Who Should Be In The Lineup Next Year?

[mac9001]

The So have like 10 top 100 prospects, 3 of which are top 10 caliber, and a top 3 pick in 2018 all but sewn up. There is no way the Astros compiled that kind of talent after one draft.

 

But hey, if you want to run with the Astros comparison...do you think it's worth punting an entire season of baseball to get ourselves a Mark Appel?

 

The Sox would probably love to be competitive next year. It's just highly unlikely given the weakness of our probable lineup and complete lack of bullpen (and probably not much of a rotation). You can go out and spend 50-60 million to try and to be semi-respectable, but you'll probably still fail. We're going to be bad, probably worst team in baseball bad. You can't buy your way out of it, we'll need to develop and graduate some decent MLB talent and we probably need at least 2 seasons until we even start thinking of being competitive.

[BaconOnAStick]

It doesn't matter what I think, the White Sox are not going to be good next year.

That is a choice they can make this offseason. There is more than enough available in free agency (at reasonable prices) and on the farm, assuming they are aggressive calling up Jimenez and Kopech, to field a team that can be competitive on a game-by-game basis. Probably not playoffs, but forward momentum towards 2019 (a season they absolutely must not spend wallowing in the basement).

[mac9001]

That is a choice they can make this offseason. There is more than enough available in free agency (at reasonable prices) and on the farm, assuming they are aggressive calling up Jimenez and Kopech, to field a team that can be competitive on a game-by-game basis. Probably not playoffs, but forward momentum towards 2019 (a season they absolutely must not spend wallowing in the basement).

 

You're assuming Kopech or Jimenez can give you even replacement level production. There's a good chance Kopech will need at least a few more years to work out his command. I'd easily take the over on 6 walks per start if you call him up right now. Jimenez is in high-A ball. Let's see if he can hit his weight in the upper minors before even considering his time table. We also have no bullpen. You might need to spend 50-60 million on just the bullpen to bring it back to respectability. Kopech and Jimenez won't change the fact this is likely the worst team in baseball in 2018.

[Chicago White Sox]

That is a choice they can make this offseason. There is more than enough available in free agency (at reasonable prices) and on the farm, assuming they are aggressive calling up Jimenez and Kopech, to field a team that can be competitive on a game-by-game basis. Probably not playoffs, but forward momentum towards 2019 (a season they absolutely must not spend wallowing in the basement).

Holy f*** you are nuts. Why do we want to be aggressive with Kopech and Jimenez? They are two of the most important pieces in our rebuild and you want to rush them before they are ready because you can't deal with another losing season.

 

And spending money on any significant free agent this offseason would be stupid. You buy talent in free agency when you know where your holes are and once you ready to compete. You don't pay market value to guys that will be part of a losing team and then suddenly hit their down years right when you're window is opening.

 

This is going to be a multi year process. No one has ever or will ever be able to compete a rebuild in one season. Again, the vast majority of our talent is coming in 2019 & 2020. Maybe Kopech and one of the AA starters is ready in the second half of next year, but that's pretty much it. The lineup is going to be ugly next year. The bullpen is going to be ugly. We're going to have James Shields as part of our rotation. Giolito & Lopez will essentially be rookies and one of them is currently sporting a 5+ ERA in AAA. I honestly have no idea how you think the 2018 team can be competitive unless all their young players put up star performances and they go all out and overpay for B tier free agents (which will cost us down the road). Anything is possible, but the odds of us competing next year are as good Big Game James Shields winning the Cy Young in 2018.

[BaconOnAStick]

Yes if they do literally nothing to improve this team in the off-season they will be bad again. But do you know Rick Hahn to do nothing in the off-season? Do you really think the Sox will just sit on the sidelines? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

When you look at whether they should choose to at least put an MLB quality team on the field the answer to me is clear. They can make this team decent without spending $200m on free agents or trading any of their prospects. It really wouldn't be too difficult. They built a pretty good pen out of a pair of cheap trades and some minor league free agents, why can't they do that again?

 

Don't tell that they won't be any good, tell me why they shouldn't. How does it hurt to win a few games in 2018?

[Balta1701]

Rick Hahn himself said he was looking towards 2019.

[mac9001]

Yes if they do literally nothing to improve this team in the off-season they will be bad again. But do you know Rick Hahn to do nothing in the off-season? Do you really think the Sox will just sit on the sidelines? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

When you look at whether they should choose to at least put an MLB quality team on the field the answer to me is clear. They can make this team decent without spending $200m on free agents or trading any of their prospects. It really wouldn't be too difficult. They built a pretty good pen out of a pair of cheap trades and some minor league free agents, why can't they do that again?

 

Don't tell that they won't be any good, tell me why they shouldn't. How does it hurt to win a few games in 2018?

 

You're clearly struggling to accept the reality of the current White Sox team. You can try to be competitive. But you don't get a lot of value spending FA money. If you spend 200 million this offense you might make the Sox a .500 team. I can say with a fair amount of certainty Rick Hahn will not be spending this offseason. He's not in denial, he see's what we have and it's not enough. It's not enough where spending significant amount of financial resources will yield a competitive on-field product. We're going to be bad, we will not spend this off-season and we're going to see a lot of growing pains. It's not going to be easy to watch, it will likely lead to a lot of frustration and disappointment. But at some point things will start to look up and we'll catch a break two. Then and only then will you see Rick Hahn commit to winning. For now, he's going to do what we're all doing. He's going to sit back and watch how things play out and hope for the best.

Edited July 29, 2017 by mac9001

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes if they do literally nothing to improve this team in the off-season they will be bad again. But do you know Rick Hahn to do nothing in the off-season? Do you really think the Sox will just sit on the sidelines? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

When you look at whether they should choose to at least put an MLB quality team on the field the answer to me is clear. They can make this team decent without spending $200m on free agents or trading any of their prospects. It really wouldn't be too difficult. They built a pretty good pen out of a pair of cheap trades and some minor league free agents, why can't they do that again?

 

Don't tell that they won't be any good, tell me why they shouldn't. How does it hurt to win a few games in 2018?

You literally just said they should be aggressive and call up an A ball prospect to help them win next year. That you should signal just how desperate you are to turn a turd into a diamond. And signing a bunch of guys who won't be around when the team is good again (or worse will be albatrosses on our payroll), all to get some meaningless wins, is nearly as bad or an idea as rushing our best prospects before they are ready. Another high pick and the large bonus pool that comes attached with it are vitally important to our rebuild. No matter how well this rebuild goes, we'll always have some holes to fill and it's important to have some prospect currency in the pipeline. If want sustained success, we need a quality major league team and a strong farm system. See the Cubs, Astros, Nationals, etc if you need examples.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I don't like the idea of batting Moncada in the middle of the order this early in his career, where he will be pressured to contribute more with his bat and power than his speed. I see him as the lead off hitter on the 2020 team, so might as well get him the experience he needs there.

[Quin]

Step 1) Aggressively call up Jimenez, Kopech and others that aren't Moncada, Giolito and Lopez.

Step 2) Spend fat stacks on players like Moustakas, Swarzak, and rebuilding the pen.

Step 3) Finish probably below .500, risk stunting the growth of players not ready (Fulmer syndrome) and blow all the room in your pocketbook that could have been saved for the 2019 super class.

[BaconOnAStick]

Rick Hahn himself said he was looking towards 2019.

Ah yes the ever honest White Sox front office.

[BaconOnAStick]

The Cubs thought Jimenez was MLB ready this spring. I trust their judgment. Kopech is on a perfect timetable to be a 2018 midseason callup.

[Quin]

The Cubs thought Jimenez was MLB ready this spring. I trust their judgment. Kopech is on a perfect timetable to be a 2018 midseason callup.

 

Scouts said Robert was the best player on the planet, just bring him up now? Kopech is on a timetable for a September 2018 callup and starting on the team in 2019. His arm needs to get used to the workload.

[Lillian]

That is a choice they can make this offseason. There is more than enough available in free agency (at reasonable prices) and on the farm, assuming they are aggressive calling up Jimenez and Kopech, to field a team that can be competitive on a game-by-game basis. Probably not playoffs, but forward momentum towards 2019 (a season they absolutely must not spend wallowing in the basement).

 

The point has been made, but should be emphasized, regarding service time. There is no reason to prematurely start the clock on young players, who are not going to be harmed by spending another year in the farm system. Of course, eventually they will need some Major League seasoning, but why rush guys like Jimenez, Robert, Kopech, Burger and Rutherford, none of whom will even be 21, at the start of next season? Wouldn't you rather see them on the parent club, prior to free agency, into their prime years? If you start the clock when they are that young, they will be free agents by the time they are 27, just when they should be in their best prime years.

Patience is going to be the key.

 

In the meantime, the idea is to let the guys with some Minor League experience, such as Cordell, Willie Garcia and Gillaspie play, to see what they can provide. Of course, it's always possible that they blossom and the team fields a pretty decent offense. However, the pitching is still not likely to be good enough to produce a winning record. The best arms are just not ready yet to dominate Big League hitters. Why not give them time?

[witesoxfan]

Ah yes the ever honest White Sox front office.

 

What have they been dishonest about under Rick Hahn? Why would he say "we are looking forward to 2019"? What does he gain by lying there?

 

People are entitled to their opinion, but I am quite sure you are the only person on this site who believes that the Sox are going to compete next year and should spend excessively on the free agent market. I think the Sox will probably be close to 30 games under .500 at the ASB next year, and they'll rebound to be only 10 or so games under .500 after the ASB. They are going to go through a stretch of 162 games where they will probably lose 120 of them.

[Eminor3rd]

There's a lot more to baseball than just adding/subtracting WAR numbers. This year's team has clearly quit, they are fine with being walked all over. WAR is not going to capture the aura of dread that surrounds the current squad.

 

It's ok to have one season like this, but losing is a plague. I dont think it's a good idea to have an MVP talent like Moncada waste his service time on a team that won't be trying to contend this decade.

 

It kills me when people trot out one of the typical anti-number tropes like "There's more to baseball than adding WAR," when that's not at all what's being discussed or argued, and then back the argument with something that's completely subjective, untestable, and that couldn't possibly be gleaned by anyone who doesn't actually spend time in the clubhouse with the players, like "this team has clearly quit, they are fine being walked all over."

 

You completely missed his point. He's using WAR to show you that this team SUCKS, man. That's why they are losing. When they were playing over their heads earlier in the season, and STILL not even remotely close to contention, they all seemed to be in fine spirits. Everyone on that team knows what they're in for, and if they're so mentally soft as to not understand that they ALL have something to prove, or to not be able to muster the effort to make themselves better in the face of adversity, then they were never going to be successful in the first place.

 

The Sox are going to sign some veterans to fill some holes, and the coaches are going to pretend like every year is the year they're going to break out, and that's all well and good. But the front office is not going to deviate from the plan until the players show them they have an opportunity, and that's exactly how it should be.

[BaconOnAStick]

What have they been dishonest about under Rick Hahn? Why would he say "we are looking forward to 2019"? What does he gain by lying there?

 

People are entitled to their opinion, but I am quite sure you are the only person on this site who believes that the Sox are going to compete next year and should spend excessively on the free agent market. I think the Sox will probably be close to 30 games under .500 at the ASB next year, and they'll rebound to be only 10 or so games under .500 after the ASB. They are going to go through a stretch of 162 games where they will probably lose 120 of them.

I think they can and should try to complete and on a game-by-game basis. I think they should not lose on purpose the way they are losing now. I think .500 next year would be a success.

 

Whether they will do any of things is up to the front office. To say with complete certainty they will pick 1.1 next year is equally presumptuous as saying they will win the ALC.

 

As for the one defending Rick Hahn's honesty, this team has not been forthright regarding injuries. They don't have to be, it's not a knock, but they don't have a problem lying.

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

There's a lot more to baseball than just adding/subtracting WAR numbers. This year's team has clearly quit, they are fine with being walked all over. WAR is not going to capture the aura of dread that surrounds the current squad.

 

It's ok to have one season like this, but losing is a plague. I dont think it's a good idea to have an MVP talent like Moncada waste his service time on a team that won't be trying to contend this decade.

 

Cubs lost 101 games in Anthony Rizzo's rookie year, and 96 games the year after. So all of a sudden Rizzo became a bad baseball player cuz the team didn't surround him with the right talent?

 

There is absolutely no point in rushing other prospects development just because Moncada was more advanced than the rest. The risk of ruining guys like Jimenez and Kopech by rushing them up is far, far greater than letting Moncada get use to perennial losing.

[BaconOnAStick]

The point has been made, but should be emphasized, regarding service time. There is no reason to prematurely start the clock on young players, who are not going to be harmed by spending another year in the farm system. Of course, eventually they will need some Major League seasoning, but why rush guys like Jimenez, Robert, Kopech, Burger and Rutherford, none of whom will even be 21, at the start of next season? Wouldn't you rather see them on the parent club, prior to free agency, into their prime years? If you start the clock when they are that young, they will be free agents by the time they are 27, just when they should be in their best prime years.

Patience is going to be the key.

 

In the meantime, the idea is to let the guys with some Minor League experience, such as Cordell, Willie Garcia and Gillaspie play, to see what they can provide. Of course, it's always possible that they blossom and the team fields a pretty decent offense. However, the pitching is still not likely to be good enough to produce a winning record. The best arms are just not ready yet to dominate Big League hitters. Why not give them time?

I have never said they should call up Rutherford, Robert or Burger next year.

[Lillian]

I'm sure that most of us empathize with those who hate watching the team lose so often. However, we can all be consoled by rooting for guys like Cordell, Wille Garcia and Gillaspie to prove that they are Major League ready, as did Avi, Davidson and perhaps even Leury did this year. And more importantly, it could be very rewarding watching all of the prospects take their next steps forward, toward their eventual call ups. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see Charlotte with a dominate team, beating everybody in sight, with a roster full of our favorite top prospects? That is the most realistic, best case scenario. if one wouldn't find such a circumstance rewarding, as a fan of this organization, they are likely in for a very frustrating stretch of baseball.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Lillian

[mac9001]

The Cubs thought Jimenez was MLB ready this spring. I trust their judgment. Kopech is on a perfect timetable to be a 2018 midseason callup.

 

No, they did not. If they had they would not have assigned him to high A ball.

Edited July 29, 2017 by mac9001

[thxfrthmmrs]

I think they can and should try to complete and on a game-by-game basis. I think they should not lose on purpose the way they are losing now. I think .500 next year would be a success.

 

Whether they will do any of things is up to the front office. To say with complete certainty they will pick 1.1 next year is equally presumptuous as saying they will win the ALC.

 

As for the one defending Rick Hahn's honesty, this team has not been forthright regarding injuries. They don't have to be, it's not a knock, but they don't have a problem lying.

 

To say they are losing on purpose is where you're mistaken. Players are still competing and giving their best effort (they are still playing for their next contract mind you), and competing on a game by game basis. Whether they are winning or losing next year is irrelevant because we know the team is only going to get better when rest of the core arrives.

[BaconOnAStick]

Cubs lost 101 games in Anthony Rizzo's rookie year, and 96 games the year after. So all of a sudden Rizzo became a bad baseball player cuz the team didn't surround him with the right talent?

 

There is absolutely no point in rushing other prospects development just because Moncada was more advanced than the rest. The risk of ruining guys like Jimenez and Kopech by rushing them up is far, far greater than letting Moncada get use to perennial losing.

Its not rushing. Kopech could easily be 100% ready this time next year (in fact, that's his exact trajectory) and Jimenez was considered by the Cubs MLB ready. They just didnt have a spot for him. Jimenez at the very least is forcing a AA callup (you could argue the Sox are wasting time and hurting his development leaving him in W-S much longer), and from there it's only one step to AAA. See what Boston did with Devers? It's not out of the ordinary to rocket a guy up to the majors who is playing well enough to justify such a quick ascension.

[beautox]

Yes if they do literally nothing to improve this team in the off-season they will be bad again. But do you know Rick Hahn to do nothing in the off-season? Do you really think the Sox will just sit on the sidelines? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

When you look at whether they should choose to at least put an MLB quality team on the field the answer to me is clear. They can make this team decent without spending $200m on free agents or trading any of their prospects. It really wouldn't be too difficult. They built a pretty good pen out of a pair of cheap trades and some minor league free agents, why can't they do that again?

 

Don't tell that they won't be any good, tell me why they shouldn't. How does it hurt to win a few games in 2018?

 

Hahn isn't going to spend much of anything on even tier 3 FAs. They will be looking at the Hector Santiago's & Chris Tillman's of the world as well as more scrap heap bullpen pieces. They're not going to waste $ on replacement level players when there will be other players with higher potential upside for less cost in the rule V and they're going to need to free up 40 man spots in order to protect some of their depth in the minors.

 

Just accept that they're going to suck next year or don't and come back during the winter meetings in '18 when the Sox will be buyers.

[Lillian]

I have never said they should call up Rutherford, Robert or Burger next year.

 

No, I understand that you did not say that. However, those guys are part of the core that the front office hopes will make this team competitive. I added Jimenez, because he is only in A Ball. There will also be at least a couple more top prospects, added in the next two drafts. It's hard to understand the urgency to try to put a really competitive team on the field, next season. You are certainly entitled to your philosophy and strategy, regarding the best way forward, however it is likely that management does not agree with you. Right, or wrong, it is clear to most observers that Hahn intends to exercise patience here.