Gun Violence in America

[RockRaines]

I can’t believe Doxxing just became a thing on soxtalk. Jesus Christ. 

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

So, one question I have is that we've had a bunch of these school shootings now, but are schools themselves doing anything to change? Seems like in a lot of these cases the gunman is a student and is able to just stroll into school and start shooting. Where's the discussion at school board meetings about what districts are doing to change school protocol? 

Are we installing locking mechanisms on doors? Are we closing up access points so that entrances/exits are focused during certain hours? Obviously the government has failed us in a lot of ways, but even if we get a lot of the changes people want, there is still going to be the otherwise normal/sane person who flips and has access to his stockpile, so it still makes sense to implement some common sense stuff at schools. 

 

This has happened at most districts that can afford it. All doors are locked during school hours.

 

But again, this isn't just about schools! The largest mass shooting in US history, barely 7 months ago, was not at a school. Aurora wasn't a school. Gabby Giffords wasn't a school. At places like NIU and VaTech and other colleges, you can't have that sort of fortress mentality. Fort Hood was a damn military base.

[RockRaines]

1 minute ago, BigHurt3515 said:

I don't know much about other countries so I can't really speak to that. I don't know their gun laws or how many mentally ill people they have or how their schools are set up. All I have heard about Canada is how nice the people are there. So could it be how people are raised in each country? How much bulling there is? How many guns are illegally & legally being sold in each country? If there is a lot of security at their schools?

It could be a number of things but it was way more complicated than ban guns or make security better in schools. It is how to get illegal guns off the streets, how to make sure guns are being sold to people who pass psych evals & background checks. But what about the kids who steal guns from their parents & those parents not having any clue their kid is having issues? There are so many different ways to obtain weapons to hurt other people it is impossible to stop this stuff from happening.

You can have metal detectors in schools but what about the parking lot when kids are arriving to school or on the bus that has 50+ kids on it? Bad people will always find a way.

You aren’t going to stop it but you could drastically reduce it. You could severely limit access to ammo. You could have a nationwide registry. You could make guns have at least the same level of security as a ducking iPhone.

there are literally hundreds of ways to make even a small improvement. And the politicians have zero interest in doing so n

[RockRaines]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

This has happened at most districts that can afford it. All doors are locked during school hours.

 

But again, this isn't just about schools! The largest mass shooting in US history, barely 7 months ago, was not at a school. Aurora wasn't a school. Gabby Giffords wasn't a school. At places like NIU and VaTech and other colleges, you can't have that sort of fortress mentality. Fort Hood was a damn military base.

There was an armed officer at the school. He was shot. 

They had locking doors and drills. 

[StrangeSox]

I may have mentioned this after the last school shooting, but the hot thing at schools now is to give teachers tiny baseball bats, bags of golf balls, whatever, so they can attempt to attack the shooter. Depending on the district, kids may be instructed to throw books, chairs, whatever they can get their hands on if a shooter comes in the room.

It isn't because they expect these tactics to actually stop the shooter and save the lives in that room. It's to buy another 10 or 15 seconds, maybe another 5 or 10 rounds fired before they're all massacred. Because it gives that next classroom just a little bit more time. That's the kind of calculations that are going through school administration and teachers' and I'm sure increasingly students' heads.

I'm just glad my wife's next door teacher showed her how to wedge a chair in the door so it can't be opened from the outside even if unlocked during their last lock down drill.

 

edit: as someone who works in security, albeit a different field from schools, the cold calculation behind that ALICE training makes sense. it's just that it's such a punch in the gut that this is what we're reduced to in response to gun violence in this country. this is the best we've decided we can come up with.

Edited May 18, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

This has happened at most districts that can afford it. All doors are locked during school hours.

 

But again, this isn't just about schools! The largest mass shooting in US history, barely 7 months ago, was not at a school. Aurora wasn't a school. Gabby Giffords wasn't a school. At places like NIU and VaTech and other colleges, you can't have that sort of fortress mentality. Fort Hood was a damn military base.

Ok, then where's the congressman asking for federal dollars to provide those locks or metal detectors or whatever at all schools? Screw gun control, it's a lost battle, move on to what you can possible do, that's why i'm saying. If someone has, let's be promoting that instead of just b****ing about gun control over and over again which at this point people just ignore and scroll past in their twitter feed.

And yes, I understand this happens outside of schools. But we're complaining about inaction, so let's talk about possible solutions even in only a portion of the settings.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

To be fair, there is precedent with things like seat belts. When  mandatory seat belts in vehicles was being discussed, the group opposing them said "next hing you know they will fine us for not wearing them." Of course, the pro seat belt group insisted this would never happen.

Also you can't compare the US to other countries when you say that "not everything is a slippery slope" because it didn't happen elsewhere. The politics and legal systems are unique here and it's an "apples and oranges" comparison.

I don't think people really worry about seat belts anymore. Why you wouldn't wear one would be pretty silly. The last time I didn't wear one, I was involved in a head on collision. Luckily for me it was at an intersection where we both had stopped. He was drunk, swerved into my lane and totaled my car. My head hit the windshield, but I was oK. 

 

Do non smokers worry about smokers "rights".? How much nicer is it people don't smoke in bars anymore? There are condos where you can't smoke in your unit as it will leak into others. Smokers initially b****, but then adjust. They are amazing. I see people out smoking when it's 20 below windchill.

 

People would adjust just fine if there were stiffer gun control laws.

[Jenksismyhero]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

I may have mentioned this after the last school shooting, but the hot thing at schools now is to give teachers tiny baseball bats, bags of golf balls, whatever, so they can attempt to attack the shooter. Depending on the district, kids may be instructed to throw books, chairs, whatever they can get their hands on if a shooter comes in the room.

It isn't because they expect these tactics to actually stop the shooter and save the lives in that room. It's to buy another 10 or 15 seconds, maybe another 5 or 10 rounds fired before they're all massacred. Because it gives that next classroom just a little bit more time. That's the kind of calculations that are going through school administration and teachers' and I'm sure increasingly students' heads.

I'm just glad my wife's next door teacher showed her how to wedge a chair in the door so it can't be opened from the outside even if unlocked during their last lock down drill.

Like, why is this a thing? Install a fucking metal bracket/hook system to lock the door from the inside (or out) as soon as there is an active shooter situation. How expensive can that be?

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Ok, then where's the congressman asking for federal dollars to provide those locks or metal detectors or whatever at all schools? Screw gun control, it's a lost battle, move on to what you can possible do, that's why i'm saying. If someone has, let's be promoting that instead of just b****ing about gun control over and over again which at this point people just ignore and scroll past in their twitter feed.

And yes, I understand this happens outside of schools. But we're complaining about inaction, so let's talk about possible solutions even in only a portion of the settings.

It doesn't have to be. It's a small minority that is obsessed with guns and an admittedly powerful pro-gun (and especially gun manufacturer) lobby, but they can be beaten.

Let's actually do something at the root of this problem rather than promoting half-measure band-aids that only apply in some circumstances over and over and over again, or offering our "thoughts and prayers" before shifting to a "mental health" deflection that none of the pro-gun people actually want to do anything about either.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Ok, then where's the congressman asking for federal dollars to provide those locks or metal detectors or whatever at all schools? Screw gun control, it's a lost battle, move on to what you can possible do, that's why i'm saying. If someone has, let's be promoting that instead of just b****ing about gun control over and over again which at this point people just ignore and scroll past in their twitter feed.

And yes, I understand this happens outside of schools. But we're complaining about inaction, so let's talk about possible solutions even in only a portion of the settings.

I'm starting to think this way as well. If the politician refuse to act on gun control, maybe there is something they can agree upon. regardless of the reason, they don't seem to want to act so find something they will do. 

[StrangeSox]

4 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Like, why is this a thing? Install a fucking metal bracket/hook system to lock the door from the inside (or out) as soon as there is an active shooter situation. How expensive can that be?

hey guess what school architects and principles aren't security experts used to dealing with tactical responses to active shooters! 

 

also possibly fire code things? that's why all the doors open out from the classroom (constant egress), which means you couldn't' barricade the door shut with a desk

Edited May 18, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

It doesn't have to be. It's a small minority that is obsessed with guns and an admittedly powerful pro-gun (and especially gun manufacturer) lobby, but they can be beaten.

Let's actually do something at the root of this problem rather than promoting half-measure band-aids that only apply in some circumstances over and over and over again, or offering our "thoughts and prayers" before shifting to a "mental health" deflection that none of the pro-gun people actually want to do anything about either.

Do both then. 

As many have said for years now, if dead kids at Sandy Hook doesn't result in even minor changes, nothing will. It's insane to just continue to b**** about something that you've b****ed about before for years with zero action. Try another angle that doesn't involve guns, even if it's just a first step.

[RockRaines]

5 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Ok, then where's the congressman asking for federal dollars to provide those locks or metal detectors or whatever at all schools? Screw gun control, it's a lost battle, move on to what you can possible do, that's why i'm saying. If someone has, let's be promoting that instead of just b****ing about gun control over and over again which at this point people just ignore and scroll past in their twitter feed.

And yes, I understand this happens outside of schools. But we're complaining about inaction, so let's talk about possible solutions even in only a portion of the settings.

Improving gun technology and limiting ammo.  Both of those have nothing to do with the second amendment.

And nothing is ever a lost battle.  A large majority of the people in this country are for more gun control.  If the politicians voted with their constituents then it would be done already.

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Do both then. 

As many have said for years now, if dead kids at Sandy Hook doesn't result in even minor changes, nothing will. It's insane to just continue to b**** about something that you've b****ed about before for years with zero action. Try another angle that doesn't involve guns, even if it's just a first step.

You vote the assholes out.

It's much more insane to continually insist that nothing can be done as the dead bodies of children pile up.

[RockRaines]

1 minute ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Do both then. 

As many have said for years now, if dead kids at Sandy Hook doesn't result in even minor changes, nothing will. It's insane to just continue to b**** about something that you've b****ed about before for years with zero action. Try another angle that doesn't involve guns, even if it's just a first step.

You have to do something about guns, otherwise its a band aid on a bullet wound.  Whether its the accessories, the ammo, the rate of fire, the universal backround checks.  Something has to change

[GoSox05]

1 minute ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Like, why is this a thing? Install a fucking metal bracket/hook system to lock the door from the inside (or out) as soon as there is an active shooter situation. How expensive can that be?

I think most schools have at least some security measures.  At my wife's school they have some of the basic stuff. 

Even if they put in metal doors, metal detectors and stuff like that.  A kid or adult could just wait outside for that final bell and wait till all the kids come rushing out of the school.  I'm actually surprised that hasn't happened yet.

[Jenksismyhero]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

hey guess what school architects and principles aren't security experts used to dealing with tactical responses to active shooters! 

 

also possibly fire code things?

So go find an expert and talk to one. That's something a school can do without the need for government intervention. 

And change the laws if we have to. Changing fire codes is a helluva lot easier than gun laws.

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

I think most schools have at least some security measures.  At my wife's school they have some of the basic stuff. 

Even if they put in metal doors, metal detectors and stuff like that.  A kid or adult could just wait outside for that final bell and wait till all the kids come rushing out of the school.  I'm actually surprised that hasn't happened yet.

or pull the fire alarm

do it at the football game

etc.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I don't think people really worry about seat belts anymore. Why you wouldn't wear one would be pretty silly. The last time I didn't wear one, I was involved in a head on collision. Luckily for me it was at an intersection where we both had stopped. He was drunk, swerved into my lane and totaled my car. My head hit the windshield, but I was oK. 

 

Do non smokers worry about smokers "rights".? How much nicer is it people don't smoke in bars anymore? There are condos where you can't smoke in your unit as it will leak into others. Smokers initially b****, but then adjust. They are amazing. I see people out smoking when it's 20 below windchill.

 

People would adjust just fine if there were stiffer gun control laws.

This is all true but it doesn't mean that they won't take more things away if they ever started the gun control laws. The pro gun people do have a justified concern.

"rights" isn't the point. The point is that when they start to regulate something and promise they won't regulate it even further to get people to agree to it, they are most likely not telling you the truth. Thus jusitfying the concerns of the group. 

I'm not saying it isn't smart to wear a seat belt. I'm not saying that it isn't smart to add levels of gun control. I'm saying that the people concerned about "the slippery slope effect" have justifiable concerns.

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

So go find an expert and talk to one. That's something a school can do without the need for government intervention. 

And change the laws if we have to. Changing fire codes is a helluva lot easier than gun laws.

If there's a fire code reason (e.g. why doors open out from the classrooms, for constant egress), you don't just override that because this country is too dumb to do anything about guns. It also costs money to do that, and as we've seen from mass teacher action in a number of states now, schools don't exactly have extra money.

[soxfan49]

17 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

So, one question I have is that we've had a bunch of these school shootings now, but are schools themselves doing anything to change? Seems like in a lot of these cases the gunman is a student and is able to just stroll into school and start shooting. Where's the discussion at school board meetings about what districts are doing to change school protocol? 

Are we installing locking mechanisms on doors? Are we closing up access points so that entrances/exits are focused during certain hours? Obviously the government has failed us in a lot of ways, but even if we get a lot of the changes people want, there is still going to be the otherwise normal/sane person who flips and has access to his stockpile, so it still makes sense to implement some common sense stuff at schools. 

 

That’s kind of what I said but then it turned into “oh so like airport security?” and “oh so like prison?”

No, it’s called safety. Metal detectors are a start. Patting down those who set the detector off is a start. Doors are indeed locked but with a simple buzz in, not letting everyone in just because they say they have someone to pick up is a start.

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

Improving gun technology and limiting ammo.  Both of those have nothing to do with the second amendment.

And nothing is ever a lost battle.  A large majority of the people in this country are for more gun control.  If the politicians voted with their constituents then it would be done already.

This winds up being the issue. If they won't do anything about it, do we wait until the next election and hope to get a change? Or do they try to find something that they can agree upon?

[StrangeSox]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This winds up being the issue. If they won't do anything about it, do we wait until the next election and hope to get a change? Or do they try to find something that they can agree upon?

If Toomey -Manchin couldn't pass after Sandy Hook, what sort of compromise do you imagine could ever be reached?

Edited May 18, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

This is all true but it doesn't mean that they won't take more things away if they ever started the gun control laws. The pro gun people do have a justified concern.

"rights" isn't the point. The point is that when they start to regulate something and promise they won't regulate it even further to get people to agree to it, they are most likely not telling you the truth. Thus jusitfying the concerns of the group. 

I'm not saying it isn't smart to wear a seat belt. I'm not saying that it isn't smart to add levels of gun control. I'm saying that the people concerned about "the slippery slope effect" have justifiable concerns.

Yea but here you are arguing that the slippery slope led to an extremely smart safety measure with belts like thats a bad thing.   If the slippery slope with gun control leads to a guy losing his guns because he has a history of mental illness or anger issues, i really dont see what the problem is.  

 

And thats the crux here, 2A people want full and unfettered control of their weapons with zero checks or balances, and thats just not anything i can understand.   Dangerous things need to have safety measures for everyone.  

[RockRaines]

7 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

So go find an expert and talk to one. That's something a school can do without the need for government intervention. 

And change the laws if we have to. Changing fire codes is a helluva lot easier than gun laws.

Schools can not afford basic supplies or payroll for their teachers, where is this money going to come from?