Sox not in teams watching Otani

[Bob Sacamano]

I think you are making this out to be my opinion. There are decades of contracts that serve at the basis for what can and can't be done for Otani. He is going to be signed as a young amateur free agent. When he is brought to the majors it will be the same as if he were any other player player recalled from the minors to the majors for the first time off of an MiLB contract. MLB has already flat out stated that a team can't have a secondary deal in place for a contract that is out of line with what has been done in the past.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-this...this-offseason/

 

It seems like a team could extend him but if it's some sort of crazy amount and with opt-outs, it's obvious that it was negotiated at the time he was picking a team.

Edited September 13, 2017 by soxfan2014

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Except in that situation, the A's offered the most annual salary. That's what made it a big surprise. We don't have that luxury here.

Again not my point. Oakland signed him because they were willing to do what other teams were not willing to do. His agents were looking for a 10 yr deal or a shorter deal that granted him free agncy as soon as possible. Oakland landed him because they were willing to do what no other team was willing to do.

 

I have been arguing that if the Sox are willing to make him a starting pitcher and give him 400+ AB's in a season, if that's what Otani wants to do, then that will surely limit the teams willing to go after him and since the Sox are rebuilding they can offer him that kind of opportunity.

[southsider2k5]

It seems like a team could extend him but if it's some sort of crazy amount and with opt-outs, it's obvious that it was negotiated at the time he was picking a team.

 

You could absolutely negotiate an extension. It can't be out of line with what has been done historically. Taking Anderson's record setting deal as a base line, Anderson got this. The early years won't see much difference, but maybe you can add a couple million a year to years 4-6 and a few million more to the years on the back end. Maybe even guarantee the 7th year and increase the buyout a bit.

2017: $850,000

2018: $1,000,000

2019: $1,400,000

2020: $4,000,000

2021: $7,250,000

2022: $9,500,000

 

There are two club options as part of the deal that cover Anderson's first two years of free agency eligibility. If the White Sox activate them, they will be for:

 

2023: $12,500,000

2024: $14,000,000

 

If they White Sox do not pick up a club option, the buyout is $1 million.

 

 

Build it like this for Otani. This would get him about $30 million for his first 6 years, compared to Anderson's $24 million so it isn't too crazy if you want to give some slack for his two way skills being unique and worth more. It would also promise the first free agent year at a big number, but one that is sub-free agent market too, plus an option for an 8th year, like Anderson has. The buyout would be more along the lines of a free agents buyout number.

 

 

2018- $550,000

2019- $1.25m

2020- $1.7m

2021- $5m

2022- $10m

2023- $12m

2024- $16m

 

*2025- $20m option ($5m buyout)

[witesoxfan]

Just because you read the Sox aren't scouting him doesn't mean its true. I'm sure they have loads of current video on him .and are well aware of the unique position any team is in to get him without paying him a great deal. It would be negligence not to throw their hat in the ring. It is more likely the Sox make some effort than no effort at all. No front office in their right mind just realizes they won't get him . That would be a terrible way to run a ball club.

 

I guess the way I view it is is that teams have a finite supply of resources, and if your chance is 0.1% that you are going to acquire a certain asset, you should spend a proportional amount of those resources on that asset.

 

Do your due diligence, make a call to his agent, spend a little bit of time working him, but if there is no positive feedback, give up on it and move on.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think you are making this out to be my opinion. There are decades of contracts that serve at the basis for what can and can't be done for Otani. He is going to be signed as a young amateur free agent. When he is brought to the majors it will be the same as if he were any other player player recalled from the minors to the majors for the first time off of an MiLB contract. MLB has already flat out stated that a team can't have a secondary deal in place for a contract that is out of line with what has been done in the past.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-this...this-offseason/

 

 

 

 

 

 

If historicals dictate that players top out at $3-5 million in their first three years, and Otani gets a 3 year $60 million extension within his first year, when the best ever extension for a player within his first year is Tim Anderson at 6years/$32.5m, they will force MLB to act. They don't want to void contracts, but they did exactly that to Boston voiding their entire international signings class in 2015 when they voided 5 contracts AND they banned them from high dollar signings on top of it as a penalty for breaking these exact rules.

 

[/indent]

You actually made my argument stronger with that article with what is in that article " The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". That is exactly what I have been saying. The legal implications involved in voiding a contract for a Major leaguer not some Boston 16-18yrs olds would be huge and want to be avoided at all costs.

[southsider2k5]

You actually made my argument stronger with that article with what is in that article " The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". That is exactly what I have been saying. The legal implications involved in voiding a contract for a Major leaguer not some Boston 16-18yrs olds would be huge and want to be avoided at all costs.

 

The precedent has already been set. They can and have done it. If a team puts MLB into the position of doing it again, they will.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I guess the way I view it is is that teams have a finite supply of resources, and if your chance is 0.1% that you are going to acquire a certain asset, you should spend a proportional amount of those resources on that asset.

 

Do your due diligence, make a call to his agent, spend a little bit of time working him, but if there is no positive feedback, give up on it and move on.

And that is totally acceptable.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The precedent has already been set. They can and have done it. If a team puts MLB into the position of doing it again, they will.

Who's contract has ever been voided at the major league level ?

[Bob Sacamano]

I guess the way I view it is is that teams have a finite supply of resources, and if your chance is 0.1% that you are going to acquire a certain asset, you should spend a proportional amount of those resources on that asset.

 

Do your due diligence, make a call to his agent, spend a little bit of time working him, but if there is no positive feedback, give up on it and move on.

 

Oh yeah they'll definitely do their due diligence and offer what they have (guaranteed MLB rotation spot, regular at bats if the Sox even want to go that route having a 2-way player) but I agree, if it doesn't seem positive move on quickly.

Edited September 13, 2017 by soxfan2014

[southsider2k5]

Who's contract has ever been voided at the major league level ?

 

The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem.

 

They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules.

 

Everything lines up on the MLB side here.

[BlackSox13]

I'm still not convinced. Most of the money would go to the posting fee to Otani's team. Currently that is $20M and it's now undergoing negotiations to change but not expected to be altered much if at all. The Sox could easily pay that. It's very easy to say the Sox won't get him since the odds are long but to dismiss there's a chance for him entirely is a mistake . The Sox may have to wait a while for Robert, Imagine an instant star like Otani and everything it could mean to the Sox right now ! They need to make every effort to get him however long the odds appear.

Otani isn't in it for the money ( though I believe 300K won't be nearly enough) and even if he was there would be no shortage of teams looking to throw money at him so the competition will be fierce. The fact that the Sox are rebuilding doesn't do much to entice Otani to sign with the Sox either. Think about it, Otani is clearly MLB ready and a more advanced talent than Robert and yet the Sox made sure they signed Robert knowing it would take them out of the running for Otani. Why? Because they knew they were longshots at best for Otani so they went after the safer bet that had less competition. If they skipped on Robert to go after Otani and failed, the backlash would have been brutal. The Sox chose wisely.

 

I honestly think there's zero chance Otani signs with the Sox. However, I will admit that I would like their chances much more if we could somehow get rid of the other 29 teams when Otani is ready sign.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem.

 

They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules.

 

Everything lines up on the MLB side here.

You see it your way . I see it mine. It's just a slippery slope MLB would rather avoid in my eyes. If a reasonable and justifiable contract extension for a successful 1st year Otani where the Sox could prove how his presence gave them huge financials gains and those gains were reflected in his contract. , MLB would be hard pressed to do something unprecedented legally like restrict his earning opportunities when that raise would be completely justified.

[southsider2k5]

You see it your way . I see it mine. It's just a slippery slope MLB would rather avoid in my eyes. If a reasonable and justifiable contract extension for a successful 1st year Otani where the Sox could prove how his presence gave them huge financials gains and those gains were reflected in his contract. , MLB would be hard pressed to do something unprecedented legally like restrict his earning opportunities when that raise would be completely justified.

 

This is the key here and the point I have been trying to make the whole time. But a deal like you described of 3/40 to 3/60 comes no where close to that.

 

As to the last sentence, this is NOT legally unprecedented at all. I have given you multiple examples of this being done, both by MLB, and by the NBA which does not own an anti-trust exemption to fall back on. If you negotiate a contract in direct violation of the collective bargaining agreement the contract can and will be voided. It has been done by MLB and by the NBA.

[Eminor3rd]

The odds are long but not in the miracle category. The Sox have some advantages especially if they wanted to extend him after his 1st year. (See my post above).

 

Tadahito Iguchi was actually the 1st full time Japanese position player to win a World Series and last I heard he was still playing and if the Sox signed Otani it would actually have to be for less than the Sox signed Iguchi back in 2005.

 

Iguchi was at Sox Fest just a few years ago if I remember correctly and was still playing in Japan at that time. He has probably met Otani. The Sox could ask Iguchi to be their Otani ambassador . The hierarchy of the Sox front office is almost the same as it was when Iguchi signed .

 

Iguchi is indeed still playing for Chiba, but he announced that he's retiring after this season a couple months ago.

[Eminor3rd]

This is the key here and the point I have been trying to make the whole time. But a deal like you described of 3/40 to 3/60 comes no where close to that.

 

As to the last sentence, this is NOT legally unprecedented at all. I have given you multiple examples of this being done, both by MLB, and by the NBA which does not own an anti-trust exemption to fall back on. If you negotiate a contract in direct violation of the collective bargaining agreement the contract can and will be voided. It has been done by MLB and by the NBA.

 

This is correct, and the league has gone on record saying they are aware that this is a situation they'll need to keep an eye on. Any sort of handshake agreement that would provider a competitive advantage in terms of a team's ability to give him more money should be considered impossible at this point.

[bmags]

The interesting trap the league could get caught up in is what if Otani signs for only 3-4 million and then has major contributions to a playoff team/WS team. There could totally be Sal Perez-esque stories highlighting how such a good player was the lowest paid on the team.

 

The Royals soon after bumped up Perez' contract.

 

What would league do here?

 

Lot of what-ifs obviously but I fun to think about.

[Bob Sacamano]

The interesting trap the league could get caught up in is what if Otani signs for only 3-4 million and then has major contributions to a playoff team/WS team. There could totally be Sal Perez-esque stories highlighting how such a good player was the lowest paid on the team.

 

The Royals soon after bumped up Perez' contract.

 

What would league do here?

 

Lot of what-ifs obviously but I fun to think about.

 

I don't think the league would/could do anything about that. There are guys who make league minimum or close to it on teams that win the world series probably every year. Hell, last year's team had a decent amount of guys making less than that $3-4 mill.

Edited September 13, 2017 by soxfan2014

[ron883]

Rick Hahn 's nickname is college wasn't Slick Rick for nothing. I expect him to pull out all the tricks in the book, legal or not, to ink Otani. I won't rule out a handshake deal.

[Eminor3rd]

Rick Hahn 's nickname is college wasn't Slick Rick for nothing. I expect him to pull out all the tricks in the book, legal or not, to ink Otani. I won't rule out a handshake deal.

 

I mean I hope you're right, but unless it's unmarked bill in a Swiss bank account, the league is going to catch it. This guy is under a microscope and every other team is incentivized to blow the whistle if they're also trying to get him.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem.

 

They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules.

 

Everything lines up on the MLB side here.

One point you tell me is the precedent has already been set and I ask you who and you tell me it doesn't matter. To me that means no precedent has been set if no one EVER in MLB under the current CBA has had their contract voided. It's not like I'm arguing something that is completely impossible. Your own article you posted said the same thing that I am arguing about. It won't be easy to void a contract extension IF Otani has a successful year one. If there is a legal battle involved it won't be a walk in the park for MLB to win especially if they can 't prove a handshake agreement was in place before he signed with that team in the first place.\

I will keep using that quote even if it was written by a layman and not a labor lawyer because it points out the whole crux of the matter.

 

 

"The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be".

Edited September 13, 2017 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

One point you tell me is the precedent has already been set and I ask you who and you tell me it doesn't matter. To me that means no precedent has been set if no one EVER in MLB under the current CBA has had their contract voided. It's not like I'm arguing something that is completely impossible. Your own article you posted said the same thing that I am arguing about. It won't be easy to void a contract extension IF Otani has a successful year one. If there is a legal battle involved it won't be a walk in the park for MLB to win especially if they can 't prove a handshake agreement was in place before he signed with that team in the first place.\

I will keep using that quote even if it was written by a layman and not a labor lawyer because it points out the whole crux of the matter.

 

 

"The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be".

 

#1, source in bold.

 

#2, IT HAS BEEN DONE, both by MLB and by the NBA. The MiLB vs MLB part doesn't matter. All contracts are subject to the commissioners office per the CBA. Did the Red Sox sue to over turn it? Did the Minnesota Timerwolves sue to overturn the Joe Smith ruling? That is two (actually six as Boston had five deals voided) examples of violations of CBAs where the governing body took exactly the action I am describing for exactly the reason you are describing here. Legally there is precedence, and the lack of a lawsuit only proves how strong the ability for MLB to void contracts is.

 

#3, unless you can find a comparative contract to justify Otani by, you have no basis in reality. I have given you comps, cases, and examples of other contracts that you could get away with. You have given nothing except a quote from a source who you admit isn't a labor lawyer. It also misses the fact that pandoras box is already open.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

#1, source in bold.

 

#2, IT HAS BEEN DONE, both by MLB and by the NBA. The MiLB vs MLB part doesn't matter. All contracts are subject to the commissioners office per the CBA. Did the Red Sox sue to over turn it? Did the Minnesota Timerwolves sue to overturn the Joe Smith ruling? That is two (actually six as Boston had five deals voided) examples of violations of CBAs where the governing body took exactly the action I am describing for exactly the reason you are describing here. Legally there is precedence, and the lack of a lawsuit only proves how strong the ability for MLB to void contracts is.

 

#3, unless you can find a comparative contract to justify Otani by, you have no basis in reality. I have given you comps, cases, and examples of other contracts that you could get away with. You have given nothing except a quote from a source who you admit isn't a labor lawyer. It also misses the fact that pandoras box is already open.

And yet you cannot point to 1 MLB contract ever voided after a successful 1st year of an international player in which a contract extension was offered.Other cases are not the same. As you said to me I will say to you unless you can find a similar player in similar circumstances you have no basis in reality. That is all we need to know. You are not a lawyer either. Nor am I. So we can argue about it until the cows come home. . It probably never happens but I think you and I won't be the only ones arguing this. We will see plenty of it soon enough.

 

I think there's a chance MLB would void such a contract but it holding up is another thing.

 

I will also add that 6 kids who sign for bonus money and have contributed nothing to a winning major league team is nothing like Otani having a good 1st season and contributing to the profitability of the parent club,

I don't accept those comparisons as valid.

Edited September 14, 2017 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

I think his only choice is something like an opt out after 3 years. He is taking a big chance financially, but if he can become a free agent after 3 seasons, and is any good, he may be one of the few who opt out that teams didn't regret re-signing.

 

The opt out IMO is at least some sort of advantage for teams. Most big money guys, you give them a contract the last couple of years you want no part of. The opt out eliminates that, if the team can walk away. They get the worth it seasons, and in most cases are given a gift. When the player wants more money.See Belle, Albert, Rodriquez, Alex, Sabattiia, Captain Cheeseburger. The White Sox were happy to let Albert go, the Yankees wish they let their guys go.This guy might be one of the exceptions.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

I think his only choice is something like an opt out after 3 years. He is taking a big chance financially, but if he can become a free agent after 3 seasons, and is any good, he may be one of the few who opt out that teams didn't regret re-signing.

 

The opt out IMO is at least some sort of advantage for teams. Most big money guys, you give them a contract the last couple of years you want no part of. The opt out eliminates that, if the team can walk away. They get the worth it seasons, and in most cases are given a gift. See Belle, Albert, Rodriquez, Alex, Sabattiia, Captain Cheeseburger. This guy might be one of the exceptions.

 

Is he allowed to do a 3 year opt out and skip the standard 6 year service time? I thought that wasn't allowed.

[Dick Allen]

Is he allowed to do a 3 year opt out and skip the standard 6 year service time? I thought that wasn't allowed.

Cespedes did.