Rating the Rebuild: Completed Year 1 Edition

[bmags]

edit: i'm deleting the quoted post.

 

I wouldn't have guessed that.

 

I always kinda believed we'd end up with less than we thought, but I definitely would have guessed in July of last year we'd end up with 4-5 can't miss up the middle players. End up like Cubs with a bunch of players that can play everywhere.

 

But, part of this is also benchmarking sox moves to others. We had the best assets, but we also moved early and got the best packages from the teams that could offer them before serious plan Bs came to the market. That's the part I really respect. If I didn't have that info and you straight up just told me the packages we got in July 2016? I'd be nervous.

[almagest]

And this is why I quit saying it. Its all backup quarterback syndrome.

I'm interested to hear what you would've liked to see done differently. I think I remember you were hoping for more younger position players to fill out the low minor leagues, but the Sox have quite a few interesting position prospects in A+/AA now.

[chitownsportsfan]

And this is why I quit saying it. Its all backup quarterback syndrome.

 

I mean in an alt universe maybe if the Sox keep Eaton, Sale, etc they win 87 games this year and are playing the Yankees in a one game play in tonight...but do you really think that is sustainable? The key thing Hahn keeps emphasizing is a "sustained period of contending". Not just hoping to have a perfect offseason to reach 87 wins and hoping for a fluke playoff run. Hahn is trying to do a Astros and Cubs style rebuild where you have a 4-6 year window, not just a year to year hope and a prayer.

 

I know you know all this and you're still not excited but I just couldn't get excited about the Sox' "doubling down" year after year and never ever over achieving just always under achieving and disappointing us.

[jenksycat]

And this is why I quit saying it. Its all backup quarterback syndrome.

 

What was the alternative and how is it backup qb? We saw what the current core could do: come in 3rd or 4th place with a hot month here or there.

 

Honestly, what would have been better in your opinion?

-Keep the current core and plug the holes with bargain bin free agents? Nope

-Keep the current core and plug the holes with prime free agents and a 300m payroll? Could have in theory worked as long as you had no duds and had infinite money to spend

-Keep the current core and plug holes with home grown talent? What talent & how long would that have taken? Do the Sox not have a decade+ worth of failing at scouting & developing talent?

[jenksycat]

Because of that dang Yankees trade. It was light almost all around. That's why I and many others dropped their score from a 10. I gave it a 9. My favorite year in recent memory

 

I'm not arguing a 10/10 vs 9/10. I'm arguing with the idea that this has somehow been a "failure" which is absurd to me.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, I am deleting my posts. No interest in rehashing all of that again.

[chitownsportsfan]

Yeah, I am deleting my posts. No interest in rehashing all of that again.

 

I don't think anybody is coming at you maliciously, just curious as to your thinking now based on what you said at the time, which was almost 100% disappointment with the direction the club was going.

[jenksycat]

I don't think anybody is coming at you maliciously, just curious as to your thinking now based on what you said at the time, which was almost 100% disappointment with the direction the club was going.

 

Yep, no maliciousness unless you have Greg in your name. Genuinely curious as I just don't understand the mindset at all and have yet to see a logical defense of it.

[greg775]

Yeah, I am deleting my posts. No interest in rehashing all of that again.

I stand by your posts. Yes I gave the rebuild a 4, it's up from 2 earlier though. I'll be glad to amend if/when we start winning. If it's worthy, baby, I'll give it a 7, 8, 9 even a 10. But right now I'm with south.

[southsider2k5]

I stand by your posts. Yes I gave the rebuild a 4, it's up from 2 earlier though. I'll be glad to amend if/when we start winning. If it's worthy, baby, I'll give it a 7, 8, 9 even a 10. But right now I'm with south.

 

You are literally the only reason I doubt my position on the rebuild.

[jenksycat]

You are literally the only reason I doubt my position on the rebuild.

 

 

[hi8is]

I stand by your posts. Yes I gave the rebuild a 4, it's up from 2 earlier though. I'll be glad to amend if/when we start winning. If it's worthy, baby, I'll give it a 7, 8, 9 even a 10. But right now I'm with south.

You're the only poster out of what -- 5,000+ who is going to rate this effort a F... does that tell you anything?

[credezcrew24]

I know it's weird to think about, but we have to remember that "market value" means "no surplus value." So what a team is willing to pay for a "market value" asset is literally a matter of how much they are willing to OVERPAY for the asset given their current situation in the standings.

 

Getting anything significant for a "market value" asset is a good deal, and largely depends more on the context around the teams involved that it does on one person's "skills" as a negotiator.

 

I guess I should have phrased that better. But there is a huge difference between market value during free agency and in the middle of the season. Robinson was one of the BPA at a position that every team could use help.

[BlackSox13]

You're the only poster out of what -- 5,000+ who is going to rate this effort a F... does that tell you anything?

Yep but you're talking to a poster that has admitted they don't follow the minor leagues which makes their rating of a rebuild utterly silly. I mean, how can someone rate a rebuild when they don't follow the minors? Derp!

[chitownsportsfan]

Surprisingly well put together article via the trib, with some good quotes from Hahn, Renteria, Avi and Jose:

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...1001-story.html

 

"I think we're going to be a very good team next season," slugger Jose Abreu said through a team interpreter. "The young guys are going to have more experience and we're trying to guide them to the right path and to the right way to be a competitive team. We have all the tools to be a very, very good team."

 

We're going to come back with a lot of fire," catcher Kevan Smith said. "We've knocked a couple of teams out of the playoffs and it kind of shows that we can be a top-caliber team in the big leagues. I don't know what the White Sox's plans are with getting any guys, but I think with the guys we have here we can definitely compete and put a good season together and make a run for the postseason."

 

The notion that people are even entertaining the idea that we could contend in one year into this process I think shows that people feel very optimistic and pleased with what we've been able to do so far," Hahn said. "Ultimately, our goal as we we've stated throughout is to put ourselves in a position to be a World Series contender and a World Series champion year in and year out."

 

Much more at the link.

[BlackSox13]

Don't fall down the rabbit hole.

Ha ha, you're right. Thanks Tony!

 

Can you show the gif just once more as a reminder to others?

[BlackSox13]

Surprisingly well put together article via the trib, with some good quotes from Hahn, Renteria, Avi and Jose:

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...1001-story.html

 

 

 

Much more at the link.

Thanks for posting this dude. I like the confidence the players have but the hitting is further along than the pitching. IMHO, the pitching needs one more season to be a potential playoff team.

 

One thing I don't like is the Twinkies reference. Not to take anything from them but if it wasn't for the Sox and Tigers being so bad, the Twinkies could have been a .500 team or worse.

[BlackSox13]

Never go full rabbit hole.

 

Atta boy!

[BlackSox13]

There is for sure some PR fluff going on, but it's really nice to have a club going into the off-season trending upwards, and you know the players can feel it. Aside from Shields who seems to be a great influence on the younger guys, there legit isn't 1 guy on the roster that is just collecting a paycheck in the twilight of their career which is incredibly refreshing to see.

 

The arrow is pointing up and everyone can sense it.

Yep, I love the confidence and edgy attitude by the players, Avi especially has that edge or chip on his shoulder. The offense is going to beat teams in many different ways which is very refreshing from the station to station teams we've seen in the past.

 

Good point on the payroll too. The Sox have so much flexibility it's crazy. Allows the Sox to lock players up in the years to come as they break out.

 

Another aspect I really like is Renteria. He has his quirks but he's learning with his team and getting better. He's not too aggressive like Ozzie but not passive like Robin. The players sure like playing for him and that's good enough for me.

 

Oh, almost forgot. The Sox have a legit player/coach on the field in Abreu. Would really like to see the Sox try to work out an extension that would keep him around for a few more years beyond his remaining two arbitration years. His ability to lead by example is already helping the youngsters and will help others as they come up over the next few years.

[greg775]

You are literally the only reason I doubt my position on the rebuild.

At least I have the guts to admit to my rating of 4. I'm not hiding behind my rating. It's gone up from the 2 last time. It can keep going up.

 

You're the only poster out of what -- 5,000+ who is going to rate this effort a F... does that tell you anything?

The rebuild is off to a good start. It has a long way to go. I'd have given it a 5 (at this early early stage) but a.) did you see our record this year? b.) have you read the posts here? Some well respected posters in the last couple days have expressed some doubt regarding Burger, Rutherford, Rodon, Fulmer and during the season expressed concern about Lopez and TA. Also to have a great rebuild we're gonna need a bullpen someday; we're gonna need a DH, etc. Hence, 4 (AT THIS TIME). Why is my position so offensive? Cause I haven't drank the koolaid yet?? Be patient. My grade can go up. We're rating the rebuild right now.

 

Yep but you're talking to a poster that has admitted they don't follow the minor leagues which makes their rating of a rebuild utterly silly. I mean, how can someone rate a rebuild when they don't follow the minors? Derp!

I know Eloy is doing great and know about Collins, etc. I follow it enough to know who is looking good. I'm pretty satisfied with the performance of our key players.

Don't know why my position is so annoying. I want the rebuild to succeed; I acknowledge the rebuild could succeed. But I really don't think it deserves an 8 or 9 right yet.

Edited October 4, 2017 by greg775

[chitownsportsfan]

At least I have the guts to admit to my rating of 4. I'm not hiding behind my rating. It's gone up from the 2 last time. It can keep going up.

 

 

The rebuild is off to a good start. It has a long way to go. I'd have given it a 5 (at this early early stage) but a.) did you see our record this year? b.) have you read the posts here? Some well respected posters in the last couple days have expressed some doubt regarding Burger, Rutherford, Rodon, Fulmer and during the season expressed concern about Lopez and TA. Also to have a great rebuild we're gonna need a bullpen someday; we're gonna need a DH, etc. Hence, 4 (AT THIS TIME). Why is my position so offensive? Cause I haven't drank the koolaid yet?? Be patient. My grade can go up. We're rating the rebuild right now.

 

 

I know Eloy is doing great and know about Collins, etc. I follow it enough to know who is looking good. I'm pretty satisfied with the performance of our key players.

Don't know why my position is so annoying. I want the rebuild to succeed; I acknowledge the rebuild could succeed. But I really don't think it deserves an 8 or 9 right yet.

 

hey at least you reasoned it out in this one.

[hi8is]

At least I have the guts to admit to my rating of 4. I'm not hiding behind my rating. It's gone up from the 2 last time. It can keep going up.

 

 

The rebuild is off to a good start. It has a long way to go. I'd have given it a 5 (at this early early stage) but a.) did you see our record this year? b.) have you read the posts here? Some well respected posters in the last couple days have expressed some doubt regarding Burger, Rutherford, Rodon, Fulmer and during the season expressed concern about Lopez and TA. Also to have a great rebuild we're gonna need a bullpen someday; we're gonna need a DH, etc. Hence, 4 (AT THIS TIME). Why is my position so offensive? Cause I haven't drank the koolaid yet?? Be patient. My grade can go up. We're rating the rebuild right now.

 

 

I know Eloy is doing great and know about Collins, etc. I follow it enough to know who is looking good. I'm pretty satisfied with the performance of our key players.

Don't know why my position is so annoying. I want the rebuild to succeed; I acknowledge the rebuild could succeed. But I really don't think it deserves an 8 or 9 right yet.

To initially say that what has occurred was "insulting" is an invitation for some criticism but I'll continue to say this: you've got integrity.

[BlackSox13]

This is something that we as fans are going to have to start to wrap our head around. At some point, big time money is going to have to be spent somewhere. That's why I'm in the "explore Stanton" camp. I'm not sure if it's the right investment to make, but because of the payroll flexibility, it's something worth looking into. They can still lock up the core pieces on this team and have a lot left over to invest in reinforcements.

 

I guess my point is we are going to see a lot about "the flexibility is great, no big contracts" but at some point, the money is going to be needed to compete.

Yep, with ya on Stanton. I have no interest, period. I know this won't be popular but I'm not interested in Machado either but for different reasons. 3B is brutal on the lower back and combine that with how many years he will get (8-10), I just don't trust he would hold up over the life of the contract at 3B. Now if Machado was willing to play some 1B and hit in the DH spot to give his back days off from diving at the hot corner, I would change my tune for sure.

 

The Sox FO has said they will spend when the time comes and I do believe they will. With the talent on the major league team and in the minors, there's potential for the Sox to have a much bigger core than what they had in Sale, Q, Abreu and Eaton. That means it will require money to be reserved for the future to lock those players up when the time comes and this is what I hope Sox fans understand over the next, say, 2-5 years. The lack of spending doesn't mean they are cheap, just that they want to make sure they have the money to lock up their core talent.If the Sox do end up with a large core, their salaries will add up quick but it will be for talent they drafted/acquired via trade and developed at the MLB level that have yet to peak, unlike many of the FA veteran contracts that almost always turn sour and inhibit future moves. When the time comes, I'd much rather they spend big on their own talent and use the FA market to fill in around them.

 

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The rebuild is off to a good start. It has a long way to go. I'd have given it a 5 (at this early early stage) but a.) did you see our record this year? b.) have you read the posts here? Some well respected posters in the last couple days have expressed some doubt regarding Burger, Rutherford, Rodon, Fulmer and during the season expressed concern about Lopez and TA. Also to have a great rebuild we're gonna need a bullpen someday; we're gonna need a DH, etc. Hence, 4 (AT THIS TIME). Why is my position so offensive? Cause I haven't drank the koolaid yet?? Be patient. My grade can go up. We're rating the rebuild right now.

 

 

Our record should clearly factor into a discussion about the first year of a rebuild. Because that makes sense lmao

Edited October 4, 2017 by soxfan2014

[BlackSox13]

Never go full rabbit hole.

 

 

 

Our record should clearly factor into a discussion about the first year of a rebuild. Because that makes sense lmao