs and sox share a market and if the cubs gain even more popularity by becoming a dynasty that can cut into the sox revenue. It is a business too and not just about wins and losses.

 

Still the trade just made too much sense and it is good that it happened even if it means a few more chicago kids become cubs fans.

[southsider2k5]

You are looking at it too simplistically. Sox fans were not mad at the Cubs trade at all because they beat out everyone else with their offer. If all offers are equal you don't trade with teams that you compete for resources with. JR is probably thinking if the Cubs win a second World Series while his team has back to back 100 loss seasons it may devastate his business. Advertisers stop coming, fans stop coming and watching or decide to follow the Cubs while they are winning, pressure begins to mount for prospects to play well, etc. These are all things a reasonable owner will take into account, just like a reasonable owner would trade within his division for the same reasons. Your immediate competition doing well while you suck is not good for business.

 

I believe your assumption that for Sox fans being a Cub fan, or going to Cub games is a substitute is 100% wrong. The MUCH more likely outcome for an upset Sox fan is they quit going to games and watching games, as we have seen this happen in the past.

[SonofaRoache]

I believe your assumption that for Sox fans being a Cub fan, or going to Cub games is a substitute is 100% wrong. The MUCH more likely outcome for an upset Sox fan is they quit going to games and watching games, as we have seen this happen in the past.

 

 

False. I work on the south side of Chicago and see Cubs gear everywhere. I lived on the southside in Englewood my entire childhood and never saw Cubs gear, NEVER. Now, I see at least 10 people with Cubs jerseys on a day, houses with W flags, schools and businesses with Go Cubs signs, buses with Cubs advertisements, etc. You are mistaken. Maybe they wont stay fans but there is a legit threat. Remember, this is the first time the Cubs have won a WS in our lifetime. Fans had no reason to switch before.

Edited July 26, 2017 by SonofaRoache

[southsider2k5]

False. I work on the south side of Chicago and see Cubs gear everywhere. I lived on the southside in Englewood my entire childhood and never saw Cubs gear, NEVER. Now, I see at least 10 people with Cubs jerseys on a day, houses with W flags, schools and businesses with Go Cubs signs, buses with Cubs advertisements, etc. You are mistaken.

 

Again, I think your assumption that these are all Ex-Sox fans is wrong.

[Iwritecode]

You are looking at it too simplistically. Sox fans were not mad at the Cubs trade at all because they beat out everyone else with their offer. If all offers are equal you don't trade with teams that you compete for resources with. JR is probably thinking if the Cubs win a second World Series while his team has back to back 100 loss seasons it may devastate his business. Advertisers stop coming, fans stop coming and watching or decide to follow the Cubs while they are winning, Chicago media puts pressure on prospects to play well instantly like the Cubs, etc. These are all things a reasonable owner will take into account, just like a reasonable owner wouldn't trade within his division for the same reasons. Your immediate competition doing well while you suck is not good for business.

 

I think, for the most part, the Sox and Cubs aren't really competing for the same customer base. At least not as much as everyone seems to think. In 2006 the Sox attendance was a little over 2.9 million. The Cubs was over 3.1 million.

 

There are enough fans to go around for both teams.

 

[Iwritecode]

I believe your assumption that for Sox fans being a Cub fan, or going to Cub games is a substitute is 100% wrong. The MUCH more likely outcome for an upset Sox fan is they quit going to games and watching games, as we have seen this happen in the past.

 

 

Again, I think your assumption that these are all Ex-Sox fans is wrong.

 

This. I've met maybe 2 people in my entire life that have "switched sides". And it happened years ago when they were pretty young and both teams were still bad. I have met more people that insist they are fans of both teams.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Iwritecode

[Dam8610]

I believe your assumption that for Sox fans being a Cub fan, or going to Cub games is a substitute is 100% wrong. The MUCH more likely outcome for an upset Sox fan is they quit going to games and watching games, as we have seen this happen in the past.

 

You're not accounting for casual fans and people who have not yet formed an allegiance. These are the people that the White Sox are potentially losing with these (necessary) business decisions.

[SonofaRoache]

I think, for the most part, the Sox and Cubs aren't really competing for the same customer base. At least not as much as everyone seems to think. In 2006 the Sox attendance was a little over 2.9 million. The Cubs was over 3.1 million.

 

There are enough fans to go around for both teams.

 

 

Read my last post. Also, it's not just about fans. Advertisers are going to spend their money on the Cubs, heck the score 670 booted the Sox and picked up the Cubs. The Sox attendance picked up in 2005 towards the latter part of summer and the crowds got bigger. After the Sox won the title, they had 33K attendance average in 2007 when they were horrible. The problem was the Sox couldn't sustain the winning like the Cubs are doing. Had the Sox made the ALCS three or 4 years in a row they would be seeing crowds of 39k a game.

[SonofaRoache]

You're not accounting for casual fans and people who have not yet formed an allegiance. These are the people that the White Sox are potentially losing with these (necessary) business decisions.

 

 

Bingo. As I stated in my previous post. The Southside is turning Cubbie blue by the day.

[SonofaRoache]

This. I've met maybe 2 people in my entire life that have "switched sides". And it happened years ago when they were pretty young and both teams were still bad. I have met more people that insist they are fans of both teams.

 

 

Die hard fans wont switch, they just wont go to games. I would say 25 percent of a teams fan base is casual and could switch up and follow a winner. See my post about the southside.

[southsider2k5]

This all reeks of being more worried about the Cubs being bad versus the White Sox being good, which is exactly what JR had to consider here. When this question comes up there is post after post about the Cubs and Cubs fans. I mean it can't be any clearer that the Sox fan base has a ton of Cubsession.

[Dominikk85]

Die hard fans wont switch, they just wont go to games. I would say 25 percent of a teams fan base is casual and could switch up and follow a winner. See my post about the southside.

 

But what about children who are still undecided? When you are 8 the cubs winning a ws could tip the scale even if you are from a sox district.

 

Also there are more and more transplants who moved to the city due to their job and then pick a team to visit.

 

Of course there are still classic sox or cubs families that would never switch but societies get more open and less locally rooted and there is fluctuation.

[Soxbadger]

I just dont know why it cant be about the value of the Sox franchise if it was to be sold.

 

Cubs/Sox may not be competing in baseball, but they compete for market share/etc which has value when you are buying a franchise. Would the Sox be more valuable if the Cubs were terrible? Would the Sox be less valuable if the Cubs are amazing? Those are legitimate questions an owner would have to think about.

 

And given that the Sox have traded with the Cubs multiple times while Reinsdorf was owner, I think that the only difference is that this the Sox ownership may be considering a sale in the relative future.

 

That is my uneducated guess.