Gun Violence in America

[caulfield12]

Haha...who is “persecuted” more than Greg in Filibuster?

I’ll give everyone one guess.  It’s part of the game to see if we can rally anyone/everyone to our cause...to consolidate our base, especially when we’re (seemingly) outnumbered 10 to 1.

Of course, the truth is that a lot of people who voted for Trump don’t want to admit it publicly or defend him here, but there’s definitely a missing 3-5 Trump supporters (or at least sympathizers) for every 5-6 “liberal” voices at SoxTalk.

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I am not a part of this conversation. 

Yeah Caulfield that was totally unnecessary trolling. 

[Jack Parkman]

39 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The problem is, when you state facts, it's considered fake news if it isn't praising Trump. The facts are, he lies a lot. Once you are caught lying, not just once, but hundreds and thousands of times over, what you say isn't taken as truth. That's true if you are in politics or an 8 year old kid. Trump invents wars with people, getting them to what his supporters would call ganging up, and it works. When people here gang up on Greg, it doesn't work to his advantage like Trump. 

Facts and truth don't matter anymore. People will hear what they want to hear.

And this is the problem people. It takes an incredible amount of effort to decipher the bullshit in the media and put on your critical thinking hat. Time and energy that most people don't have. I know the difference between propaganda and facts, but most people don't have the amount of time I do to go through everything. I consume media, and form my own conclusions. I'm open to things I don't want to hear if it is based on concrete evidence, The issue is that most evidence to anything presented right now is circumstantial at best, and downright false and misleading at worst. True investigative journalism is dead, and that is a massive issue. 

[BigHurt3515]

45 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The problem is, when you state facts, it's considered fake news if it isn't praising Trump. The facts are, he lies a lot. Once you are caught lying, not just once, but hundreds and thousands of times over, what you say isn't taken as truth. That's true if you are in politics or an 8 year old kid. Trump invents wars with people, getting them to what his supporters would call ganging up, and it works. When people here gang up on Greg, it doesn't work to his advantage like Trump. 

Facts and truth don't matter anymore. People will hear what they want to hear.

It goes both ways. If people state facts that praise Trump or back him up it is considered fake or they are horrible people.

There is always more to the story than what is presented from both the media and Trump, someone is almost always hiding something to get their agenda across.

Edited June 29, 2018 by BigHurt3515

[Jenksismyhero]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Haha...who is “persecuted” more than Greg in Filibuster?

I’ll give everyone one guess.  It’s part of the game to see if we can rally anyone/everyone to our cause...to consolidate our base, especially when we’re (seemingly) outnumbered 10 to 1.

Of course, the truth is that a lot of people who voted for Trump don’t want to admit it publicly or defend him here, but there’s definitely a missing 3-5 Trump supporters (or at least sympathizers) for every 5-6 “liberal” voices at SoxTalk.

I doubt there are many Trump "supporters." I think there are several conservatives on the board who don't agree with Trump (vehemently so) but nevertheless don't buy into the bullshit "if you don't agree with liberal-think you're a bigot/racist/fascist Trump Nazi." Myself included. And it's just not worth the effort of contributing anything to the board when you're immediately held responsible for mass shootings because you believe in gun rights and/or that you apparently support family separation policies because you believe that sensible immigration laws/enforcement is necessary. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, BigHurt3515 said:

It goes both ways. If people state facts that praise Trump or back him up it is considered fake or they are horrible people.

There is always more to the story than what is presented from both the media and Trump, someone is almost always hiding something to get their POV across.

Despite the fact that I think that Trump is a scumbag to the nth degree, a downright despicable human being and a compulsive liar, If he does something positive I would give him credit for it (it hasn't happened yet and I'm not holding my breath) I agree with him in principle about protecting US jobs and keeping them here, but I disagree with the way he's going about it. 

[Jack Parkman]

19 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I doubt there are many Trump "supporters." I think there are several conservatives on the board who don't agree with Trump (vehemently so) but nevertheless don't buy into the bullshit "if you don't agree with liberal-think you're a bigot/racist/fascist Trump Nazi." Myself included. And it's just not worth the effort of contributing anything to the board when you're immediately held responsible for mass shootings because you believe in gun rights and/or that you apparently support family separation policies because you believe that sensible immigration laws/enforcement is necessary. 

Jenks, you have the right to your opinion, and there used to be a place for a conservative party in the USA but the Republicans have gone full Nazi in my opinion. Having a sensible conservative party is part of a healthy democracy, IMO. There has to be checks and balances on everything. They should just be represented in congress proportionally to the percentage of the population that would actually benefit from their policies.  When the Republican party got hijacked during the Nixon administration by the radical right, it ceased to be a sensible conservative party anymore. If our definitions of "liberal" were those ideas of FDR and "conservative" were those of Eisenhower, I'd probably consider myself an independent but because our definition of "conservative" is Trump, and our definition of "Liberal" is Hillary Clinton(who is basically an Eisenhower Republican), the whackjobs have shifted this country so far to the right that it is incredibly frustrating to have any sort of rational conversation with people.  can't even have a positive conversation, nor find common ground with conservatives anymore which is scary when you have some views that skew that way yourself. For example, I am a pretty big proponent of responsible gun ownership, but I do agree that we're way too lax with gun laws. There has to be some happy medium. I generally agree that unions are a good thing, and that most people should have one, but I also agree that in some cases they've gone too far toward messing with productivity and ability to launch a poor worker. 

Most of the ideas that mainstream conservatives spout today are not actually rational conservative ideas, but those of the radical right. I could live with a conservatively ideological party if it actually had the best interest of their constituency in mind, rather than those of oligarchs and racists. There are real conservative policies that are in the best interest of business and their constituents, but people don't realize what that is. 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[BigSqwert]

50 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

I didn't read it, I saw Shaun King and stopped, his words can't be trusted as he has proven over time.

I find it hard to believe you didn't even accidentally skim at least one line. It's not like I pasted a wall of text.  Whatever you think of the source, what was posted is indisputable fact.

[BigHurt3515]

21 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Despite the fact that I think that Trump is a scumbag to the nth degree, a downright despicable human being and a compulsive liar, If he does something positive I would give him credit for it (it hasn't happened yet and I'm not holding my breath) I agree with him in principle about protecting US jobs and keeping them here, but I disagree with the way he's going about it. 

He has done positive things for some people but that also hurts others but that happens with every President. Just because it isn't positive for you doesn't mean it isn't positive for other people.

Nobody will ever satisfy everyone, can't happen.

[GoSox05]

21 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I doubt there are many Trump "supporters." I think there are several conservatives on the board who don't agree with Trump (vehemently so) but nevertheless don't buy into the bullshit "if you don't agree with liberal-think you're a bigot/racist/fascist Trump Nazi." Myself included. And it's just not worth the effort of contributing anything to the board when you're immediately held responsible for mass shootings because you believe in gun rights and/or that you apparently support family separation policies because you believe that sensible immigration laws/enforcement is necessary. 

I would say a large majority of Republicans/conservatives support Trumps policies.  They just don't like him because he is crude.

That's why he has almost a 90% approval rating from his party. 

 

[BigHurt3515]

23 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I doubt there are many Trump "supporters." I think there are several conservatives on the board who don't agree with Trump (vehemently so) but nevertheless don't buy into the bullshit "if you don't agree with liberal-think you're a bigot/racist/fascist Trump Nazi." Myself included. And it's just not worth the effort of contributing anything to the board when you're immediately held responsible for mass shootings because you believe in gun rights and/or that you apparently support family separation policies because you believe that sensible immigration laws/enforcement is necessary. 

It really sucks if you agree with some of his policies or what some of what he is saying and then you're called a horrible human or names you said. It isn't right and is part of the problem with all the hate in the world. People can have different views, doesn't mean they should be called names or denied food at a restaurant, it is pathetic.

I can want stronger immigration laws but that doesn't make me a horrible human. Honestly I don't really give a shit about politics but I do want what is best for our country and I don't want illegal people getting free passes. If you come in the right way I have no problems with you, I actually commend you.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

He has done positive things for some people but that also hurts others but that happens with every President. Just because it isn't positive for you doesn't mean it isn't positive for other people.

Nobody will ever satisfy everyone, can't happen.

I'm not arguing that he hasn't. I could see and even rationalize some of his policies if it actually helped a majority of Americans, even if it doesn't help me personally. Hell, I'd support those policies. IMO, if what is best for the country and what is best for me personally are opposed, I'd take the hit because I know it is the right course of action. Most people aren't that selfless. 

[Jack Parkman]

10 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

It really sucks if you agree with some of his policies or what some of what he is saying and then you're called a horrible human or names you said. It isn't right and is part of the problem with all the hate in the world. People can have different views, doesn't mean they should be called names or denied food at a restaurant, it is pathetic.

I can want stronger immigration laws but that doesn't make me a horrible human. Honestly I don't really give a shit about politics but I do want what is best for our country and I don't want illegal people getting free passes. If you come in the right way I have no problems with you, I actually commend you.

There is a very simple way to combat the illegal immigration problem, but most people don't want to hear it. Make it incredibly difficult for an undocumented immigrant to find a job or any source of income. I know there are fake SSA cards, and stuff like that that can temporarily get around it. 

Why do illegal immigrants come here? Why do employers hire them anyway? They come here for a better life. Employers hire them anyway because they can exploit their labor for cheap(in some cases giving them less than minimum wage because they have no legal recourse) You stop illegal immigration very easily, You fine the ever loving shit out of companies that hire them. If a company has illegal immigrants, they get fined their entire profit margin from the quarter in which they were found hiring illegals. No Jobs, no hope of a better life, no reason to come here. I also have zero problems with launching people who come here illegally and use government benefits to support themselves. Nope, can't happen. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

It really sucks if you agree with some of his policies or what some of what he is saying and then you're called a horrible human or names you said. It isn't right and is part of the problem with all the hate in the world. People can have different views, doesn't mean they should be called names or denied food at a restaurant, it is pathetic.

I can want stronger immigration laws but that doesn't make me a horrible human. Honestly I don't really give a shit about politics but I do want what is best for our country and I don't want illegal people getting free passes. If you come in the right way I have no problems with you, I actually commend you.

Basically the entire GOP electoral strategy has been to tie every Dem to Pelosi, Schumer and now Waters.

 

I get the tax cut windfall, cutting regulations...but the “old” GOP at least cared somewhat about the environment (conservative/conserve/conservation.)  Strong defense...but also a faithful member of NATO and supporter of a neoliberal global world order since WW2 (Mattis/Powell.)

The tariffs so far have been a complete debacle.  90% of the Caucus disagrees with them.  What happened to free trade?

The social issues/identity politics have always been there.

Where I disagree strongly is on health care and policies that exacerbate income inequality for the poor and lower middle class...like all the proposed Ryan cuts to social programs, education, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security will have to be cut at least 15% beginning in 2025, etc.

[Jenksismyhero]

26 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Jenks, you have the right to your opinion, and there used to be a place for a conservative party in the USA but the Republicans have gone full Nazi in my opinion. Having a sensible conservative party is part of a healthy democracy, IMO. There has to be checks and balances on everything. They should just be represented in congress proportionally to the percentage of the population that would actually benefit from their policies.  When the Republican party got hijacked during the Nixon administration by the radical right, it ceased to be a sensible conservative party anymore. If our definitions of "liberal" were those ideas of FDR and "conservative" were those of Eisenhower, I'd probably consider myself an independent but because our definition of "conservative" is Trump, and our definition of "Liberal" is Hillary Clinton(who is basically an Eisenhower Republican), the whackjobs have shifted this country so far to the right that it is incredibly frustrating to have any sort of rational conversation with people.  can't even have a positive conversation, nor find common ground with conservatives anymore which is scary when you have some views that skew that way yourself. For example, I am a pretty big proponent of responsible gun ownership, but I do agree that we're way too lax with gun laws. There has to be some happy medium. I generally agree that unions are a good thing, and that most people should have one, but I also agree that in some cases they've gone too far toward messing with productivity and ability to launch a poor worker. 

Most of the ideas that mainstream conservatives spout today are not actually rational conservative ideas, but those of the radical right. I could live with a conservatively ideological party if it actually had the best interest of their constituency in mind, rather than those of oligarchs and racists. There are real conservative policies that are in the best interest of business and their constituents, but people don't realize what that is. 

 

I don't think the current GOP was nearly as radical even 5 years ago as it is today, but I also don't think that has anything to do with actual policy and more to do with this growing trend from both parties that regardless of the policy, if you're not with us you're against us. It's our side versus your side. "My" guy is in the white house, so regardless of what he does/doesn't do he's right and you're wrong. 

It's rather pathetic and sad and it's why our system sucks.

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There is a very simple way to combat the illegal immigration problem, but most people don't want to hear it. Make it incredibly difficult for an undocumented immigrant to find a job or any source of income. I know there are fake SSA cards, and stuff like that that can temporarily get around it. 

Why do illegal immigrants come here? Why do employers hire them anyway? They come here for a better life. Employers hire them anyway because they can exploit their labor for cheap(in some cases giving them less than minimum wage because they have no legal recourse) You stop illegal immigration very easily, You fine the ever loving shit out of companies that hire them. If a company has illegal immigrants, they get fined their entire profit margin from the quarter in which they were found hiring illegals. No Jobs, no hope of a better life, no reason to come here. I also have zero problems with launching people who come here illegally and use government benefits to support themselves. Nope, can't happen. 

Unauthorized immigrants are more likely than U.S.-born workers to be employed in industries that offer low-skilled jobs, due in part to their relatively low education levels and to limits of their status. Of all unauthorized immigrant workers, 22% are in professional, business and other services, which encompasses a wide range of businesses from legal services and advertising, to employment services, landscaping and waste management, to personal services such as dry cleaning, nail salons, car washes and religious organizations.3 Some 18% are in the leisure and hospitality sector, and 16% are in the construction industry. More than half (55%) of unauthorized immigrant workers are employed in these three sectors, compared with only 31% of U.S.-born workers.

Although only 5% of unauthorized immigrant workers are employed in agriculture, that is more than double the share of U.S.-born workers (2%) who are. The 13% of unauthorized immigrant workers employed in the manufacturing industry compares with 10% of U.S.-born workers employed there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/03/27/where-americas-undocumented-immigrants-work/?noredirect=on

[BigHurt3515]

32 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There is a very simple way to combat the illegal immigration problem, but most people don't want to hear it. Make it incredibly difficult for an undocumented immigrant to find a job or any source of income. I know there are fake SSA cards, and stuff like that that can temporarily get around it. 

Why do illegal immigrants come here? Why do employers hire them anyway? They come here for a better life. Employers hire them anyway because they can exploit their labor for cheap(in some cases giving them less than minimum wage because they have no legal recourse) You stop illegal immigration very easily, You fine the ever loving shit out of companies that hire them. If a company has illegal immigrants, they get fined their entire profit margin from the quarter in which they were found hiring illegals. No Jobs, no hope of a better life, no reason to come here. I also have zero problems with launching people who come here illegally and use government benefits to support themselves. Nope, can't happen. 

There are plenty of jobs out there that pay under the table or in cash. I'm not sure that will cut out everything but might help a bit. I am not even sure how an undocumented immigrant is able to get a job that you actually have to go through the correct hiring process.

Then you have the ones who come here and do illegal shit for money. Can't stop that

Edited June 29, 2018 by BigHurt3515

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I don't think the current GOP was nearly as radical even 5 years ago as it is today, but I also don't think that has anything to do with actual policy and more to do with this growing trend from both parties that regardless of the policy, if you're not with us you're against us. It's our side versus your side. "My" guy is in the white house, so regardless of what he does/doesn't do he's right and you're wrong. 

It's rather pathetic and sad and it's why our system sucks.

If not for blocking Merrick Garland in an unprecedented way...the SCOTUS deciding the 2000 election for GW Bush and then Trump losing by 2.8 million and those 77,000 votes in three Midwest states, we could have some balance.  Heck, Comey not inserting himself into the election on either side arguably gives it to HRC, and Dems at least have a 5-4 SCOTUS, if not 6-3 (Kennedy might have tried to hang on until 2020, when HRC would have lost due to a recession.)

Now, with a 6-3 SC advantage, both houses of Congress, the majority of state houses and governorships...and especially Trump himself, the pendulum has to shift back.

Edited June 29, 2018 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Just now, raBBit said:

You realize there is such a push for immigration because the corporations benefit from illegals coming here right? 

And corporations are forevermore going to take priority over the American people, thanks to the SC, well, let’s just say for the next 25-30 years at least.

[Timmy U]

The immigration issue is going to be a continuing problem because of the country’s declining birth rate.  Without substantial immigration, U.S. economy is going to stagnate/decline.  We have easily absorbed millions of immigrants for just that reason.  There are people in business who argue that the U.S. is underpopulated to compete with the E.U. and China; that the population should be much closer to 400 million.  Now, it would be easy to attract that many people by simultaneously opening up our legal immigration channels to somewhat match demand while making it tougher for illegal immigrants to find work.

Unfortunately, that would be extremely unpopular with roughly 25% of the population.  These people, mostly rural folks, want to restrict even legal immigration, mostly for cultural reasons.  They’d prefer we attract Trump’s mythical Norwegians.  But because our system isn’t particularly democratic, they wield outsize power, especially when it comes to immigration policy.

So what we have done is to create a black market in immigration and now we’ve launched the equivalent of prohibition or the War on Drugs on immigrants.  I believe it’s not going to work in a million years and is going to get waaay uglier than it is now.  

[Jack Parkman]

13 minutes ago, raBBit said:

You realize there is such a push for immigration because the corporations benefit from illegals coming here right? 

Of course I do. Why would I suggest that course of action if I didn't understand that?  My mom is an immigrant, Most of my extended family are as well. I think that DACA is the right thing to do though. These people didn't choose to come here, they were kids, dragged here by their parents. They should not be held responsible for a migration decision that wasn't theirs to make. They have known no other home than the USA. Those people should be given amnesty. This hits close to home because my best friend in college would have qualified for this program but it didn't exist at the time. He came here as an infant and didn't know that he was not a US citizen When he was 18, he registered to vote, not knowing he wasn't a US citizen.  He found out about a year later. It caught up to him right as we were about to graduate, he was then deported, and given a permawhack. I thought the whole thing was unfair and unjust. There is no way in hell he knew what he was doing. He didn't choose to come here, and yet he was launched to a place he never knew as home. The dude barely spoke Spanish. 

There is also the practicality of border security given how huge the US-Mexico border is. It really is not economically feasible to do anything but find people through their own stupidity or ignorance and deport them when they are found. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

The immigration issue is going to be a continuing problem because of the country’s declining birth rate.  Without substantial immigration, U.S. economy is going to stagnate/decline.  We have easily absorbed millions of immigrants for just that reason.  There are people in business who argue that the U.S. is underpopulated to compete with the E.U. and China; that the population should be much closer to 400 million.  Now, it would be easy to attract that many people by simultaneously opening up our legal immigration channels to somewhat match demand while making it tougher for illegal immigrants to find work.

Unfortunately, that would be extremely unpopular with roughly 25% of the population.  These people, mostly rural folks, want to restrict even legal immigration, mostly for cultural reasons.  They’d prefer we attract Trump’s mythical Norwegians.  But because our system isn’t particularly democratic, they wield outsize power, especially when it comes to immigration policy.

So what we have done is to create a black market in immigration and now we’ve launched the equivalent of prohibition or the War on Drugs on immigrants.  I believe it’s not going to work in a million years and is going to get waaay uglier than it is now.  

Basically, the Electoral College, gerrymandering/restricted voting rights and now the SC are the three pivotal forces keeping “1950’s Leave It To Beaver” version of America from being completely overrun/overwhelmed.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

There's a f***ing mass shooting 1.25x a day in this country of course there was going to be one after that, there probably have been 8.

 And Puerto Rico just spat in your face for thinking that you treated them nicely while they were literally watching people die. You couldn't possibly have cared less. It's even been pointed out to you before that you didn't care one iota about Puerto Rico and you glossed over it. 

I care about Puerto Rico. I care about anybody suffering whether you believe it or not. There's this perception Greg needs to post on every topic equally. I still am hesitant to start threads cause people get mad and say it should not be a new thread. I had buddies drive boats down to Houston when the hurricane flooded all the streets and supported them. I care about the suffering of families at the border. I care about the people of Puerto Rico. I can't imagine being without power for so long and water. I don't know how to answer the charge of "glossing over" Puerto Rico. I think it's impossible to post equally on all topics that happen. 

I'm also depressed over the fires when they hit and the volcanic lava ruining homes and endangering lives in Hawaii. If you pay me a salary I'll sit here and comment equally on everything that happens in the US and all over the world.

[Jack Parkman]

34 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I don't think the current GOP was nearly as radical even 5 years ago as it is today, but I also don't think that has anything to do with actual policy and more to do with this growing trend from both parties that regardless of the policy, if you're not with us you're against us. It's our side versus your side. "My" guy is in the white house, so regardless of what he does/doesn't do he's right and you're wrong. 

It's rather pathetic and sad and it's why our system sucks.

I disagree, it got significantly worse when the racists and bigots came out of the woodwork when to their horror a person of color was elected president. But really, it was the Nixon administration that was patient zero for the radical right virus that infects this country now.(I'm looking at you Kissinger) It should have been quarantined in the 1970s, as it spawned Ronald Reagan, who was the  was the catalyst for it. Read about Paul Manafort's "Southern Strategy" in the 1980 election. That election was won on racism and bigotry based on so called Christian Values. Also, a lot of the illegal immigration issues we're facing now comes from the destabilization of Latin America due to the foreign policy decisions of one Henry Kissinger during the Nixon/Ford administrations. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Iwritecode]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Why do illegal immigrants come here? Why do employers hire them anyway? 

Because the employers can't get US citizens to even apply for the jobs they are offering much less work them.