Adam Engel

[southsider2k5]

Here is what MLB had to say about him, last year, in their Pipeline assessments, which rated his speed as 80:

 

Engel was one of the best athletes and biggest enigmas in the 2013 Draft, which is why he lasted 19 rounds and signed for $100,000. He batted just .265 with two homers in three years at Louisville and provided inconsistent production in his first three pro seasons. He led the Class A Advanced Carolina League with 90 runs and 65 steals last year, but also topped the circuit with 132 strikeouts and posted just a .704 OPS at age 23.

 

But Engel made adjustments in the second half and flourished in the Arizona Fall League, winning MVP honors while pacing the prospect showcase in batting (.403), on-base percentage (.536) and slugging (.642). Though AFL statistics must be taken with a grain of salt, his right-handed swing was much smoother and his rhythm and timing were much improved. He seemed to recognize pitches better and was able to stay back on balls and drive them more consistently.

 

Engel never has lacked for strength or bat speed, and if he can become even an average hitter with average power he can make a huge impact at the big league level. His top-of-the-line speed makes him a disruptive force on the bases and a defensive asset in center field, where he shows fine instincts. Even if his AFL performance was a mirage, his tools should allow him to contribute as a fourth outfielder.

 

Sure. But if you can point out multiple players who are faster, you can't call him an 80... just by definition.

 

Let me put it this way, Billy Hamilton is an 80 speed. Do you see Adam Engel as that fast? I have not seen a single report that puts him into that category. Yoan Moncada and Alen Hansen are probably 70-75's. Would you put Engel in those categories? I wouldn't. To me that means he can be rated the same as any of those guys.

[Lillian]

Sure. But if you can point out multiple players who are faster, you can't call him an 80... just by definition.

 

Let me put it this way, Billy Hamilton is an 80 speed. Do you see Adam Engel as that fast? I have not seen a single report that puts him into that category. Yoan Moncada and Alen Hansen are probably 70-75's. Would you put Engel in those categories? I wouldn't. To me that means he can be rated the same as any of those guys.

 

Perhaps you didn't read the entire quote. MLB Pipeline rated his speed as 80, last year. Who am I to argue with MLB Pipeline? They currently rate Moncada's speed a 65, which I admit seems a little low.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Lillian

[southsider2k5]

Perhaps you didn't read the entire quote. MLB Pipeline rated his speed as 80, last year. Who am I to argue with MLB Pipeline? They currently rate Moncada's speed a 65, which I admit seems a little low.

 

I read the quote and then put holes into it. Adam Engel is NOT as fast as Billy Hamilton. No way. I don't think he is even the fasted guy on his own team. That belongs to either Hansen or Moncada. That makes three guys who are clearly above Engel, which makes it impossible for me to call him an 80.

[Lillian]

I read the quote and then put holes into it. Adam Engel is NOT as fast as Billy Hamilton. No way. I don't think he is even the fasted guy on his own team. That belongs to either Hansen or Moncada. That makes three guys who are clearly above Engel, which makes it impossible for me to call him an 80.

 

So, am I to assume that MLB Pipeline and FutureSox are not reasonably accurate sources for such grades? What would be a better source, without having to pay for a subscription?

Edited September 6, 2017 by Lillian

[Jose Abreu]

Hamilton and Buxton are probably the only true 80s out there. Moncada may be a 75/80

[Lillian]

Here you go, Gentlemen:

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/242451240/al...g-speed-to-sox/

[southsider2k5]

So, am I to assume that MLB Pipeline and FutureSox are not reasonably accurate sources for such grades? What would be a better source, without having to pay for a subscription?

 

I don't recall FS ever giving him an 80 grade. Link?

[southsider2k5]

Here you go, Gentlemen:

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/242451240/al...g-speed-to-sox/

 

The two now rank as the club's two fastest players, according to the new Statcast™ sprint speed metric, which measures the players' top sprint speed on the basepaths in terms of feet per second. Each also ranks among the game's fastest players, with Engel tied for 12th in the metric at 29.2 ft./sec and Hanson tied for 21st at 28.8 ft./sec.

Perfect. 12th isn't enough for me to call someone an 80. That is a generational tool. If anyone in baseball today is an 80, it is Billy Hamilton.

[Lillian]

I don't recall FS ever giving him an 80 grade. Link?

 

No, it was MLB Pipeline that graded his speed 80. Future Sox does not normally publish grades, but again, here is what they say:

"Engel has true plus-plus speed".

[Lillian]

OK, so putting aside the "grade," can we agree that Engel has tremendous speed, better than Hanson and perhaps best on the Sox?

[OmarComing25]

I'd actually probably put Hamilton at 90 grade speed, he's just that fast.

[southsider2k5]

OK, so putting aside the "grade," can we agree that Engel has tremendous speed, better than Hanson and perhaps best on the Sox?

 

The argument was never that Engel wasn't fast. But that is different than top of the scale speed.

[bmags]

My biggest gripe with MLB pipeline is it's massive grade inflation.

[BlackSox13]

So, pipeline grades Engel and Buxton an 80 for speed. Buxton covers a better defender, is faster on the bases and steals far more bases than Engel. Engel is certainly not an 80 grade for speed.

 

Love watching him play CF though. He's a blast to watch.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Looks like Engel's latest bat position experiment is over. Tonight he went back to holding the bat up higher again. 1-3 HR and no K's. Progress ?

[Two-Gun Pete]

However, it is not necessary to stretch the imagination, in order to see Engel's realistic potential. He is really only lacking in one critical skill; he does not make consistent contact.

 

He has power and elite speed and athleticism, do go along with his stellar defense, but obviously he has got to figure out how to become a productive, or at least acceptable hitter.

 

 

You can't teach speed, athleticism or power, but you can teach hitting.

Everything you just wrote here was said about Brian Anderson. And Jordan Danks. And others. (DeWayne Wise, perhaps as well?) How did that work out for them?

 

Engel is a fine defender. But if he can't hit, he shouldnt be a starter. If any fandom has seen the "good glove/s***ty hitting" CFer fail, it should be this one. Whether we like it or not, Engel could be a decent 4th or 5th OFer on a good team. But that's about it for "the possibilities" for a guy who can't hit.

 

Also, after a few years of MiLB, a hitter is largely what he's going to be. Engel can't be "taught" how to hit any more than Brian Anderson, or Danks, or any of the other "toolsy" types that KW craved for this org. Engel can work "on the margins" of his ability, but I doubt he'll amount to much of anything at the plate.

[Balta1701]

Everything you just wrote here was said about Brian Anderson. And Jordan Danks. And others. (DeWayne Wise, perhaps as well?) How did that work out for them?

 

Engel is a fine defender. But if he can't hit, he shouldnt be a starter. If any fandom has seen the "good glove/s***ty hitting" CFer fail, it should be this one. Whether we like it or not, Engel could be a decent 4th or 5th OFer on a good team. But that's about it for "the possibilities" for a guy who can't hit.

 

Also, after a few years of MiLB, a hitter is largely what he's going to be. Engel can't be "taught" how to hit any more than Brian Anderson, or Danks, or any of the other "toolsy" types that KW craved for this org. Engel can work "on the margins" of his ability, but I doubt he'll amount to much of anything at the plate.

"These toolsy athletes who could play defense did not develop into good hitters, ergo no toolsy athletes will develop into hitters" still remains weak logic.

 

The fact that those guys did not develop should show you that these guys developing isn't likely, but it doesn't mean it never happens. I bet you that around baseball there are actually guys that did, and you know what it probably required? Playing time. The good news is...if he doesn't develop it doesn't hurt us to replace him, and if he does need playing time to improve - we have that to offer with no consequences for the next year!

[Two-Gun Pete]

"These toolsy athletes who could play defense did not develop into good hitters, ergo no toolsy athletes will develop into hitters" still remains weak logic.

At the same time, players with mediocre MiLB track records generally don't go on to be productive MLB hitters. And it is beggars belief to hope otherwise.

 

The hardest skill to acquire (wihin the limits of a player's natural ability) is to hit MLB pitching. Engel wasn't even above-average for the majority of his time in the minors. And others who came before him that were mediocre in MiLB were similarly unable to improve. Why would Engel be any different?

 

I'll leave it at this: Even though the 2018 team doesn't figure to be competitive, the best player should still play over lesser ones. I'm simply not convinced that Engel is the best option, based on the entirety of his track record, & his abject lack of hitting ability @ the MLB level.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dick Allen]

At the same time, players with mediocre MiLB track records generally don't go on to be productive MLB hitters. And it is beggars belief to hope otherwise.

 

The hardest skill to acquire (wihin the limits of a player's natural ability) is to hit MLB pitching. Engel wasn't even above-average for the majority of his time in the minors. And others who came before him that were mediocre in MiLB were similarly unable to improve. Why would Engel be any different?

 

I'll leave it at this: Even though the 2018 team doesn't figure to be competitive, the best player should still play over lesser ones. I'm simply not convinced that Engel is the best option, based on the entirety of his track record, & his abject lack of hitting ability @ the MLB level.

Unless they get someone who is projectionable and can play CF in the major leagues next year, get ready to see a lot of Engel in 2018. They love him. The front office knows he is going to have to hit, but look like they are willing to exhaust every chance before they give up. Renteria loves him so much, he wants him to play if he can't hit. Maybe he could have him bunt 600 times a year.

[southsider2k5]

Unless they get someone who is projectionable and can play CF in the major leagues next year, get ready to see a lot of Engel in 2018. They love him. The front office knows he is going to have to hit, but look like they are willing to exhaust every chance before they give up. Renteria loves him so much, he wants him to play if he can't hit. Maybe he could have him bunt 600 times a year.

 

If we have the choice between someone who can't hit, but plays gold glove defense versus someone who can hit, but hurts his pitching staff in CF, give me Engel everytime. With an already bad defense and a young pitching staff, I don't want to make it harder on them than I have to. Engel is a young pitchers best friend in CF the way he turns doubles in the gap into loud outs.

[Thad Bosley]

Trading Melky created an opening in left that Leury slid over from center to fill. But with the emergence of Delmonico, doesn't Leury then slide right back over to center, given that his overall game is better than Engel's? Leury is no slouch defensively, but I think he proved this year that he has a MLB-caliber bat, and therefore I think he's the better option to start next year in center over Engel, at least at this point.

[southsider2k5]

Trading Melky created an opening in left that Leury slid over from center to fill. But with the emergence of Delmonico, doesn't Leury then slide right back over to center, given that his overall game is better than Engel's? Leury is no slouch defensively, but I think he proved this year that he has a MLB-caliber bat, and therefore I think he's the better option to start next year in center over Engel, at least at this point.

 

Especially if Delmonico and Garcia are going to be the corner OF's I want as good of a defensive CF as possible in between them for the sake of the pitching staff.

[BlackSox13]

Trading Melky created an opening in left that Leury slid over from center to fill. But with the emergence of Delmonico, doesn't Leury then slide right back over to center, given that his overall game is better than Engel's? Leury is no slouch defensively, but I think he proved this year that he has a MLB-caliber bat, and therefore I think he's the better option to start next year in center over Engel, at least at this point.

At this point Engel can stay in CF. When Leury comes back he goes back to LF, Engel stays in CF, Avi in RF, Delmonico DH, Davidson/Sanchez 3B, TA at SS, Sanchez/Saladino at 2B until Moncada returns. And that, thankfully, puts Hanson on the bench. I have tried to sit down and drink enough beers during the game to make Hanson's defense look better but it just doesn't work. And no, the beer is not broken.

 

Sorry, Hanson is still on the mind from last night's game, ugh.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Especially if Delmonico and Garcia are going to be the corner OF's I want as good of a defensive CF as possible in between them for the sake of the pitching staff.

Um...which Garcia?

[Balta1701]

Trading Melky created an opening in left that Leury slid over from center to fill. But with the emergence of Delmonico, doesn't Leury then slide right back over to center, given that his overall game is better than Engel's? Leury is no slouch defensively, but I think he proved this year that he has a MLB-caliber bat, and therefore I think he's the better option to start next year in center over Engel, at least at this point.

At this point...play em all and let 2018 sort em out.