20 Year Anniversary of the White Flag Trade

[Lip Man 1]

I loved how you glossed over Howry and Foulke contributions and glossed right over the 2000 division title, they contributed mightily.in order to b**** about a division they weren't going to win anyway. Look at Alvarez's performance in SF. He had a bad rest of the season. Also of note, the next season after you wrote this claiming the league had "caught up " to Foulke, he had a great year and led the league in saves. And although you mentioned the Jaime Navarro disaster, you overlooked the trade of Navarro for Eldred and Valentin.

 

I loved how you nit / pick and miss the overall point of the exercise because it apparently doesn't fit with your view of the situation.

 

Who said they weren't going to win that division? How do you know?? Did you have the ability for see into the future? If so why aren't you a millionaire? LOL. They were 3 1/2 game out. Cleveland had lost 10 of 14. ANYTHING was possible. You simply don't know and neither do I. What IS known is they weren't six out, or 10 out or 12 out were they?

 

I didn't "gloss" over Howry or Foulke or their contributions. Gave them full credit for the help they did. They were the only guys who made an impact at all in the deal.

 

As far as Navarro, trading him did nothing to mitigate the impact of the WFT on their attendance (which coming so soon after the labor impasse badly hurt attendance for several years) or on the perception of the organization / franchise locally or nationally. That was a few years after the fact. Had ZERO impact on things at the time. I was looking at the impact of that deal on the franchise five years after the fact and it was significant primarily OFF the field which was the focus of the story.

 

Feel free to take the time to write a historical look back on it yourself if you feel my interpretation was so off base historically. I'd love to read it.

 

Oh and you mention Foulke, in that 2000 ALDS that you say I overlooked (because it had nothing to do with the story as I said of the impact / perception of the trade) he pitched 2.1 innings, allowed three runs, walked two and allowed two home runs.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lip Man 1

[oldsox]

Mark, great article. I had read it sometime in the past, but enjoyed reading it again.

 

The trade was made 3-4 days before the deadline, and I always thought they wanted to trade Robin too, but the outcry was so severe that there was no trade of Robin. Then, he became a FA next offseason and went to the Mets.

 

Any truth there?

[Hatchetman]

They were a mediocre team. Not a championship caliber team. I thought it was a good trade at the time. Barcelo blew out his arm and Caruso turned out to be a head case. But the media created s*** storm made JR "go for it" every year for the past 19! What a mess.

[flavum]

Ventura had only been off the DL for a week before the deadline. He broke his ankle that spring training.

 

I doubt there was a market for him then.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

There was outrage at the time for a reason. I don't think Lip or Thad are off base at all. I am constantly amazed when a poster like Thad is given s*** for what he believes when most of his facts about being a losing organization are correct. Thad didn't start this thread but he has a right to voice his opinion even if we all know his opinion already. He admitted that adding players might have helped or might not have helped but giving up when that close should not be an option. All we as fans want is to know the front office wants to win and will fight to win. White Flag implies surrender and that's exactly what it was.

[Thad Bosley]

How many times have completely different people asked you if Reinsdorf ran over your dog?

 

Either there's actually a Jerry-flattened dog, or you have a legitimate obsession with the man.

Well, if anyone ever asked me how many times the owner of the White Sox "ran over my dog", and I didn't answer them, it probably comes down to the very simple answer that "I DON'T OWN A G*DDAMN DOG!".

 

Ok, so that's the answer to that one. NEXT!

[Thad Bosley]

No. In your haste to tell us how evil Reinsdorf is again, you never mentioned who and what was available and for what cost at the 1997 deadline that would have easily made up the 6 games., and forgot the White Sox employ a GM.

You're a one trick pony. Reinsdorf, Reinsdorf, Reinsdorf....

 

SNL should do a skit.

Nooooo, we had a GM during that time, a fella as I mentioned earlier named Ron Schueler. Should think I wouldn't have to remind your prescient mind about him, Dick, but apparently I do, and I already did in a post prior to this knee-jerk rant against me, but whatever.

 

Do us all a favor and put the "evil Thad Bosley comments" that you are now railing against to rest by presenting Ron Schueler's statements in 1997 about what "wasn't available and for what cost" at that deadline that caused the team's course of action then.

[southsider2k5]

Don't change my message, please. I've never used the word "hate" when it comes to the owner. I have zero personal animosity to the man, as I've never met him. However, this is a White Sox message board, correct? And Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox, correct? And that means decisions he makes as owner have a direct bearing on the team's results and that which we as fans want to support? Well, do the math. Line up the years and years of those decisions with the results on the field, and see what you get. You get criticism of those decisions given the routine losing of the organization. The original poster of this thread brought up one of those decisions from 20 years ago that happened to be a doozy, and so I shared my point of view on that decision. I think I made valid points, but at no time did I inject emotion suggesting personal hatred for the man. I just want him to stop making bad decisions. Sadly, I've been waiting an awful long time for that to happen.

 

You ever wonder how an entire message board all gets the same message from you, when you don't? I've been waiting a long time for that to happen too.

[Dick Allen]

Nooooo, we had a GM during that time, a fella as I mentioned earlier named Ron Schueler. Should think I wouldn't have to remind your prescient mind about him, Dick, but apparently I do, and I already did in a post prior to this knee-jerk rant against me, but whatever.

 

Do us all a favor and put the "evil Thad Bosley comments" that you are now railing against to rest by presenting Ron Schueler's statements in 1997 about what "wasn't available and for what cost" at that deadline that caused the team's course of action then.

You're the guy saying everything Reinsdorf or Schueler did was stupid, like you know better and are far smarter. Yet you HAVE NO ANSWERS. Besides having a problem with JR in which you really do need some professional help, you also are a phony. If your so smart, tell us who they obviously passed on that would have made up the 6 games quite easily.

[Pants Rowland]

Nooooo, we had a GM during that time, a fella as I mentioned earlier named Ron Schueler. Should think I wouldn't have to remind your prescient mind about him, Dick, but apparently I do, and I already did in a post prior to this knee-jerk rant against me, but whatever.

 

Do us all a favor and put the "evil Thad Bosley comments" that you are now railing against to rest by presenting Ron Schueler's statements in 1997 about what "wasn't available and for what cost" at that deadline that caused the team's course of action then.

 

I find that one key point is always left out of discussions about this trade. While it proved to be a PR nightmare, and the ultimate return on investment was disappointing, that team was NOT good! It was at the end of that core's window to compete and the cracks had been showing for some time. Ventura's injury further accelerated the decline. In fact, many outside the meatball fan base may say the window had closed in 1995 when Cleveland started its 5 year run of dominance in the AL Central.

 

Yes, the Sox were only 3.5 games back, but it was clear who the class of the division was. My opinion is it would have taken one of those crazy 25 wins out of 30 games type of runs to not only overtake Cleveland, but also keep them down through season's end. They ultimately woke up and not only won the division, but also took the pennant and damn near the series. Cleveland was a lot like the 2017 Cubs. They got a little fat and full of themselves, and the league figured out a few ways to get their them out from time to time, but it was only a matter of time before they flipped the switch.

 

The fact is, while the trade raised eyebrows as a surrender, the post strike venom for JR is what really fueled the negative campaign that ensued. The local press seized the opportunity to bury JR and the Sox, and it wasn't until 2005 that it appeared to finally be water under the bridge. But, sure enough, someone felt the need to dust off this so called surrender story. I can't believe someone thought to start a 20 year anniversary thread. Please stop, people.

[Dick Allen]

It's pretty funny the same fan base that stayed away in 2012 because they "knew" the team would collapse in the end, is the same one claiming this trade cost them a division in 1997.

[LittleHurt05]

It's pretty funny the same fan base that stayed away in 2012 because they "knew" the team would collapse in the end, is the same one claiming this trade cost them a division in 1997.

 

That early September series vs. Detroit was one of the most sobering ones I had been to. First place team with Detroit on their heels and coming to town, you could hear a pin drop most of the game. That is, when the Tigers fans weren't making noise.

[Dick Allen]

That early September series vs. Detroit was one of the most sobering ones I had been to. First place team with Detroit on their heels and coming to town, you could hear a pin drop most of the game. That is, when the Tigers fans weren't making noise.

They ran out of gas. Sale was on empty. Youk's back could take no more. It was fun while it lasted.

[LittleHurt05]

They ran out of gas. Sale was on empty. Youk's back could take no more. It was fun while it lasted.

 

Totally, but my comment was directed at the fans. Whether or not the team was running on fumes, there was zero excitement in that ball park, other than the Tigers fans. The Sox were in still first place and it felt like a September 2016 game. I have looked at the fanbase differently since then.

[witesoxfan]

Totally, but my comment was directed at the fans. Whether or not the team was running on fumes, there was zero excitement in that ball park, other than the Tigers fans. The Sox were in still first place and it felt like a September 2016 game. I have looked at the fanbase differently since then.

 

When they beat Detroit in that makeup game to go up 3 games with 16 left, I felt great, like they finally got over that hump. Detroit made up 6 games in the span of 16 games, which is pretty incredible.

[kitekrazy]

There was outrage at the time for a reason. I don't think Lip or Thad are off base at all. I am constantly amazed when a poster like Thad is given s*** for what he believes when most of his facts about being a losing organization are correct. Thad didn't start this thread but he has a right to voice his opinion even if we all know his opinion already. He admitted that adding players might have helped or might not have helped but giving up when that close should not be an option. All we as fans want is to know the front office wants to win and will fight to win. White Flag implies surrender and that's exactly what it was.

 

Great post! This wasn't too far removed from the season that wasn't. Emotions were high among the fanbase and I think the organization had a different climate to it. Funny how people still get heated over this debate.

 

[SonofaRoache]

Totally, but my comment was directed at the fans. Whether or not the team was running on fumes, there was zero excitement in that ball park, other than the Tigers fans. The Sox were in still first place and it felt like a September 2016 game. I have looked at the fanbase differently since then.

 

 

The Sox are habitual chokers and it even happened in our world series year. Our best season in the last 100 years resulted in us nearly blowing a 15 game lead in August. Then, we followed up the next season with another collapse. Like I've been saying all day, if this team can put together 2 solid seasons in a row their fortunes will change. But we just can't seem to do that. If this rebuild goes well attendance wont be a problem for 10 years.

[LittleHurt05]

The Sox are habitual chokers and it even happened in our world series year. Our best season in the last 100 years resulted in us nearly blowing a 15 game lead in August. Then, we followed up the next season with another collapse. Like I've been saying all day, if this team can put together 2 solid seasons in a row their fortunes will change. But we just can't seem to do that. If this rebuild goes well attendance wont be a problem for 10 years.

 

There is always an excuse with Sox fans.

 

In first place in mid-September, but they always choke, so nobody could be bothered to cheer them on. It's like Randy Quaid in Major League.

 

Meanwhile, a month earlier I was at Wrigley. The Cubs were in the midst of a 101 loss season, yet fans were still cheering and paying attention on full counts and with 2-strikes/2-outs. I guess they are just stupid.