Soha Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 12:34 PM) Considering some of the employees that seem to qualify as a job for life under the Reinsdorfs, it's not necessarily a ringing endorsement. Ozzie would still be managing if he didn't set it on fire. Robin would still be managing if he wanted. Not many people are asked to leave. And this conversation was a response to a response to my post as to why I find it odd Don Cooper is bulletproof to most White Sox fans, considering who they have layed blame about failure and given credit for success for everything else. Again, I don't have a problem with him, but the fawning over him any time a pitcher does well is something I find curious. You seriously do not see all the guys that have improved with Coop over the years? I think that hitters have generally gone the other way with the White Sox over most of the same years would make it all the more obvious to everyone. Nobody is saying he is perfect and that every guy improves. But he's done well and it's kind of ridiculous to compare him to other underperforming employees of JR that have been given 'lifetime contracts'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Soha @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 01:54 PM) You seriously do not see all the guys that have improved with Coop over the years? I think that hitters have generally gone the other way with the White Sox over most of the same years would make it all the more obvious to everyone. Nobody is saying he is perfect and that every guy improves. But he's done well and it's kind of ridiculous to compare him to other underperforming employees of JR that have been given 'lifetime contracts'. It is all dependent on what you have to work with. If you have junk, they will be junk. Even though a few pitchers have left the White Sox struggling and become legit, not many hitters haven't left the White Sox the past decaade and become much better offensively except for Nick Swisher, and it was well known, he didn't work with White Sox coaches. Yet when the offense was bad, it was on the coaches. That would be like blaming Cooper for Chris Beck sucking, and Derek Holland giving up another home run. That has always been my point about Coop. For some reason he hasn't been treated like other coaches. If the guys sucks, it wasn't his fault they sucked. Position players suck, its the hitting coach or whoever is in charge of the defense, or the manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soha Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 02:03 PM) It is all dependent on what you have to work with. If you have junk, they will be junk. Even though a few pitchers have left the White Sox struggling and become legit, not many hitters haven't left the White Sox the past decaade and become much better offensively except for Nick Swisher, and it was well known, he didn't work with White Sox coaches. Yet when the offense was bad, it was on the coaches. That would be like blaming Cooper for Chris Beck sucking, and Derek Holland giving up another home run. That has always been my point about Coop. For some reason he hasn't been treated like other coaches. If the guys sucks, it wasn't his fault they sucked. Position players suck, its the hitting coach or whoever is in charge of the defense, or the manager. I don't so much look at how guys did after they left the Sox, as much as how they changed when they came to the Sox. Just in recent years, guys like LaRoche, Dunn, Frazier...the bottom fell out on these guys when they came here. It tends to work the other way with pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Soha @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 02:07 PM) I don't so much look at how guys did after they left the Sox, as much as how they changed when they came to the Sox. Just in recent years, guys like LaRoche, Dunn, Frazier...the bottom fell out on these guys when they came here. It tends to work the other way with pitchers. It really doesn't. Samardjiza? Latos? Holland? Shields? Liriano? Edited August 28, 2017 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soha Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 02:11 PM) Samardjiza? Latos? Holland? Shields? Samardjiza definitely regressed. Holland and Shields are about the same. If you recall, Shields was getting bombed leading to his trade away from San Diego. But again, I never said every guy improved. But enough have to make me feel he does a very good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 02:11 PM) It really doesn't. Samardjiza? Latos? Holland? Shields? Liriano? So he can't be one of the better coaches in the league if he isn't 100% successful? Age and injuries do take their toll as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:04 PM) So he can't be one of the better coaches in the league if he isn't 100% successful? Age and injuries do take their toll as well. Nah, he needs more fistshaking and Cooper-hatred apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 11:05 AM) I do give some credit for Chris Sale to Cooper for two reasons. The first is that they drafted him with the intention of keeping him as a starter. Cooper had input on this and many other organizations wouldn't. The secondis allowing Sale to retain his scary mechanics and working with them. This again was not tge path that many other organizations would have taken. Cooper is not bulletproof but his successes compared to most other coaches should have hi about as close as one can be. Wasn't Cooper in agreement with management in 2012 when Sale's arm was sore to start the season and he was on the DL and the organization said they were moving him to the bullpen and Chris Sale threw the first tantrum in the locker room we know of and said absolutely not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:04 PM) So he can't be one of the better coaches in the league if he isn't 100% successful? Age and injuries do take their toll as well. Never said that. He pointed out old hitters who failed. Just pointed out pitchingwith similar circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:06 PM) Nah, he needs more fistshaking and Cooper-hatred apparently. Great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:09 PM) Wasn't Cooper in agreement with management in 2012 when Sale's arm was sore to start the season and he was on the DL and the organization said they were moving him to the bullpen and Chris Sale threw the first tantrum in the locker room we know of and said absolutely not? Don't know for sure but I would guess so. But I also recall that it was a move to protect his arm at the time and wasn't a permanent move to the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:12 PM) Never said that. He pointed out old hitters who failed. Just pointed out pitchingwith similar circumstance. Then what is your point? One of the better coaches, average coach, bad coach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 He's one of those guys you don't fire unless there is definitely someone better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:18 PM) Then what is your point? One of the better coaches, average coach, bad coach? My point goes back to my first post, the undying love for Don Cooper is the exact opposite from any other White Sox non player. I have stated numerous times in this thread, I think he is fine. But it's like no pitcher would ever have success if Coop wasn't the pitching coach. I give the players more credit for being successful. If it all was about Coop wisdom, and not talent and execution, Coop would have had a better pitching career himself. I don't think if he quit at the end of the season the team ERA would be a run lower next year because of it. I also don't think it would be a run higher. Edited August 28, 2017 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:46 PM) My point goes back to my first post, the undying love for Don Cooper is the exact opposite from any other White Sox non player. I have stated numerous times in this thread, I think he is fine. But it's like no pitcher would ever have success if Coop wasn't the pitching coach. I give the players more credit for being successful. If it all was about Coop wisdom, and not talent and execution, Coop would have had a better pitching career himself. I don't think if he quit at the end of the season the team ERA would be a run lower next year because of it. I also don't think it would be a run higher. Why does an answer about Don Cooper have to run through everyone else's opinions and every other coach we've had? Its like you are still fighting the fight over the Greg Walker days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 04:17 PM) Don't know for sure but I would guess so. But I also recall that it was a move to protect his arm at the time and wasn't a permanent move to the pen. Per press reports yeah it was "Chris is going to be fine," pitching coach Don Cooper told reporters. "He was upset. He wanted to continue to (start). "But again, sometimes we have to make decisions based on what we feel is best for that individual, and that's what we did." Sale is 3-1 with a 2.81 ERA. "We're going to be trying to make him one of the best left-handed relievers in baseball, not only the American League," Cooper said. "That's where we're at with it." Sale will replace Hector Santiago, who will become a set-up man. Dylan Axelrod will get the first crack at taking Sale's place in the rotation. "This gives Hector a chance to pitch and go out there and develop," Cooper said. "But this is a decision based solely on Chris." @CST_soxvan Follow More Sale's move to pen is for duration of season, at least. If he was injured, he wouldn't continue to pitch in bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 05:22 PM) Why does an answer about Don Cooper have to run through everyone else's opinions and every other coach we've had? Its like you are still fighting the fight over the Greg Walker days. This is a rating Don Cooper thread. I think he is rated using a different scale than any other White Sox non player. And the first posts IMO confirmed what I have always thought. That was my point. If you don't like it, you can tell me why I am totally wrong, or just ignore my posts. You make it out to be more than it is. As I have stated, Copper is fine in my book. I don't find him extraordinary, but don't see a compelling reason to let him go. Leo Mazzoni, as it turned out, apparently wasn't the reason Maddox, Glavine, and Smoltz are in the HOF. Mike Maddox is supposedly another miracle worker, but when Matt Albers is your best pitcher in the bullpen, it's going to suck. Ray Searage is another guy who got a lot of credit. Give him crap, and crap is what you will get. Bosio is a genius except when Lackey acts his age, Arrieta can't throw strikes, and is down several ticks with the velocity . Coop is no different. If they give him a good staff to work with, they will be good. If they give him Chris Beck, it isn't so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 So far in the rebuild, Coop has more than proven his worth, you can even say that he is the most important person in the rebuild so far. Coop has netted the Sox: Moncada, Kopech, Jiemenez, Cease, Rutherford, Basabe, Diaz, Rose, Flete, Gillapsie, and Cordell. Give him some more guys to slip and let's keep the ball rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Cooper may be a little overrated, but he's one of the better pitching coaches in baseball and has certainly been better then what we've had on the hitting side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 How much influence does Coop have over the minors? Because the amount of guys that suddenly discover success under him is a pretty good track record. The only one I can think of that 100% regressed was Samadrzjia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 05:22 PM) Why does an answer about Don Cooper have to run through everyone else's opinions and every other coach we've had? Its like you are still fighting the fight over the Greg Walker days. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 QUOTE (Quin @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 06:16 PM) How much influence does Coop have over the minors? Because the amount of guys that suddenly discover success under him is a pretty good track record. The only one I can think of that 100% regressed was Samadrzjia I dunno, but in 2015-2016 it was noticeable how long it had been since we had actually developed a successful pitcher. After Quintana in 2011, we've developed Bassit but we traded him and then he went on to surgery, and we developed the #3 draft pick into a pitcher who so far can barely stay healthy and who has been a middle rotation pitcher even when we insisted he'd be more than that. For a team whose philosophy is "we'll develop pitching and trade it for hitting!", 2 big league starters over 6 years isn't a strong record of development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2017 -> 03:05 PM) It's amazing just how bulletproof Coop is with the fan base. No other coach has ever ripped fans for not showing up more than he has. He gets all the credit for any success his pitchers have, and gets no blame when they suck. Every other coach and manager, it's pretty much the opposite. All the blame when they suck, it's all the player when they do well. A guy goes down to the minors and starts throwing strikes, comes back and Coop is a genius. A guy sucks with the White Sox and goes on and becomes a decent pitcher elsewhere...not Coop's fault. IMO, the reality is somewhere in the middle, he's a good pitching coach, but not this treasure he's made out to be. Sports are full of unfair cliches. As you said, Cooper is a genius, case closed. There are other things to debate, but not this one. You cited good examples in your other post. Cooper is untouchable; he's the best says the cliche and that's that. Meanwhile, hitting coaches? Hit or miss. I find when nobody knows who the guy is, like our current coach, not as much criticism. But if he's "known" like former major leaguer Greg Walker, he is considered a total clown. Again, Cooper is OK, but it's definitely all cliche. The fan base worships Don Cooper and that's that. And yes, it's pretty obvious he's abrasive at best, a jerk at worst. Whatever ... it is what it is (had to conclude this cliche post with a cliche). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) I suppose he's a good coach - everyone says he is. Aside from Q and Sale he hasn't had much material to work with. Still, I would be fine with some fresh blood. Of course, I would be fine with fresh blood in a lot of places, including the Front Office. Edited August 30, 2017 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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