StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 It's also a good example of a failure to consider other consequences. Sure, *maybe* arming every teacher actually would prevent or lessen mass school shootings. But there's zero consideration of what other effects it could have, either through increased non-mass-shooting gun violence in multiple ways or socially, in turning every school into an armed compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 08:18 AM) I don't think I would want my kid at a school with all those guns around anyway. There is a pretty good chance there will be a slip up and they will wind up in the wrong hands. Throwing 30 or 40 guns into a school with fairly unqualified, underpaid, and overstressed teacher-soldiers manning their posts. What could go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Cool, youtube's algorithms are easily exploited to the point that a video suggestion shooting survivor David Hogg is a paid actor is now the #1 trending video https://twitter.com/maxwellstrachan/status/...322425662246913 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The same post about that kid has been copied over and over, unfortunately for the trolls, the yearbook picture they are using CLEARLY shows that its from the actual yearbook from this school instead of this "2015 california" story they are pushing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (Tony @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 08:59 AM) Arming every teacher in America is just as crazy of a proposal as taking away everyones guns. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that public sector “liberal teachers’ unions” and the NRA go together about as well as Fergie and jazzified versions of the National Anthem...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 "Here's a brand new Glock and a set of textbooks from 1997!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 09:11 AM) The same post about that kid has been copied over and over, unfortunately for the trolls, the yearbook picture they are using CLEARLY shows that its from the actual yearbook from this school instead of this "2015 california" story they are pushing Almost all of the top youtube results for "David Hogg" right now are conspiracy nonsense. Social media is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The House Freedom Caucus is refusing to support any background checks bill unless it also includes concealed carry reciprocity, which would force states to accept concealed carry licenses from other states. https://twitter.com/rachaelmbade/status/966370071474995206 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Radley Balko @radleybalko 1m There's little data to suggest putting cops in schools has made the students at those schools safer. The students *are*, however, more likely to be Tased, beaten, body-slammed, and arrested for misbehavior that previously resulted in detention or suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Not sure who that guy is, but statements like that dont help the discussion. Security guards/police etc exceeding their authority has very little relevance to this issue. Not to mention whoever that guy is, provides no data to support his premise (doubtful that any such data is even possible to exist.) Its fine to express your opinion, but I just dont like when people try and pass their opinion off as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) He's a libertarian researcher/writer on criminal justice and civil liberties for WaPo and I think CATO? He does good, detailed work and I'm sure he has data to back up his claims there. I think it's really important that people consider secondary effects of proposals like "put more armed cops/ex-vets in schools!" Maybe that makes mass shootings less likely, but what other potential effects does it have? What impact SRO's have is directly relevant to how good of an idea "more cops and guns in schools" is. It's similar to the "well I need a gun and an ability to carry a gun to protect myself in public from all of the potential guns!" Zero consideration that, maybe, if guns were's so readily available you wouldn't feel the need to carry a deadly weapon on yourself for protection all the time. Edited February 21, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 01:24 PM) He's a libertarian researcher/writer on criminal justice and civil liberties for WaPo and I think CATO? He does good, detailed work and I'm sure he has data to back up his claims there. I think it's really important that people consider secondary effects of proposals like "put more armed cops/ex-vets in schools!" Maybe that makes mass shootings less likely, but what other potential effects does it have? What impact SRO's have is directly relevant to how good of an idea "more cops and guns in schools" is. It's similar to the "well I need a gun and an ability to carry a gun to protect myself in public from all of the potential guns!" Zero consideration that, maybe, if guns were's so readily available you wouldn't feel the need to carry a deadly weapon on yourself for protection all the time. If he has data then he should cite it and post it so that people can review it. Otherwise its opinion. And I have no problem with people saying "In my opinion" and discussing ideas. I dont necessarily think armed guards/police will make a huge difference, but Im also not going to start the discussion by alleging a litany of bad things happen without providing any evidence to support it. If I call people out on these boards for that, then I would expect someone who is a "researcher/writer" to be held to a higher standard than "random message board poster." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Just because you don't have a citation to data on hand doesn't mean it's just an opinion, come on. That doesn't even make sense. It's a claim, and maybe you want to see the data to support a claim and that's fine, but that doesn't make it "opinion." It's either true or not. There's plenty of research on the "school-to-prison pipeline" if you want to dig into it, and expecting that every tweet someone makes has full academic citations is just silly. Anyway, the point still stands that "what affects does putting police in schools have?" is still directly relevant to the idea that we should put more police in schools. edit: he had a follow up tweet with a bunch of links anyway https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/966394232578723842 Edited February 21, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 01:38 PM) Just because you don't have a citation to data on hand doesn't mean it's just an opinion, come on. That doesn't even make sense. It's a claim, and maybe you want to see the data to support a claim and that's fine, but that doesn't make it "opinion." It's either true or not. There's plenty of research on the "school-to-prison pipeline" if you want to dig into it, and expecting that every tweet someone makes has full academic citations is just silly. Anyway, the point still stands that "what affects does putting police in schools have?" is still directly relevant to the idea that we should put more police in schools. You can twist it however you like, but if you dont present the evidence to support your claim, how can I verify that the data exists? Where did I ask for "full academic citations?" If youre going to post something as fact, then at minimum you could say "based on research by" or "in a study done by" so that I could at least attempt to find the data. What you posted provides no way of verifying the claim. My guess is that its because its opinion. I mean what research do you think includes whether students were more likely to be "body slammed" before or after a security guard was hired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 01:17 PM) Not sure who that guy is, but statements like that dont help the discussion. Security guards/police etc exceeding their authority has very little relevance to this issue. Not to mention whoever that guy is, provides no data to support his premise (doubtful that any such data is even possible to exist.) Its fine to express your opinion, but I just dont like when people try and pass their opinion off as fact. Thats a huge problem with twitter, he has to link research there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 01:49 PM) You can twist it however you like, but if you dont present the evidence to support your claim, how can I verify that the data exists? Where did I ask for "full academic citations?" If youre going to post something as fact, then at minimum you could say "based on research by" or "in a study done by" so that I could at least attempt to find the data. What you posted provides no way of verifying the claim. My guess is that its because its opinion. I mean what research do you think includes whether students were more likely to be "body slammed" before or after a security guard was hired? Nah, check my edit. He had a follow-up with links. It's from multiple studies. There's no twisting here and your guess was wrong. He's a guy who's known for writing about civil liberties and police. That doesn't mean everything he says should be taken as gospel, but he is a reliable and knowledgeable source specifically in this field. If Tom Skilling tells me it's going to be 60 degrees and sunny today, I don't demand that he link all of his weather models. And it still goes back to his statement being directly relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 01:54 PM) Nah, check my edit. He had a follow-up with links. It's from multiple studies. There's no twisting here and your guess was wrong. He's a guy who's known for writing about civil liberties and police. That doesn't mean everything he says should be taken as gospel, but he is a reliable and knowledgeable source specifically in this field. If Tom Skilling tells me it's going to be 60 degrees and sunny today, I don't demand that he link all of his weather models. And it still goes back to his statement being directly relevant. The reason he posted links is because my original critique was valid. You cant just say something like that and not provide any source material. Comparing him to Tom Skilling is pretty bad, and I think you know that as well. That being said, the articles he cited do not support his contention of "More likely" to be beaten or body slammed. Those numbers would be impossible to prove, because there is no way to determine how many students were beaten/body slammed prior to the police being there. A better post would have been: "Studies have shown that police presence could have a negative impact." That is supported by the facts and cant be parsed as easily to show faulty methodology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) okay cool now that you've gotten that pedantic quibble over his specific rhetoric done with maybe we can actually return to the topic at hand Edited February 21, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 02:07 PM) okay cool now that you've gotten that pedantic quibble over his specific rhetoric done with maybe we can actually return to the topic at hand /shrugs Just trying to point out how things like that can be detrimental to the arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 My personal experience with the addition of an SRO was also poor. Kids did seem to be getting arrested for things that used to just end up with them in a cool down room and in school suspension. There was also a fight in the atrium, where the SRO ran in and indiscriminately pepper sprayed, causing hundreds of students to go home. The SRO was of course not disciplined. Assault is assault, but when you are a kid figuring stuff out physically wasn't that out of the ordinary but some just disappeared after that arrest and some stayed and I'm guessing those that stayed was the right move. I don't think an SRO can't work, but it's one of those things where I'd rather it have federal guidelines than left up to individual school districts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 And I guess the takeaway from that is the stuff that is absolutely more likely to happen to try and change something that will be rare but quite terrible. If you put 3 armed soldiers in front (Facebook meme), whose to say the school doesn't start asking them for help to do so and so, when they are just there watching the doors? And it bothers me that we so easily put this loss of freedom (getting in a fight in school without being sent to prison) on students and put so high of a barrier to things like delaying purchases of guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 21, 2018 -> 02:17 PM) And I guess the takeaway from that is the stuff that is absolutely more likely to happen to try and change something that will be rare but quite terrible. If you put 3 armed soldiers in front (Facebook meme), whose to say the school doesn't start asking them for help to do so and so, when they are just there watching the doors? And it bothers me that we so easily put this loss of freedom (getting in a fight in school without being sent to prison) on students and put so high of a barrier to things like delaying purchases of guns. The media has been highlighting schools that are basically prisons as the answer. I am not in favor of putting my kids in a prison during the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 18-year-old with a stash of legally bought weapons and no history of mental illness arrested when caught with a gun and knife at school. It doesn't specifically say that he had plans on shooting anyone at his school, but it seems to imply it. This is the second story I've read in the last week or so about a kid getting caught before he could do any damage. It also sort of blows a hole in theory that if we enact more gun laws, then only the criminals will have guns and that it's a mental health issue. Edited February 21, 2018 by Iwritecode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 We need a meme of Trump sitting at this meeting with the kids with a thought bubble edited in about what he's thinking about, because you know what it's not about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Trump wants 20% of teachers to have concealed carry... Compared to pilots having guns Or 3-4 former Marines/Army/Navy service members posted at every school in the country. Or former law enforcement officers. Costs? Edited February 21, 2018 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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