Just for fun...what if

[Quin]

I'd argue that the return for Sale would've been much higher

 

It's kind of hard to top the #1 hitting and #1 pitching prospect. Unless you're saying the Basabe / Diaz components would be better

[jenksycat]

But if we hadn't gone for it in 2015 I don't think we trade those three, we still would probably be looking to build around them.

 

With what though? The only reason we have anything to build with now is because we traded them.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Jenksy Cat

[OmarComing25]

With what though? The only reason we have anything to build with now is because we traded them.

I'm not saying it would have worked differently but we had just signed Quintana and Eaton to extensions and they hadn't really established themselves as much yet, why would we have traded them? And I don't really see us trading Sale at that point either. I also agree with you that Sale would not have gotten that much more either, there were still a lot of GMs probably worried that his arm was going to explode at any second. A couple more healthy seasons probably quelled a lot of those fears. It is interesting to think about where the roster would be at this point, though the only player we traded that I would have any interest in getting back is Semien (EDIT: I forgot about He Who Must Not Be Named), and even then he's looking like just a league average player. But a rebuild that started in 2013 would probably be expecting to compete around now or next season.

Edited September 12, 2017 by OmarComing25

[Balta1701]

I'm not saying it would have worked differently but we had just signed Quintana and Eaton to extensions and they hadn't really established themselves as much yet, why would we have traded them? And I don't really see us trading Sale at that point either. I also agree with you that Sale would not have gotten that much more either, there were still a lot of GMs probably worried that his arm was going to explode at any second. A couple more healthy seasons probably quelled a lot of those fears. It is interesting to think about where the roster would be at this point, though the only player we traded that I would have any interest in getting back is Semien, and even then he's looking like just a league average player.

They were able to add solid chunks to a terrible team between 2013 and 2014 by looking more than a year ahead and targeting guys with that in mind. They had the same resource they used this year for Kahnle - playing time - that they could have used to develop guys or target undervalued guys in 2015 and 2016. Target guys who were blocked or whose teams had otherwise soured on them. How many guys have had breakout seasons this year after some playing time in recent seasons? That was the other stuff we gave away in addition to players - time and money.

[Balta1701]

Now that I think about it, one downside of any idea that we could have rebuilt in 16 and been ready this year is Cleveland. A far better built ballclub than we could have hoped to be, we'd have been in that wildcard pileup at best compared to them. We'd have been pounded by better royals team in 2015 or better Cleveland team in 16-18.

 

Come back with the best team in baseball in 2020 and make this not a concern.

[bmags]

One thing for clarity:

- I'm thrilled we sold when we did.- The benefit to selling when we did was getting the top farm pieces from the loaded systems of playoff contenders that had excess pieces to trade. The systems of the cubs/nats/red sox have been largely raided by the white sox and padres. It took those aggressive teams out of the bidding wars for the top available players, and the loaded, top teams left are Astros and Dodgers who have less inclination to remove them. I am 100% convinced if we waited we'd have a worse group of farm systems to trade with unless ATL and MIL get a whole lot better quick.

- That said, I think it's reasonable we are in playoff hunt with roster brought back. The funny thing is the convincing argument is if we brought back AJAX and Avila, and did not cut Avi. But I swear what would have happened is we cut Avi, we sign a worse CF and ride our C situation. Maybe we trade for LuCroy, I don't know. It wouldn't matter that much.

[Dam8610]

Now that I think about it, one downside of any idea that we could have rebuilt in 16 and been ready this year is Cleveland. A far better built ballclub than we could have hoped to be, we'd have been in that wildcard pileup at best compared to them. We'd have been pounded by better royals team in 2015 or better Cleveland team in 16-18.

 

Come back with the best team in baseball in 2020 and make this not a concern.

 

Who do you have the White Sox signing: Harper, Machado, Arenado, or some combination thereof?

[Jose Abreu]

It's kind of hard to top the #1 hitting and #1 pitching prospect. Unless you're saying the Basabe / Diaz components would be better

That is what I'm saying. Had this trade occurred with 2 extra years of a cheap Chris Sale, the 3rd piece would've been much better IMO. Another top 100 guy.

[jenksycat]

That is what I'm saying. Had this trade occurred with 2 extra years of a cheap Chris Sale, the 3rd piece would've been much better IMO. Another top 100 guy.

 

I disagree. 2 extra years of Sale proving his dominance/health isn't worth much less than 2 years of control. The Sale trade that actually went down doesn't happen that much cause teams are not gutting entire systems for 1 single player.

[Jose Abreu]

I disagree. 2 extra years of Sale proving his dominance/health isn't worth much less than 2 years of control. The Sale trade that actually went down doesn't happen that much cause teams are not gutting entire systems for 1 single player.

I don't think he had anything to prove. By the start of 2015, he was the same caliber of pitcher he was when we traded him, with the same relatively clean bill of health.

[OmarComing25]

That is what I'm saying. Had this trade occurred with 2 extra years of a cheap Chris Sale, the 3rd piece would've been much better IMO. Another top 100 guy.

Who would have given us that package though? Looking back, the top farm systems at the end of 2014 were the Cubs, Twins, Astros, Red Sox, Rangers, Pirates and Dodgers.

 

A pre-title Cubs would not be a trade partner, the Twins aren't happening, and I don't think the Pirates pull the trigger either on a Glasnow (#12)/Meadows (#30) led package. If they wouldn't this past offseason I don't think they do it in 2015 either. The Dodgers with Kershaw and Greinke are not going to be willing to part with some combination of Urias (#3)/Seager (#6)/Pederson (#11). The Red Sox were clearly intending to compete with the signings of Sandoval and Ramirez, but going by Fangraphs rankings of prospects in February 2015, their top prospects at the time were Swihart (#9), Rodriguez (#23), Owens (#33), Margot (#35) and Devers (#48). Even if we somehow got Devers as the third piece instead of the next prospect (Brian Williams at #104), is Swihart/one of Rodriguez or Owens/Devers better than what we got?

 

Rangers had Gallo (#16), Alex Gonzalez (#27), Jake Thompson (#29), Mazara (#46), and Alfaro (#53). Would Gallo/one of Gonzalez or Thompson/one of Mazara and Alfaro be better? And that's probably unrealistic.

 

Unless the Astros were willing to give up Correa (#5) they wouldn't beat what we got, and Appel (#18) would have been the second piece. Coming off a 92 loss season there's no way they do it.

 

The only other team I could see being in the picture is Toronto with Norris (#17), Hoffman (#67), Sanchez (#70), Pompey (#80) and Pentecost (#93) but we'd want at least two top 50 guys and they didn't have the elite positional prospect we'd want.

 

I'm not seeing a realistic package that would be better than what we got.

Edited September 12, 2017 by OmarComing25

[Jose Abreu]

Who would have given us that package though? Looking back, the top farm systems at the end of 2014 were the Cubs, Twins, Astros, Red Sox, Rangers, Pirates and Dodgers.

 

A pre-title Cubs would not be a trade partner, the Twins aren't happening, and I don't think the Pirates pull the trigger either on a Glasnow (#12)/Meadows (#30) led package. If they wouldn't this past offseason I don't think they do it in 2015 either. The Dodgers with Kershaw and Greinke are not going to be willing to part with some combination of Urias (#3)/Seager (#6)/Pederson (#11). The Red Sox were clearly intending to compete with the signings of Sandoval and Ramirez, but going by Fangraphs rankings of prospects in February 2015, their top prospects at the time were Swihart (#9), Rodriguez (#23), Owens (#33), Margot (#35) and Devers (#48). Even if we somehow got Devers as the third piece instead of the next prospect (Brian Williams at #104), is Swihart/one of Rodriguez or Owens/Devers better than what we got?

 

Rangers had Gallo (#16), Alex Gonzalez (#27), Jake Thompson (#29), Mazara (#46), and Alfaro (#53). Would Gallo/one of Gonzalez or Thompson/one of Mazara and Alfaro be better? And that's probably unrealistic.

 

Unless the Astros were willing to give up Correa (#5) they wouldn't beat what we got, and Appel (#18) would have been the second piece. Coming off a 92 loss season there's no way they do it.

 

The only other team I could see being in the picture is Toronto with Norris (#17), Hoffman (#67), Sanchez (#70), Pompey (#80) and Pentecost (#93) but we'd want at least two top 50 guys and they didn't have the elite positional prospect we'd want.

 

I'm not seeing a realistic package that would be better than what we got.

Trading Sale at that time would've been a bad idea for many reasons, so I guess this is just another one. I maintain that his trade value would've been higher, but I suppose he may not have fetched a better package regardless.