Who Should Be In The Lineup Next Year?

[BaconOnAStick]

No, they did not. If they had they would not have assigned him to high A ball.

Javier Baez spent barely a year between high A and the majors. Bryant would've only spent one season transiting that gap had the Cubs not wanted to keep his clock frozen another year. Russell only played 61 games at AA and AAA for the Cubs.

 

So yeah they like to leave guys low and then move them up through the system very quickly. I'm guessing Jimenez would've gotten that treatment had they not traded him.

[mac9001]

Its not rushing. Kopech could easily be 100% ready this time next year (in fact, that's his exact trajectory) and Jimenez was considered by the Cubs MLB ready. They just didnt have a spot for him. Jimenez at the very least is forcing a AA callup (you could argue the Sox are wasting time and hurting his development leaving him in W-S much longer), and from there it's only one step to AAA. See what Boston did with Devers? It's not out of the ordinary to rocket a guy up to the majors who is playing well enough to justify such a quick ascension.

 

That's exactly what it is, an exception derived from Boston's desperation to win now and unwillingness to give up value in the trade market. They're rushing the development of this kid because they're trying to win now. You're still not accepting the fact there's no one in the Sox front office that's going to be advocating pursing a win now strategy. Most of them will probably be fairly content finishing last as that's probably exactly what they expect and that's what Jerry, Kenny and Rick have all agreed to.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Its not rushing. Kopech could easily be 100% ready this time next year (in fact, that's his exact trajectory) and Jimenez was considered by the Cubs MLB ready. They just didnt have a spot for him. Jimenez at the very least is forcing a AA callup (you could argue the Sox are wasting time and hurting his development leaving him in W-S much longer), and from there it's only one step to AAA. See what Boston did with Devers? It's not out of the ordinary to rocket a guy up to the majors who is playing well enough to justify such a quick ascension.

 

I dont disagree to call up Kopech next season if he shows improved control in AAA, but we don't know if that's going to be May or September. You keep pointing out Cubs thinking Jimenez is ready, but the fact is they assigned him to A ball and didn't even call him up to AA the whole season. You say we cannot trust Hahn or this front office, but rather choose to hang on to one quote by the Cubs FO from the past.

 

Going to back your earlier point that Sox's goal is to get to .500 next year, how do you suggest they do that if Kopech and Jimenez isn't up by July or August or even later? Do you suggest to promote them in May regardless if they're ready and let them sink or swim? Why put goal record-wise when you don't know who is ready for a promotion next year? I am not sure if that accomplishes anything besides signing wrong free agents and limit yourself in the 2019 class and risk of rushing prospects.

[BaconOnAStick]

I dont disagree to call up Kopech next season if he shows improved control in AAA, but we don't know if that's going to be May or September. You keep pointing out Cubs thinking Jimenez is ready, but the fact is they assigned him to A ball and didn't even call him up to AA the whole season. You say we cannot trust Hahn or this front office, but rather choose to hang on to one quote by the Cubs FO from the past.

 

Going to back your earlier point that Sox's goal is to get to .500 next year, how do you suggest they do that if Kopech and Jimenez isn't up by July or August or even later? Do you suggest to promote them in May regardless if they're ready and let them sink or swim? Why put goal record-wise when you don't know who is ready for a promotion next year? I am not sure if that accomplishes anything besides signing wrong free agents and limit yourself in the 2019 class and risk of rushing prospects.

They get to .500 by having a slightly below average club to start the year that gets progressively better as new arrivals come from the farm before ending the session in a good note.

 

Signing Moustakas would not be a move simply for 2018, he'll still be around in 2019. Itd actually be shrewd to be a little extra active in 2018 free agency if everyone holds back to save up for the next year's feeding frenzy.

 

[BaconOnAStick]

Who is pitching for this team in the first half?

Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, a free agent and Shields.

[Chicago White Sox]

Its not rushing. Kopech could easily be 100% ready this time next year (in fact, that's his exact trajectory) and Jimenez was considered by the Cubs MLB ready. They just didnt have a spot for him. Jimenez at the very least is forcing a AA callup (you could argue the Sox are wasting time and hurting his development leaving him in W-S much longer), and from there it's only one step to AAA. See what Boston did with Devers? It's not out of the ordinary to rocket a guy up to the majors who is playing well enough to justify such a quick ascension.

Dude, if the Cubs thought Jimenez was major league ready, he would not have started the season in high A. This isn't up for debate. And Boston called up Devers from AA because they're trying to win a Wold Series not trying to reach .500 in year 2 of a rebuild. This is some of the craziest logic I have ever seen on this board.

[thxfrthmmrs]

They get to .500 by having a slightly below average club to start the year that gets progressively better as new arrivals come from the farm before ending the session in a good note.

 

Signing Moustakas would not be a move simply for 2018, he'll still be around in 2019. Itd actually be shrewd to be a little extra active in 2018 free agency if everyone holds back to save up for the next year's feeding frenzy.

 

I hope you don't suggest signing Moustakas will put this team on track for .500 ball next year. If your response is we will hand out more $$$ to sign other guys, I would tell you why do it in 2018 not 2019, when you can better assess where your holes are, not to mention a much strong FA class.

 

Heck, even when we had prime Sale, Q, career year from Adam Eaton, 40 HR from Frazier, and a much stronger bullpen in 2016, we didn't even win 81 games. Just think for one moment how many holes we have to fill, and how many other free agents you will have to sign to get there, and to accomplish what exactly.

[BaconOnAStick]

And the bullpen?

They came into this season with trash and spun it into gold. I wouldn't worry too much about the pen. They'll find some guys this second half they like.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, a free agent and Shields.

 

How is that even comparable to the 2016 rotation we have, when we had better offense, a better bullpen, and still did not win 81 games. You do realize Giolitto needs more work in the minors, and we don't know when and if Rodon would take the next step and become Sale.

 

If that is the rotation you're suggesting, that your goal isn't to win .500 next year, it invalidates everything you have posted in this thread.

[Chicago White Sox]

They came into this season with trash and spun it into gold. I wouldn't worry too much about the pen. They'll find some guys this second half they like.

Lol...ok.

[thxfrthmmrs]

They came into this season with trash and spun it into gold. I wouldn't worry too much about the pen. They'll find some guys this second half they like.

 

Again, if you're hoping to spin bullpen trash into gold, then you aren't looking to win 81 games. Just stop.

[BaconOnAStick]

How is that even comparable to the 2016 rotation we have, when we had better offense, a better bullpen, and still did not win 81 games. You do realize Giolitto needs more work in the minors, and we don't know when and if Rodon would take the next step and become Sale.

 

If that is the rotation you're suggesting, that your goal isn't to win .500 next year, it invalidates everything you have posted in this thread.

Take a look at this year's Twins. Same division as the Sox and they are one game under .500, are you really telling me the Sox can't do better than that next year?

[thxfrthmmrs]

Take a look at this year's Twins. Same division as the Sox and they are one game under .500, are you really telling me the Sox can't do better than that next year?

 

That same team that has a worse run differential than the Sox? Sorry to break it to you, they didn't come into the season looking to contend, they just were incredibly lucky record wise.

[Quin]

Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, a free agent and Shields.

 

Sale, Quintana, Samardzija, Rodon and Frankie Montas will be good enough for the 2015 season!

 

They came into this season with trash and spun it into gold. I wouldn't worry too much about the pen. They'll find some guys this second half they like.

 

Robertson

Putnam

Petricka

Jones

Jennings

Duke

Albers

 

Our nails 2015 bullpen will also get it done!

[BaconOnAStick]

Sale, Quintana, Samardzija, Rodon and Frankie Montas will be good enough for the 2015 season!

 

 

 

Robertson

Putnam

Petricka

Jones

Jennings

Duke

Albers

 

Our nails 2015 bullpen will also get it done!

Yea that 2015 team was absolutely dreadful and they still won 76 games. Next year's Sox team can easily be better than them by accident.

 

Trayce Thompson was 3rd on that team in WAR among position players. THIRD! I know WAR is not a perfect stat but that is nuts. That team would've killed to have one player on the farm who was even on Nicky Delmonico's level, and this Sox system now has a whole bunch of guys like that. They may not be able to find starpower like Chris Sale, but they should be able to field a more well rounded club than that trainwreck.

[witesoxfan]

To say they are losing on purpose is where you're mistaken. Players are still competing and giving their best effort (they are still playing for their next contract mind you), and competing on a game by game basis. Whether they are winning or losing next year is irrelevant because we know the team is only going to get better when rest of the core arrives.

 

This post is awesome.

 

Consider playing one on one basketball with your older brother, or you and two of your friends playing three on three with older players. You will lose. What did you learn from losing? If you learned that losing sucks and you don't want to play anymore, then you will no longer play. If you learned that you had fun and you want to do better to beat them next time, then that is what baseball professional evaluators call "progress." If you do better the next time, that is what they call "development."

[witesoxfan]

Yea that 2015 team was absolutely dreadful and they still won 76 games. Next year's Sox team can easily be better than them by accident.

 

Trayce Thompson was 3rd on that team in WAR among position players. THIRD! I know WAR is not a perfect stat but that is nuts. That team would've killed to have one player on the farm who was even on Nicky Delmonico's level, and this Sox system now has a whole bunch of guys like that. They may not be able to find starpower like Chris Sale, but they should be able to field a more well rounded club than that trainwreck.

 

That team won 76 games with the worst offensive team in the league, by far. You know how? Because they had Adam Eaton putting up 3.7 WAR on offense (which was more than the rest of the non-pitcher players combined (though that is slightly cherry picked: Jose Abreu put up 0.3 fewer WAR than the rest of the White Sox non-pitcher players combined too - truly stars and scrubs)). That team received negative contributions from Carlos Sanchez (-0.1, 420 PAs), Leury Garcia (-0.2, 15 PAs), Rob Brantly, Melky Cabrera, JB Shuck, Micah Johnson, Alexei Ramirez, Emilio Bonifacio, Mike Olt, Avisail Garcia, Conor Gillaspie, and Adam LaRoche. WAR is not an exact statistic, like home runs, but it is relevant, and those players mentioned were able to put up somewhere around -6 WAR combined.

 

The reason that team won 76 games was because they put up 20.6 WAR as a pitching staff. They had a good pitching staff! They had two great starters and three league average starters. They had Robertson in the bullpen.

 

And that was it.

 

Now, take out Sale, Quintana, Robertson, and Eaton from that equation. Those guys combined for approximately 17-18 WAR. Subtract some here or there. That 2015 Sox team, without those 4, is absolutely terrible. If you are going to use WAR as an exact as taking wins out of the win column - which I suggested once upon a time (and is not unreasonable), but something I do not agree with - then you are looking at a team that was going to win *[drumroll]* 60 games.

 

In other words, no, you're wrong.

[Two-Gun Pete]

(you could argue the Sox are wasting time and hurting his development leaving him in W-S much longer)

 

See what Boston did with Devers? It's not out of the ordinary to rocket a guy up to the majors who is playing well enough to justify such a quick ascension.

I'm fascinated by this idea that the Sox are "hurting the development" of Jimenez by keeping him in W-S:

 

1. Could you describe in detail exactly how this could occur?

2. Can you point to more than one player whose development was "hurt" by going at a sensible pace in promoting him?

3. Exactly what part of Jimenez's game will be irreparably damaged by sensibly promoting him, rather than rushing him up?

4. What will Jimenez fail to learn, or fail to encounter in Birmingham in 2018, as opposed to 2017?

 

Thanks in advance for indulging my curiosity about this topic.

 

 

Insofar as Devers & Boston, I'd like you to show us an example of a positon player that was SUCCESSFULLY scouted, signed, & developed by this organization that went on to be a productive player over the long term. You know, someone. ANYONE in the past ~15-20 years in this system that was rushed up to The Show by this org?

 

The point? Devers is likely up because Boston has been BETTER at scouting, signing, & developing position players that our White Sox, full stop.

[Kyyle23]

I'm fascinated by this idea that the Sox are "hurting the development" of Jimenez by keeping him in W-S:

 

1. Could you describe in detail exactly how this could occur?

2. Can you point to more than one player whose development was "hurt" by going at a sensible pace in promoting him?

3. Exactly what part of Jimenez's game will be irreparably damaged by sensibly promoting him, rather than rushing him up?

4. What will Jimenez fail to learn, or fail to encounter in Birmingham in 2018, as opposed to 2017?

 

Thanks in advance for indulging my curiosity about this topic.

 

 

Insofar as Devers & Boston, I'd like you to show us an example of a positon player that was SUCCESSFULLY scouted, signed, & developed by this organization that went on to be a productive player over the long term. You know, someone. ANYONE in the past ~15-20 years in this system that was rushed up to The Show by this org?

 

The point? Devers is likely up because Boston has been BETTER at scouting, signing, & developing position players that our White Sox, full stop.

 

Maggs, Lee, Rowand, Crede were pretty decent

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Maggs, Lee, Rowand, Crede were pretty decent

Let's see, I asked for those that were signed in the past 15-20 years, & you gave us:

 

1. Magglio Ordonez, signed in 1991.

2. Carlos Lee, signed in 1994.

3. Aaron Rowand, a 1998 draftee, so he does count, to be fair.

4. Joe Crede, drafted in 1996.

 

In other words, we have to go back all the way to a 1998 draftee to find a consistently productive position player. (READ: Not a one-year wonder, like Beckham, Trayce Thompson, or perhaps even Tim Anderson.) Thank you for making my point so eloquently for me.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[BaconOnAStick]

I'm fascinated by this idea that the Sox are "hurting the development" of Jimenez by keeping him in W-S:

 

1. Could you describe in detail exactly how this could occur?

2. Can you point to more than one player whose development was "hurt" by going at a sensible pace in promoting him?

3. Exactly what part of Jimenez's game will be irreparably damaged by sensibly promoting him, rather than rushing him up?

4. What will Jimenez fail to learn, or fail to encounter in Birmingham in 2018, as opposed to 2017?

 

Thanks in advance for indulging my curiosity about this topic.

 

 

Insofar as Devers & Boston, I'd like you to show us an example of a positon player that was SUCCESSFULLY scouted, signed, & developed by this organization that went on to be a productive player over the long term. You know, someone. ANYONE in the past ~15-20 years in this system that was rushed up to The Show by this org?

 

The point? Devers is likely up because Boston has been BETTER at scouting, signing, & developing position players that our White Sox, full stop.

He will use his inferior competition as a crutch and when faced with real adversity down the road will be less prepared to deal with it. Easy answer, really. Jimenez isn't Tim Anderson, he's probably a 100 OPS+ MLB hitter right now. Letting him rot in Winston-Salem because the Sox are gunshy after over promoting a bunch of B grade prospects is the wrong idea. It's not "sensible".

[Kyyle23]

Let's see, I asked for those that were signed in the past 15-20 years, & you gave us:

 

1. Magglio Ordonez, signed in 1991.

2. Carlos Lee, signed in 1994.

3. Aaron Rowand, a 1998 draftee, so he does count, to be fair.

4. Joe Crede, drafted in 1996.

 

In other words, we have to go back all the way to a 1998 draftee to find a consistently productive position player. (READ: Not a one-year wonder, like Beckham, Trayce Thompson, or perhaps even Tim Anderson.) Thank you for making my point so eloquently for me.

 

They all were brought up within the organization within your time frame and made their debuts within your time frame. I don't disagree that the development has been bad but they have had some players

 

 

I'm also not advocating bringing up Eloy, that is ridiculous

[Two-Gun Pete]

Alexeii:

 

Ok, so how about the other questions:

 

Examples of failed prospects because they were carefully promoted?

 

What will he not learn in Birmingham in 2018, as opposed to 2017?

 

What part of his game will be (permanently) hurt by sensibly promoting Jimenez?

 

Thanks!

Edited July 30, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

They all were brought up within the organization within your time frame and made their debuts within your time frame. I don't disagree that the development has been bad but they have had some players

 

 

I'm also not advocating bringing up Eloy, that is ridiculous

But that's the point, isn't it?

 

This team has been the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked for much of the past decade, & you had to go back 19 f***ing years to find a signee that ended up being worth a damn over more than 1 season.

 

The speedy promotion of prospects may or may not have hurt, but it certainly hasn't helped, IMO. It doesnt look like its helped Tim Anderson, nor Carson Fulmer, nor (possibly) Carlos Rodon...

[greg775]

This is why I laugh so much at the cliches out there regarding this rebuild.

Look, Davidson has 21 home runs. He conceivably could hit 30 this year, s*** there are 8 weeks to go. If he hit 30 home runs is everybody gonna still be yawning about Davidson?? He gets absolutely no buzz, no interest in him being a possible stud in the future. No interest in him being in the lineup next year. It's all Burger for 3B, etc.

Davidson is not a sexy name but what if Moncada was storming toward 30 homers or Rutherford or Eloy? People would be going nuts all over!!

Look folks, Davidson given the proper number at bats is gonna hit 30 home runs this year. Yawn time?

Edited July 30, 2017 by greg775