Trade avi in the offseason?

[Lip Man 1]

Based on attached, JR and Sox are also losing money with attendance drop. So lower payroll is not pure profit for Sox.

 

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/0...tm_campaign=AOL

 

With respect I don't buy it. MLB teams are making money hand over foot with the multiple revenue streams. The Sox may not be making "as much" money...but rest assured they are making it none the less.

 

Attendance is still important (and parking and concessions) but it's not as important say as in the 1960's. TV is supplying a lot of the income as well. In fact I remember reading where TV money is now supplying 53% of all MLB income, and at least some of that is shared revenue among all teams.

[elrockinMT]

I think we will be competitive next year. Ans even if we aren't it will be fun to watch the young players coming up and establishing themselves. The front office has been clearing some salary so money will not be a problem. I also don't think trading Avi Garcia or Jose Abreu makes any sense. You need veterans to blend with youth, or the rebuild will be even longer then folks have been saying. How many position players do we have that are ready to come up no anyway?

[Wanne]

That "Jerry is cheap" argument is ridiculously stale...good lord. Yet somehow...he still goes out and lands Robert.

 

That being said and back to Avi...like many have stated...unless it's a very nice offer for Avi this offseason... I don't move him. If he continues this torrid pace next year...then you're looking at a nice return at deadline for someone that needs a bat. You don't trade him just for the fact of trading him. He's worked hard elevating his game...and still young. Not a bad problem to have whether you keep him or not and Sox are finally in a nice position to not be forced to make any deals.

[GreenSox]

Do the Sox sell high in Avi while his value is high? Does any team give up some top prospects for him? I think the Sox should sell high in him if possible and see if you can bet a top 100 prospect+

Maybe, but I don't think they'd get a whole lot for him. His HR total is low - and thus I assume his BABIP is really high. While I find that statistic at least 50% phony (it assumes a tap to the mound v. a bash off the wall is a matter of "luck"), most people in baseball seem to like it.

Anyway, I think just keep him until July of 2019 and see what the offers are.

[greg775]

Do you ever get tired of repeating yourself in literally every single conspiracy-themed post?

 

You know what? If the Sox payroll next year, for the team, is 15 million dollars, WHO THE HELL CARES?

 

They are going to suck next year, get used to it now. It's part of the plan.

 

And you know what? That's completely fine, they aren't ready to win.

 

As for me this is the last time I'm going to respond or read any of your tripe.

You are definitely the man, Lip Man, but I hate to see JR make a ton of money on teams this bad. Aren't you offended that he and his partners get all this $$$ while the fan has to pay 8 or 9 bucks, whatever it is for a hot dog and whatever it is for parking? I think Jerry should feel the pain of a rebuild as well as the fans. I'd hate a $15 million payroll knowing JR gets all that profit.

 

That "Jerry is cheap" argument is ridiculously stale...good lord. Yet somehow...he still goes out and lands Robert.

 

That being said and back to Avi...like many have stated...unless it's a very nice offer for Avi this offseason... I don't move him. If he continues this torrid pace next year...then you're looking at a nice return at deadline for someone that needs a bat. You don't trade him just for the fact of trading him. He's worked hard elevating his game...and still young. Not a bad problem to have whether you keep him or not and Sox are finally in a nice position to not be forced to make any deals.

I think throughout his tenure there could be an argument he is cheap. I'm amazed so many fans seem to think the lower the payroll the better. It's like any significant contract is scorned right now during the rebuild. The Sox aren't moving as we have discussed ad nauseum so why shouldn't the Sox owner make less profit and have a high payroll to go with the Robert signing? Jerry should buy you frugal people a few drinks at least this offseason. He should meet you in the bar and thank u for your position. I'm serious by the way. A lot of cities would run an owner out of town for not having a high payroll in a city as big as Chicago.

[Wanne]

I think throughout his tenure there could be an argument he is cheap. I'm amazed so many fans seem to think the lower the payroll the better. It's like any significant contract is scorned right now during the rebuild. The Sox aren't moving as we have discussed ad nauseum so why shouldn't the Sox owner make less profit and have a high payroll to go with the Robert signing? Jerry should buy you frugal people a few drinks at least this offseason. He should meet you in the bar and thank u for your position. I'm serious by the way. A lot of cities would run an owner out of town for not having a high payroll in a city as big as Chicago.

 

Joey Belle and Pudge Fisk say "Shaddup Greg"!!! You equate throwing money around willy-nilly (love that phrase btw) to being a good owner? Maybe Jerry should buy you a new attitude...your shtick has gotten pretty stale. And no...I'm not offended. Go be a Cub fan for crap sakes...

[Sleepy Harold]

You are definitely the man, Lip Man, but I hate to see JR make a ton of money on teams this bad. Aren't you offended that he and his partners get all this $$$ while the fan has to pay 8 or 9 bucks, whatever it is for a hot dog and whatever it is for parking? I think Jerry should feel the pain of a rebuild as well as the fans. I'd hate a $15 million payroll knowing JR gets all that profit.

 

 

I think throughout his tenure there could be an argument he is cheap. I'm amazed so many fans seem to think the lower the payroll the better. It's like any significant contract is scorned right now during the rebuild. The Sox aren't moving as we have discussed ad nauseum so why shouldn't the Sox owner make less profit and have a high payroll to go with the Robert signing? Jerry should buy you frugal people a few drinks at least this offseason. He should meet you in the bar and thank u for your position. I'm serious by the way. A lot of cities would run an owner out of town for not having a high payroll in a city as big as Chicago.

STOP

[Thad Bosley]

Agree. And please stop with the "more money in JR's pocket" bull. The Sox are rebuilding not to put money in the owner's pocket but to get ready to put the team in a position to compete and win in the future. They will spend money when the time is right.

No doubt they will. The questions then how much money and on whom? The time to spend money was "right" in the four years preceding this clunker of a season, when we had the last solid, cost-controlled set of "core" players. Yet the amount of money the Sox spent was in line with the amount of money small market teams like Minnesota and Kansas City were expending in payroll, and it was spent across a bunch of mid-tier to scrap heap types of talent. So when you say they will "spend money when the time is right", will the spending strategy be different than the one that failed so miserably from '13-'16?

[Balta1701]

No doubt they will. The questions then how much money and on whom? The time to spend money was "right" in the four years preceding this clunker of a season, when we had the last solid, cost-controlled set of "core" players. Yet the amount of money the Sox spent was in line with the amount of money small market teams like Minnesota and Kansas City were expending in payroll, and it was spent across a bunch of mid-tier to scrap heap types of talent. So when you say they will "spend money when the time is right", will the spending strategy be different than the one that failed so miserably from '13-'16?

The White Sox spent some of their highest payrolls in team history during those seasons and as you noted got no where close.

 

Here's the basic problem - the White Sox did not have a strong "cost-controlled set of core players". They had a pair of excellent players and about 2 other good players to go with them, and then a roster full of waste. They had to bring in "mid-tier scrap heap types" every year because they had so many different positions they needed to fill alongside that small group. They had no roster depth, and the tiny bits of roster depth they did manage to create Rick Hahn would immediately package for his next big name acquisition. With no roster depth and 5-6 key positions to fill every single year, they weren't going to be able to spend their way out of it, with the failure rate on the FA market, without challenging the Dodgers in payroll - they had too many needs.

 

What they need to create is the opposite situation - they need to create a situation where they have roster and organizational depth. They need to create a situation where they know they have 1 or 2 obvious needs. Fill the OF, starting rotation, 2b, and leave either 3b or SS as a weak spot and they know they need to go out and grab a 3b or SS and maybe bullpen help. That's manageable in an offseason without having to go scrap heap diving.

[jenksycat]

The White Sox spent some of their highest payrolls in team history during those seasons and as you noted got no where close.

 

Here's the basic problem - the White Sox did not have a strong "cost-controlled set of core players". They had a pair of excellent players and about 2 other good players to go with them, and then a roster full of waste. They had to bring in "mid-tier scrap heap types" every year because they had so many different positions they needed to fill alongside that small group. They had no roster depth, and the tiny bits of roster depth they did manage to create Rick Hahn would immediately package for his next big name acquisition. With no roster depth and 5-6 key positions to fill every single year, they weren't going to be able to spend their way out of it, with the failure rate on the FA market, without challenging the Dodgers in payroll - they had too many needs.

 

What they need to create is the opposite situation - they need to create a situation where they have roster and organizational depth. They need to create a situation where they know they have 1 or 2 obvious needs. Fill the OF, starting rotation, 2b, and leave either 3b or SS as a weak spot and they know they need to go out and grab a 3b or SS and maybe bullpen help. That's manageable in an offseason without having to go scrap heap diving.

 

This should be a bot auto-post anytime one of the handful of Greg's post about cheapness/tanking for profit/etc/etc

 

The Sox have spent the last decade of offseasons needing to fill more holes on the team than having actual competent players and had to resort to basically buying a roll of scratch offs because the only other option would be to have a 400m payroll. If this thing goes right they should have hopefully at most 2-3 true holes to fill in 2020 range and be ready to have great teams for most of the 20's

Edited September 6, 2017 by Jenksy Cat

[Lip Man 1]

The White Sox spent some of their highest payrolls in team history during those seasons and as you noted got no where close.

 

Here's the basic problem - the White Sox did not have a strong "cost-controlled set of core players". They had a pair of excellent players and about 2 other good players to go with them, and then a roster full of waste. They had to bring in "mid-tier scrap heap types" every year because they had so many different positions they needed to fill alongside that small group. They had no roster depth, and the tiny bits of roster depth they did manage to create Rick Hahn would immediately package for his next big name acquisition. With no roster depth and 5-6 key positions to fill every single year, they weren't going to be able to spend their way out of it, with the failure rate on the FA market, without challenging the Dodgers in payroll - they had too many needs.

 

What they need to create is the opposite situation - they need to create a situation where they have roster and organizational depth. They need to create a situation where they know they have 1 or 2 obvious needs. Fill the OF, starting rotation, 2b, and leave either 3b or SS as a weak spot and they know they need to go out and grab a 3b or SS and maybe bullpen help. That's manageable in an offseason without having to go scrap heap diving.

 

Well done sir!

[greg775]

Joey Belle and Pudge Fisk say "Shaddup Greg"!!! You equate throwing money around willy-nilly (love that phrase btw) to being a good owner? Maybe Jerry should buy you a new attitude...your shtick has gotten pretty stale. And no...I'm not offended. Go be a Cub fan for crap sakes...

Some of us don't trust Jerry or the front office. Many of you do. Do you gladly pay the cost of parking with a smile on your face? Do you gladly pay over 10 bucks for your hot dog and beer? Probably closer to 20. For that reason I want jerry to spend as well. Sorry if it's my "schtick." I'll give 'em credit if we dominate the 2000s or win a WS or two. Or win the AL a few seasons.

Edited September 6, 2017 by greg775

[WBWSF]

You are definitely the man, Lip Man, but I hate to see JR make a ton of money on teams this bad. Aren't you offended that he and his partners get all this $$$ while the fan has to pay 8 or 9 bucks, whatever it is for a hot dog and whatever it is for parking? I think Jerry should feel the pain of a rebuild as well as the fans. I'd hate a $15 million payroll knowing JR gets all that profit.

 

 

I think throughout his tenure there could be an argument he is cheap. I'm amazed so many fans seem to think the lower the payroll the better. It's like any significant contract is scorned right now during the rebuild. The Sox aren't moving as we have discussed ad nauseum so why shouldn't the Sox owner make less profit and have a high payroll to go with the Robert signing? Jerry should buy you frugal people a few drinks at least this offseason. He should meet you in the bar and thank u for your position. I'm serious by the way. A lot of cities would run an owner out of town for not having a high payroll in a city as big as Chicago.

JR bidded on buying the New York Mets before he bought the White Sox. I wish he would have been successful in his bid for the Mets. Unfortunately it didn't turn out that way. If he would have been the owner of the Mets and been as bad an owner in New York as he has been with the White Sox, the New York media would have dumped all over him.

 

[jenksycat]

Some of us don't trust Jerry or the front office. Many of you do. Do you gladly pay the cost of parking with a smile on your face? Do you gladly pay over 10 bucks for your hot dog and beer? Probably closer to 20. For that reason I want jerry to spend as well. Sorry if it's my "schtick." I'll give 'em credit if we dominate the 2000s or win a WS or two. Or win the AL a few seasons.

 

So your arguments are:

 

1.) Jerry prices parking and hot dogs too high.

2.) Jerry doesn't sign non-existent free agents when the team is rebuilding

 

Sound, sound arguments.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Jenksy Cat

[SCCWS]

So your arguments are:

 

1.) Jerry prices parking and hot dogs too high.

2.) Jerry doesn't sign non-existent free agents when the team is rebuilding

 

Sound, sound arguments.

 

What is the cost to park for a White Sox game???I know Boston is approx $40 for baseball and Patriots in suburbs is also $40.

 

[Sleepy Harold]

What is the cost to park for a White Sox game???I know Boston is approx $40 for baseball and Patriots in suburbs is also $40.

$20 Mon-Sat, $10 on Sundays (Family Sundays). Definitely the cheapest of the Chicago professional teams.

[BlackSox13]

What is the cost to park for a White Sox game???I know Boston is approx $40 for baseball and Patriots in suburbs is also $40.

20 bucks Monday-Saturday, 10 on Sunday.

[BlackSox13]

$20 Mon-Sat, $10 on Sundays (Family Sundays). Definitely the cheapest of the Chicago professional teams.

Well done sir.

[southsider2k5]

$20 Mon-Sat, $10 on Sundays (Family Sundays). Definitely the cheapest of the Chicago professional teams.

 

As are their ticket prices.

[Sleepy Harold]

Well done sir.

Likewise my good man.

[greg775]

So your arguments are:

 

1.) Jerry prices parking and hot dogs too high.

2.) Jerry doesn't sign non-existent free agents when the team is rebuilding

 

Sound, sound arguments.

Not really so.

I am offended that fans are all for Jerry saving money and us having a very low payroll. Want to stir people up on Soxtalk? Mention trying to sign somebody for some $$. I don't understand why Jerry makes your life miserable as a fan in terms of prices and you want to cut him a break and let him have a 40 million dollar payroll. This site is full of management lovers and I don't understand why. If it's because of 2005, say so. I might be able to embrace that, since I loved the title. Aside from that? Blah.

I feel the Sox have a bunch of studs Hahn acquired and we should win someday, but there will still be a lotta work to do to win with the studs. They are gonna have to build a bullpen and build a defense to go with the bats. Without that we go nowhere.

2.) I don't see why he signed guys like Holland and Pelfrey and let his peeps acquire Shields. All three are offensively bad. I mean if we are purposely tanking, fine, but if that's so, baseball should at least fine the White Sox for making it obvious.

That said ... GO SOX!

Edited September 7, 2017 by greg775

[Harry Chappas]

Lady that works for me drove to her dentist in loop for one hour parking was $38. I hate paying for parking.

[jenksycat]

Not really so.

I am offended that fans are all for Jerry saving money and us having a very low payroll. Want to stir people up on Soxtalk? Mention trying to sign somebody for some $$. I don't understand why Jerry makes your life miserable as a fan in terms of prices and you want to cut him a break and let him have a 40 million dollar payroll. This site is full of management lovers and I don't understand why. If it's because of 2005, say so. I might be able to embrace that, since I loved the title. Aside from that? Blah.

I feel the Sox have a bunch of studs Hahn acquired and we should win someday, but there will still be a lotta work to do to win with the studs. They are gonna have to build a bullpen and build a defense to go with the bats. Without that we go nowhere.

2.) I don't see why he signed guys like Holland and Pelfrey and let his peeps acquire Shields. All three are offensively bad. I mean if we are purposely tanking, fine, but if that's so, baseball should at least fine the White Sox for making it obvious.

That said ... GO SOX!

 

I've asked several times but you ignore any request for logic yet I'll try again for some reason:

 

1) Who should they have signed? Name a real life person, not a mythical elite 25 year old stud that will sign for 10 million that I think you picture in your mind.

2) Since the mythical players in your mind are just that, do you not believe in payroll caps or do you think the team's payroll should be 200mil? 300 mil? Is there a cap or should they spend like the Giambi Yankee days?

3) Say they do commit to a bunch of guys just to appease you and have a 150m payroll and win 80 games instead of 70 next year. What happens when those guys flop or are taking time away from a legit prospect 2 years down the road? What happens when you have a solid young core in 2020 but you stupidly committed money to a bunch of aging stars in 2018 so you no longer have any money to fill real holes?

 

Do you not see how stupid it would be to commit long term money to guys now before we know what our needs will be a couple years from now when all these kids make their way up?

 

Also, YOU claiming anyone is basing anything off of 2005 is incredible.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Jenksy Cat

[southsider2k5]

Scott Merkin‏Verified account @scottmerkin 2h2 hours ago Next step for Avi: sustaining success at plate http://atmlb.com/2wVbyw9 via @mlb

 

 

[greg775]

I've asked several times but you ignore any request for logic yet I'll try again for some reason:

 

1) Who should they have signed? Name a real life person, not a mythical elite 25 year old stud that will sign for 10 million that I think you picture in your mind.

2) Since the mythical players in your mind are just that, do you not believe in payroll caps or do you think the team's payroll should be 200mil? 300 mil? Is there a cap or should they spend like the Giambi Yankee days?

3) Say they do commit to a bunch of guys just to appease you and have a 150m payroll and win 80 games instead of 70 next year. What happens when those guys flop or are taking time away from a legit prospect 2 years down the road? What happens when you have a solid young core in 2020 but you stupidly committed money to a bunch of aging stars in 2018 so you no longer have any money to fill real holes?

 

Do you not see how stupid it would be to commit long term money to guys now before we know what our needs will be a couple years from now when all these kids make their way up?

 

Also, YOU claiming anyone is basing anything off of 2005 is incredible.

You've got me on the first question. I don't have time right now to check all the free agents, who was available and if they did well or not. I know Cespedes and Grandy were talked bout for a while. Were there any catchers available? I forget.

2.) personally yes I want a high payroll. I mean we're not going to win the pennant with all kids. Even the Royals built up their payroll for the recent good years by acquiring some guys to fill needs.

3.) Some may say the ship has sailed right now as far as need to sign free agents until the guys we got in trade are ready. But I think with a good manager we could have kept Sale and Q and stayed the course and made some acquisitions heading into the season that probably would have made us a contender. We had a good closer and two aces in Sale and Q, etc.

yes in answer to your last question I see it is probably dumb now to spend money for veteran free agents who won't help the rebuild. Now that the roster has been gutted and we've acquired a batch of studs the only thing to do is to wait for the reinforcements to arrive. However ... in theory do I want the Sox to have a 150 to 200 mill payroll? Of course. I'm not a management guy. This same management team gave us Robin Ventura as manager. They've acquired some horrific ballplayers to make me doubt them. Yes I want them to spend til it hurts. Fans witih 3 kids and wife spend til it hurts.

GO SOX!