southsider2k5 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 06:37 PM) He'd likely decline. And there's no way the Sox (or any team acquiring Stanton) would be paying all of that $285m. If the Marlins pick up cash, they will ask for a bigger return. My guess is with the price they just paid for the team, they aren't going to be superwilling to pick up a significant amount of cash unless they are getting a Top 10 in baseball guy back as the start of the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I think you guys are overestimating how big the market is going to be for 300+ mil deals. If you include Stanton there's at least 3 of them to go around and the Yankees/Nats/Cubs/BoSox aren't going to sign multiples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 06:58 PM) I think you guys are overestimating how big the market is going to be for 300+ mil deals. If you include Stanton there's at least 3 of them to go around and the Yankees/Nats/Cubs/BoSox aren't going to sign multiples. If teams like the Dodgers and Yankees get beneath the cap this offseason so that they're not paying the multi-year offender tax in 2019, I think you're underestimating how many there will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 06:14 PM) I meant for the Yankees with Judge. If adding Stanton gave the Sox 100+ dingers that means Eloy or Roberts are awesome which I also am not opposed to. aaaahh...gotcha...my bad. I thought you were pairing Stanton and Jimenez! I still don't want to toss that much coin at one player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 07:10 PM) If teams like the Dodgers and Yankees get beneath the cap this offseason so that they're not paying the multi-year offender tax in 2019, I think you're underestimating how many there will be. Then they're not gonna resign their own guys that will be up for 300+ deals a couple years later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) I too don't understand where the "Collins had a bad year" agenda-pushers came from. I'll take an .816 OPS with his defensive improvements any day. Depends on how you view stats. Given that his OPS is driven a lot from a strong OBP (as well as solid power numbers), you could view it as assuming those same components will carry forward at higher levels or you can take the approach that if he can't hit at the lower levels, you will see even worse hitting at higher levels. Additionally, higher level pitchers are more accurate and given those stats aren't going to be pitching around you, which then bodes the question of how much will you really benefit from that strong plate discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 07:24 PM) Depends on how you view stats. Given that his OPS is driven a lot from a strong OBP (as well as solid power numbers), you could view it as assuming those same components will carry forward at higher levels or you can take the approach that if he can't hit at the lower levels, you will see even worse hitting at higher levels. Additionally, higher level pitchers are more accurate and given those stats aren't going to be pitching around you, which then bodes the question of how much will you really benefit from that strong plate discipline. I see your point, but I could counter with the Narvaez example someone used earlier. He's nowhere near the power threat Collins can be, yet his elite plate discipline has translated to solid offensive production at the MLB level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 While it would be hella fun, I'd prefer they give that money to Manny Machado. He's kind of a punk, but he will only be 26, has a pair of 6+ WAR seasons, plays amazing defense, is a 30+ HR hitter, and has been mostly very durable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 07:35 PM) I see your point, but I could counter with the Narvaez example someone used earlier. He's nowhere near the power threat Collins can be, yet his elite plate discipline has translated to solid offensive production at the MLB level. If Narvaez had a bit more pop he could be a starting caliber catching option. As he is right now he is a very solid backup on a good team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 09:35 AM) If Narvaez had a bit more pop he could be a starting caliber catching option. As he is right now he is a very solid backup on a good team. I wonder what the league average OPS was for catching this year. Even with the lack of power, I think many teams would love to have his bat behind the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 09:41 AM) I wonder what the league average OPS was for catching this year. Even with the lack of power, I think many teams would love to have his bat behind the plate. 0.724 league wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 09:42 AM) 0.724 league wide. So he came in just below average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 09:43 AM) So he came in just below average. Keep in mind though that OPS overrates SLG and underrates OBP, the latter is far more important. Narvaez had a 100 wRC+ and the league average catcher had a 90 wRC+ so he was solidly above average with the bat for a catcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 my 2 cents: If you have a choice between Arenado, Harper, Machado and Stanton and you tell me the Sox WILL sign one? I put Stanton at the back of that list. I still like Arenado and Machado a whole lot more than the others. However at the same time if you tell me this is JUST a contract dump? I'd entertain Stanton. I do think he'll have a big trade market however if it just a contract dump. Giants, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs, RedSox, Dodgers can all absorb that price tag a lot easier than us.. People may think I'm crazy, but I can see the Yankees going after Stanton AND Harper... Imagine an OF of Judge, Stanton and Harper ...... infield of Torres, Sanchez, etc. But to go back to the original question - yes I'd acquire Stanton. He'll be 38 at the end of the deal ... Pujols is 37. It's not inconceivable for Stanton to play 6-7 really good years within that contract and a few more at replacement level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 10:23 AM) my 2 cents: If you have a choice between Arenado, Harper, Machado and Stanton and you tell me the Sox WILL sign one? I put Stanton at the back of that list. I still like Arenado and Machado a whole lot more than the others. However at the same time if you tell me this is JUST a contract dump? I'd entertain Stanton. I do think he'll have a big trade market however if it just a contract dump. Giants, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs, RedSox, Dodgers can all absorb that price tag a lot easier than us.. People may think I'm crazy, but I can see the Yankees going after Stanton AND Harper... Imagine an OF of Judge, Stanton and Harper ...... infield of Torres, Sanchez, etc. But to go back to the original question - yes I'd acquire Stanton. He'll be 38 at the end of the deal ... Pujols is 37. It's not inconceivable for Stanton to play 6-7 really good years within that contract and a few more at replacement level. With the new luxury tax penalties I can't see the Yankees going crazy in free agency anymore. I get they have space to play with, but to get Stanton and Harper might cost them $75-100 million a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) I read that the Phillies only have like $7 mill committed to next year's payroll with very few arbitration guys. They will be players in that 18/19 class (unless they hold off and wait for Philly sports fan Mike Trout to be a free agent) although it seems like they could be set in the OF for a while so maybe Machado or Arenado makes sense if Franco still hasn't figured it out yet. Edited October 4, 2017 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 10:58 AM) I read that the Phillies only have like $7 mill committed to next year's payroll with very few arbitration guys. They will be players in that 18/19 class (unless they hold off and wait for Philly sports fan Mike Trout to be a free agent). Trout really "screwed" (quotes because he still made 100m) himself with that extension. Stuck on a garbage team that will never make it out of the ALDS whenever they manage to stumble into the playoffs. Wasted almost entire prime of the best player in a generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 11:27 AM) Trout really "screwed" (quotes because he still made 100m) himself with that extension. Stuck on a garbage team that will never make it out of the ALDS whenever they manage to stumble into the playoffs. Wasted almost entire prime of the best player in a generation. He'll be 29 when he hits free agency so he can still be in line for another great pay day from a contender (assuming he doesn't completely fall off a cliff). Edited October 4, 2017 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 11:29 AM) He'll be 29 when he hits free agency so he can still be in line for another great pay day from a contender (assuming he doesn't completely fall off a cliff). For sure, he'll still get 200+...but he coulda been a FA right now as a 25 year old and wrote his own contract. Imagine a 15 year 500m deal with opt outs every year or 2 so he could escape a s*** team if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 10:23 AM) my 2 cents: If you have a choice between Arenado, Harper, Machado and Stanton and you tell me the Sox WILL sign one? I put Stanton at the back of that list. I still like Arenado and Machado a whole lot more than the others. However at the same time if you tell me this is JUST a contract dump? I'd entertain Stanton. I do think he'll have a big trade market however if it just a contract dump. Giants, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs, RedSox, Dodgers can all absorb that price tag a lot easier than us.. People may think I'm crazy, but I can see the Yankees going after Stanton AND Harper... Imagine an OF of Judge, Stanton and Harper ...... infield of Torres, Sanchez, etc. But to go back to the original question - yes I'd acquire Stanton. He'll be 38 at the end of the deal ... Pujols is 37. It's not inconceivable for Stanton to play 6-7 really good years within that contract and a few more at replacement level. I may be alone here but give me Arenado any day of the week.. I'd rank them Arenado, Harper then a STEEP dropoff to Machado, Stanton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Stanton is tough to value. There's really no excess value on that contract, but I have a hard time seeing MIA just dumping him after this past season unless they get something in return. I'd consider giving up Rutherford and a couple lower level guys for him. I don't see us outbidding others for a Harper, Machado, etc. in free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 11:58 AM) Stanton is tough to value. There's really no excess value on that contract, but I have a hard time seeing MIA just dumping him after this past season unless they get something in return. I'd consider giving up Rutherford and a couple lower level guys for him. I don't see us outbidding others for a Harper, Machado, etc. in free agency. This thought is worth a mention. If you are of the mindset that the White Sox won't be in the $300 million playas club, maybe you view a Stanton deal a little differently as a chance to get a guy like this on to your team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenericUserName Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 11:58 AM) Stanton is tough to value. There's really no excess value on that contract, but I have a hard time seeing MIA just dumping him after this past season unless they get something in return. I'd consider giving up Rutherford and a couple lower level guys for him. I don't see us outbidding others for a Harper, Machado, etc. in free agency. This is exactly why I would want us to get Stanton if the prospect cost isn't prohibitive. Everyone is saying they would rather have one of the other three guys, but what are the odds we actually get one of them? Not only would we have to match the offers from teams that have far greater financial resources, we would have to convince him to come to the south side, and when have we ever done that with top tier domestic free agents? Stanton may not provide as much value as some of the other guys, but he does give us certainty of having that top tier player whereas going after the other guys presents a risk of us missing out on all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 09:23 AM) my 2 cents: If you have a choice between Arenado, Harper, Machado and Stanton and you tell me the Sox WILL sign one? I put Stanton at the back of that list. I still like Arenado and Machado a whole lot more than the others. However at the same time if you tell me this is JUST a contract dump? I'd entertain Stanton. I do think he'll have a big trade market however if it just a contract dump. Giants, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs, RedSox, Dodgers can all absorb that price tag a lot easier than us.. People may think I'm crazy, but I can see the Yankees going after Stanton AND Harper... Imagine an OF of Judge, Stanton and Harper ...... infield of Torres, Sanchez, etc. But to go back to the original question - yes I'd acquire Stanton. He'll be 38 at the end of the deal ... Pujols is 37. It's not inconceivable for Stanton to play 6-7 really good years within that contract and a few more at replacement level. Harper has already pretty much said no to the yanks. says he hates new York. He also doesn't like their rules on facial hair and hair cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Oct 4, 2017 -> 12:10 PM) This is exactly why I would want us to get Stanton if the prospect cost isn't prohibitive. Everyone is saying they would rather have one of the other three guys, but what are the odds we actually get one of them? Not only would we have to match the offers from teams that have far greater financial resources, we would have to convince him to come to the south side, and when have we ever done that with top tier domestic free agents? Stanton may not provide as much value as some of the other guys, but he does give us certainty of having that top tier player whereas going after the other guys presents a risk of us missing out on all of them. Yeah, that's basically it. And Stanton's contract may end up looking decent in a few years compared to what it would take to land one of these other big names in free agency. If he opts out in three years, that probably means you got some nice production out of him. That's worth Rutherford+, I think. Taking on the contract is certainly a big gamble, but that's true if you're willing to go after any of these big name guys. Edited October 4, 2017 by bighurt574 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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