A Star is Born

[Jose Abreu]

Moncada hr!!

 

I think somebody should eat crow about a certain player that he judged too harshly.

[greg775]

You've been posting here for years and we've gone to battle many times. I'll give you credit, your "logic" continues to amaze me.

 

Individual performance is literally the only reason to watch this team, and the Front Office would tell you the same thing.

I contend though that if we are 10 games out of first at the end of next April, individual performance means very little. How can a player give optimal performance when the team is that bad? It has to affect the little things in your approach. Why move a runner when it doesn't matter? Just swing from the heels and try to homer. The young studs will put in the time and get used to pitching and hopefully do well enough. My point is, all that training will be put to the test when we are projected to be a good team. On April 1 of that season, whenever it is, is when the can't miss guys like Moncada, Robert, Eloy, etc., begin their trial periods. When it matters. I'm not saying Moncada can hit .111 and management will be satisfied but none of it really matters til the team is projected to be a contender. Then the apprenticeship is ova.

Edited August 18, 2017 by greg775

[Bananarchy]

I contend though that if we are 10 games out of first at the end of next April, individual performance means very little. How can a player give optimal performance when the team is that bad? It has to affect the little things in your approach. Why move a runner when it doesn't matter? Just swing from the heels and try to homer. The young studs will put in the time and get used to pitching and hopefully do well enough. My point is, all that training will be put to the test when we are projected to be a good team. On April 1 of that season, whenever it is, is when the can't miss guys like Moncada, Robert, Eloy, etc., begin their trial periods. When it matters. I'm not saying Moncada can hit .111 and management will be satisfied but none of it really matters til the team is projected to be a contender. Then the apprenticeship is ova.

Baseball is an individual sport disguised as a team sport. A team win is a combination of individual victories. A player's ability is not directly tied to the performance of his team mates. And before you bring up RBI, note there is nothing a player can do to get the players ahead of him on base.

[hogan873]

I contend though that if we are 10 games out of first at the end of next April, individual performance means very little. How can a player give optimal performance when the team is that bad? It has to affect the little things in your approach. Why move a runner when it doesn't matter? Just swing from the heels and try to homer. The young studs will put in the time and get used to pitching and hopefully do well enough. My point is, all that training will be put to the test when we are projected to be a good team. On April 1 of that season, whenever it is, is when the can't miss guys like Moncada, Robert, Eloy, etc., begin their trial periods. When it matters. I'm not saying Moncada can hit .111 and management will be satisfied but none of it really matters til the team is projected to be a contender. Then the apprenticeship is ova.

False. The performance of Moncada, Lopez, Engel, L. Garcia, A. Garcia, and Delmonico matter now. The team winning or losing doesn't really matter right now. Management put Moncada, Lopez, and Delmonico in the positions they are in to see how they perform. You don't wait until you're projected to contend to test your prospects. You do it during a rebuild. So, when it comes time to contend those guys will be there if they have proved themselves...or they won't because they didn't. This is simple stuff. This is how a rebuild works.

[Jim Busby]

False. The performance of Moncada, Lopez, Engel, L. Garcia, A. Garcia, and Delmonico matter now. The team winning or losing doesn't really matter right now. Management put Moncada, Lopez, and Delmonico in the positions they are in to see how they perform. You don't wait until you're projected to contend to test your prospects. You do it during a rebuild. So, when it comes time to contend those guys will be there if they have proved themselves...or they won't because they didn't. This is simple stuff. This is how a rebuild works.

Get Rid of Beck, Goldberg & Infante. Bought 5 Pitchers from other Teams for Charlotte who are much better than those Three. We could lost 117 games this season with our bad relief staff

[Chicago White Sox]

Even the walks have stopped. He's one for his last twenty with 10 strike outs and no walks. He's not struggling, he's drowning. Anyone still convinced he'll climb out of this is deluded. You don't have to take the exact opposite point either, but now it's time to seriously consider that Moncada is a complete and total bust. It has gotten so bad that the Buxton comparisons are starting to look generous.

 

I hope he turns it around, but watching him play leaves almost zero room for encouragement.

You are seriously a complete joke. You are getting right up there with Greg in terms of hot takes.

[hogan873]

Get Rid of Beck, Goldberg & Infante. Bought 5 Pitchers from other Teams for Charlotte who are much better than those Three. We could lost 117 games this season with our bad relief staff

Yes, those guys are terrible. I watched Goldberg pitch the other day. He's awful. I think the Sox will have to consider bringing up an arm or two for the September call-ups. The ones they want to develop for the future should be getting some innings down the stretch here. I understand they'll still have to roll out the walking dumpster fires that currently smolder in the bullpen, but we might as well see some future arms get some work.

[he gone.]

I am going to try and give a level headed opinion here - maybe some will disagree but I think there is value to what I am saying.

 

First, there are always rankings that anoint someone the next #1 prospect - when one of those guys is on your team you instantly have HUGE expectations of said player. If you look to the past lists, not all are correct. A lot of times the #40 prospect goes on to have the best career. So let's put the rankings to the side for a bit.

 

 

To me Moncada obviously has all the tools that are necessary to become a top 20 player in baseball. However he's not there yet and I also think he will never get there without a different approach at the plate. Don't quote me on this, but I believe he's never hit above .300 above A level ball. He was able to put up some real nice numbers still outside that though in the minors - but that's the minors. You can have a selective eye down there and take walks and steal bases on catchers who aren't MLB level. My worry with Moncada is that he sits and watches too many pitches. It's nice to see patience but he needs to mix in some aggressive at bats.

 

 

Now what do I think he'll be in the future? I personally think Kopech was the star of the deal - and I've felt like that from day 1. I think that Moncada is more likely to be an Adam Dunn, Starlin Castro, Javy Baez, Buxton type player than he will be a Machado, Harper, Trout type of guy who is a MVP candidate every year.

 

That's not terrible though, those guys are all-stars on good seasons, above average players, but they aren't the guy you build around.

 

Now all of this is subject to change if he gets the right player or coach in his ear and it all clicks. People can you can't judge from the first 100AB's at age 22. Well I disagree .....

You can't judge his whole career from it, but you can certainly draw some conclusion. 22 is young.. I get it... but SUPERSTARS don't go through this rough of periods. He's not a superstar and I don't think he ever will be. I think he's a guy who makes 2 or 3 All Star Games and contributes as a nice piece on a good team and has a season or two where he can be a fringy MVP candidate.

 

 

I am calling him a George Springer at best .... and more of Starlin Castro type (with walks) ....

[bmags]

The talent evaluators I respect like Longenhagen have stressed that Moncada will have an adjustment period in MLB moreso than others. He even mentioned Buxton in that sentence. But those struggles are baked into their evaluation, not washed over.

 

It's going to be a bit scary, but I 100% believe he'll get there. Far scarier to me than his ks (having watched a lot of them) is his RH ability right now. I thought power would be an issue from the right side, but contact looks difficult for him there too.

[Balta1701]

The talent evaluators I respect like Longenhagen have stressed that Moncada will have an adjustment period in MLB moreso than others. He even mentioned Buxton in that sentence. But those struggles are baked into their evaluation, not washed over.

 

It's going to be a bit scary, but I 100% believe he'll get there. Far scarier to me than his ks (having watched a lot of them) is his RH ability right now. I thought power would be an issue from the right side, but contact looks difficult for him there too.

That's terrifying and makes me think he should have had a lot more time in AAA.

[bmags]

That's terrifying and makes me think he should have had a lot more time in AAA.

 

I mostly agree with Rowand44 that the "player x failed because he didn't get enough time in minors" is just convenient post hoc analysis. Buxton would have likely failed anyways, and Moncada looks nowhere NEAR as hopeless as Buxton did in making contact or viewing pitches.

 

If anything I think the seasoning just smooths over major league level difficulties early on or may make marginal differences in how good they are.

 

edit: And with where we are at as a team I don't care that he's up and working on it here, but I wouldn't care if he had been left down all year.

[he gone.]

Agree with the last few posts. I really don't subscribe to the "brought up too soon" lines. For the most part I think those who are going to succeed do so regardless. Those who fail, will fail.

 

Now there are exceptions - I think a Giolito actually does need time in the minors.

 

Let him adjust when it doesn't matter with the Sox and with the best coaches and best talent around him.

[OmarComing25]

Yeah and even though Longenhagen is as high on Moncada as anyone he even said in his most recent chat that he thinks it will be a couple years before he figures it out, and that's OK, we can afford to be patient.

[bmags]

Moncada's swing is just so not violent, and sometimes he seems to half-swing and sends it to the wall. He's smart too, he'll start to figure out 2 strikes and when he pokes his bat out there he's more likely than others to get a base hit.

[BamaDoc]

He may need the struggle to realize he has to adjust/change something. If you are doing well it is harder to change.

[Brian]

We're are such an emotionally damaged fanbase when it comes to prospects.

[chitownsportsfan]

We're are such an emotionally damaged fanbase when it comes to prospects.

 

Cubs are being rewarded right now for sticking with Schwarber. He's not exactly lighting it up overall but the last few weeks he's turned it around and is looking like a quality MLB hitter again.

 

Patience is key. Moncada, for all his struggles, has a wRC+ of 90. That put things in perspective. A couple more of his rockets fall in and he's basically a league average hitter, at 22, as a 2B. He's fine. There will be growing pains and he might *only* become a 3-4 WAR 2B and not a 6-8 WAR superstar, but hey, let's enjoy the ride.

[SCCWS]

Agree with the last few posts. I really don't subscribe to the "brought up too soon" lines. For the most part I think those who are going to succeed do so regardless. Those who fail, will fail.

 

Now there are exceptions - I think a Giolito actually does need time in the minors.

 

Let him adjust when it doesn't matter with the Sox and with the best coaches and best talent around him.

 

I think Moncada needed time in AAA this year more for defense instead of offense. He mostly played 3B the end of last season so he needed to spend some time going back working at 2nd. Then, depending on his psyche, he also needed some time offensively to adjust after the problems he had in Boston last year.

 

[Kyyle23]

Cubs are being rewarded right now for sticking with Schwarber. He's not exactly lighting it up overall but the last few weeks he's turned it around and is looking like a quality MLB hitter again.

 

Patience is key. Moncada, for all his struggles, has a wRC+ of 90. That put things in perspective. A couple more of his rockets fall in and he's basically a league average hitter, at 22, as a 2B. He's fine. There will be growing pains and he might *only* become a 3-4 WAR 2B and not a 6-8 WAR superstar, but hey, let's enjoy the ride.

 

eh, i wouldnt go that far. Just like 3 days ago he was on a streak of 8 straight games with a K. He is an adventure in left(at best). He is basically Sox adam dunn right now

[chitownsportsfan]

eh, i wouldnt go that far. Just like 3 days ago he was on a streak of 8 straight games with a K. He is an adventure in left(at best). He is basically Sox adam dunn right now

 

Sorry for the derail, but he's OPS'ing 959 post ASG. He's been tearing it up. Fangraphs doesn't hate his defense in LF. I've hated on the guy quite a bit but he's turning it around and it looks like he might be a MLB regular again. That really wasn't the case for 4 months.

 

Anyways, a guy on the Rangers, Gallo, is another good example of a guy that came up really young with a lot of raw talent but holes in his swing and who took a couple years to figure it out. For every Buxton there's a Robin Ventura or Gallo. We can only take it one day at a time with Yoan and as enjoy the ride.

[greg775]

False. The performance of Moncada, Lopez, Engel, L. Garcia, A. Garcia, and Delmonico matter now. You don't wait until you're projected to contend to test your prospects. You do it during a rebuild. So, when it comes time to contend those guys will be there if they have proved themselves...or they won't because they didn't. This is simple stuff. This is how a rebuild works.

I think that's the case with the lower rated guys like Engel and Delmonico and your Saladinos and Leurys, etc. It's not fair but the case. But the big boys, the Eloy's and Moncadas ... I think even if Moncada hits .200 the rest of this season and again next season would be in the Opening Day lineup with a clean slate in April of 2019 when the team is supposed to be good. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I can't see them losing faith in one of the big boys while the team is mired in last place.

 

However he's not there yet and I also think he will never get there without a different approach at the plate. ... My worry with Moncada is that he sits and watches too many pitches. It's nice to see patience but he needs to mix in some aggressive at bats.

 

I am calling him a George Springer at best .... and more of Starlin Castro type (with walks) ....

Reasonable post, but they used to say the same thing about Frank Thomas' approach. People wanted him to draw less walks. I think in the long run, Thomas' approach and Moncada's approach is the best. Way better than the Tim Anderson's.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I am going to try and give a level headed opinion here - maybe some will disagree but I think there is value to what I am saying.

 

First, there are always rankings that anoint someone the next #1 prospect - when one of those guys is on your team you instantly have HUGE expectations of said player. If you look to the past lists, not all are correct. A lot of times the #40 prospect goes on to have the best career. So let's put the rankings to the side for a bit.

 

 

To me Moncada obviously has all the tools that are necessary to become a top 20 player in baseball. However he's not there yet and I also think he will never get there without a different approach at the plate. Don't quote me on this, but I believe he's never hit above .300 above A level ball. He was able to put up some real nice numbers still outside that though in the minors - but that's the minors. You can have a selective eye down there and take walks and steal bases on catchers who aren't MLB level. My worry with Moncada is that he sits and watches too many pitches. It's nice to see patience but he needs to mix in some aggressive at bats.

 

 

Now what do I think he'll be in the future? I personally think Kopech was the star of the deal - and I've felt like that from day 1. I think that Moncada is more likely to be an Adam Dunn, Starlin Castro, Javy Baez, Buxton type player than he will be a Machado, Harper, Trout type of guy who is a MVP candidate every year.

 

That's not terrible though, those guys are all-stars on good seasons, above average players, but they aren't the guy you build around.

 

Now all of this is subject to change if he gets the right player or coach in his ear and it all clicks. People can you can't judge from the first 100AB's at age 22. Well I disagree .....

You can't judge his whole career from it, but you can certainly draw some conclusion. 22 is young.. I get it... but SUPERSTARS don't go through this rough of periods. He's not a superstar and I don't think he ever will be. I think he's a guy who makes 2 or 3 All Star Games and contributes as a nice piece on a good team and has a season or two where he can be a fringy MVP candidate.

 

 

I am calling him a George Springer at best .... and more of Starlin Castro type (with walks) ....

Sure they do. Especially over short samples like 30 game stretches. Also, many star players struggle at the start of their MLB careers as well. This year's AL batting average leader and MVP candidate posted an OPS of .654, .740, and .678 in his first 3 seasons. Things really didn't click for him until his 4th season and this year he has taken it to another level (.986 OPS). If Moncada is still hitting under .200 and an OPS sub .700 next year at this time I will be concerned but I wouldn't completely write him off as being incapable of achieving star levels until he's at least had a few years under his belt. Hopefully by 2020, 3 years from now, things will have clicked for him. Thankfully he is controllable thru the 2022 season and still has plenty of time to figure it out in a Sox uniform.

[OmarComing25]

Sure they do. Especially over short samples like 30 game stretches. Also, many star players struggle at the start of their MLB careers as well. This year's AL batting average leader and MVP candidate posted an OPS of .654, .740, and .678 in his first 3 seasons. Things really didn't click for him until his 4th season and this year he has taken it to another level (.986 OPS). If Moncada is still hitting under .200 and an OPS sub .700 next year at this time I will be concerned but I wouldn't completely write him off as being incapable of achieving star levels until he's at least had a few years under his belt. Hopefully by 2020, 3 years from now, things will have clicked for him. Thankfully he is controllable thru the 2022 season and still has plenty of time to figure it out in a Sox uniform.

With the extra year of control we got from calling him up late this year wouldn't we have him through the 2023 season? It's 6 seasons after this year.

[Chicago White Sox]

With the extra year of control we got from calling him up late this year wouldn't we have him through the 2023 season? It's 6 seasons after this year.

You are correct.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

With the extra year of control we got from calling him up late this year wouldn't we have him through the 2023 season? It's 6 seasons after this year.

That's right, even better and more time to be patient! Not sure why I was thinking this year already counted as Year 1 of the 6.