The Sale Trade

[Bob Sacamano]

I was trying to be nice. I thought those of us who didn't want a rebuild were in the vast minority. You seem to freak out over my posts. Take a deep breath and realize I am not the enemy. I am a Sox fan, too. If I am wrong, give me your take, but you don't need to freak out and be bothered by me. I don't disagree with you folks that much. I am wait and see on the rebuild rather than excited about it; I like Avi and Abreu and Davidson a bit more than most and get defensive when they get criticized, yes; I tend to be more disturbed about our bullpen and 3 lousy starters (Shields, Pelphrey and Holland) than most. (Yes, I understand why they are here during the "we don't care about winning" part of the rebuild (waiting for younger players part of rebuild). So that's about it in terms of gross disagreements with the majority here. Relax and enjoy the upcoming winter. Oh wait. It will be horrid like all winters.

 

You just act like you are in the minority in all of your posts. We ALL, if not most, loved the 1-2 punch of Chris Sale and Quintana. It's not like you had an original thought/idea/opinion about them. We all loved what they were and how great they pitched for us. Its' similar to your Abreu posts. You're the only one who values Abreu according to you.

 

 

[greg775]

You just act like you are in the minority in all of your posts. We ALL, if not most, loved the 1-2 punch of Chris Sale and Quintana. It's not like you had an original thought/idea/opinion about them. We all loved what they were and how great they pitched for us. Its' similar to your Abreu posts. You're the only one who values Abreu according to you.

Again, take a deep breath. I am not the enemy. I am not the stereotypical message board enemy. The 10 percent of people who like me on here realize I can listen to reason and simply am emotional about my perceptions of how it should be re. the Sox.

 

I thought I was in the vast minority of those wanting to keep Sale/Q and try to win divisions now. I didn't mean to imply nobody liked them as much as me. BTW if you were around then, I didn't care that Sale cut up those uniforms, either, as I understood his not wanting to wear the uniform and he had reportedly asked the Sox to not have him pitch the day they wore those monstrocities. I'm not the only one who values Abreu, but I did get very upset when people acted as if that record was nothing just cause he was older.

Edited October 4, 2017 by greg775

[bmags]

Based on premise of first post, I think we'll actually see a better player than sale (to me, likely a position player) traded, and a better package given up.

 

Kopech became top pitching prospect later on. And I think there are already teams that have or will come close with top hitter/pitcher.

 

Braves with Acuna and a jump from Allard/Wright

Nats had the reverse at the time, but Giolito/Robles

And Pads could end up in the position with Tatis Jr/Gore in a few years.

 

Point being, teams often are there or close to having a top hitter/pitcher. And what made the position possible for sox was that team was also competitive.

 

So I think it was a more rare than common, but it's possible and now there is precedent.

[southsider2k5]

Considering his signing bonus, I don't think anyone knew about Tatis. It was a lottery ticket that exploded. Whether it translates into a long major league career is yet to be seen.

 

He got a $600,000 bonus. While not the biggest, he was on the podium with the other big July 2 signings for the White Sox and was the Sox second biggest signing that year.

 

EDIT: It was actually 700k

[Dick Allen]

He got a $600,000 bonus. While not the biggest, he was on the podium with the other big July 2 signings for the White Sox and was the Sox second biggest signing that year.

Where did it rank overall? Obviously it was more than some, but not one that is given to someone they think will be a top 10 overall prospect in 2 years. I'm guessing no other team offered him more than the White Sox, and if it was then considered what he is considered now, or even anywhere near, his bonus would have been significantly higher.

 

When you are signing 16 year olds, there aren't many sure things. They are pretty much all lottery tickets.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Where did it rank overall? Obviously it was more than some, but not one that is given to someone they think will be a top 10 overall prospect in 2 years. I'm guessing no other team offered him more than the White Sox, and if it was then considered what he is considered now, or even anywhere near, his bonus would have been significantly higher.

 

When you are signing 16 year olds, there aren't many sure things.

 

 

Yet the White Sox were the ones who signed him. Where they erred was in not knowing that San Diego wasn't disclosing full medical records on their players and thought they were getting the historical James Shields, and not the one with a bum shoulder.

[Dick Allen]

Yet the White Sox were the ones who signed him. Where they erred was in not knowing that San Diego wasn't disclosing full medical records on their players and thought they were getting the historical James Shields, and not the one with a bum shoulder.

Which is precisely my point. The guy was a lottery ticket who exploded. He never played one inning for the White Sox organization. If he were considered an all over top 10 talent, the Sox would never have traded him. Their bonus would have been a lot more, and maybe another team would have offered even more.

[bmags]

One thing I feel kinda sure of. Had Tatis Jr actually played on the field for some games prior to the trade it would have never happened. THe rumors about him began almost immediately for when he took the field.

[iamshack]

One thing I feel kinda sure of. Had Tatis Jr actually played on the field for some games prior to the trade it would have never happened. THe rumors about him began almost immediately for when he took the field.

Preller is well known for getting some of these guys that are further away before other teams even know what it is they have.

 

It was a mistake, but it was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

The good thing is, Shields may actually become a serviceable SP next year, and if that helps this Club start developing a winning culture with this group of young kids, well, then at least we have that going for us, which is nice.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

One thing I feel kinda sure of. Had Tatis Jr actually played on the field for some games prior to the trade it would have never happened. THe rumors about him began almost immediately for when he took the field.

Probably. It goes back to what Buddy Bell said at a Soxfest seminar. Most of these signees are scouted not playing games but at these showcases where they take BP, make some throws, and sprint. He was saying you wouldn't believe some of the basic things that need to be taught to these guys after they are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, because they haven't played many games. Tatis probably had a better background actually playing because of his father.

[southsider2k5]

Which is precisely my point. The guy was a lottery ticket who exploded. He never played one inning for the White Sox organization. If he were considered an all over top 10 talent, the Sox would never have traded him. Their bonus would have been a lot more, and maybe another team would have offered even more.

 

A guy signed for $700k and in the top 30 isn't a lottery ticket guy. That is more like Reynaldo Lopez who was a $10k signing. The rivisionist history here to pain the White Sox as ignorant of a guy they paid top dollar for is bizarre.

[iamshack]

A guy signed for $700k and in the top 30 isn't a lottery ticket guy. That is more like Reynaldo Lopez who was a $10k signing. The rivisionist history here to pain the White Sox as ignorant of a guy they paid top dollar for is bizarre.

Point taken, but still, a lot of guys are paid that kind of money and really end up being nothing.

 

I think one of the kids the Mariners traded to the Marlins was a guy that signed for over $1M, and yet, no one really knows what they have in him yet.

[Dick Allen]

A guy signed for $700k and in the top 30 isn't a lottery ticket guy. That is more like Reynaldo Lopez who was a $10k signing. The rivisionist history here to pain the White Sox as ignorant of a guy they paid top dollar for is bizarre.

He was in a 3 way tie for 31st highest bonus in his class. If you have the 31st pick in the draft, it's pretty much a lottery pick.

 

I'm not blaming the White Sox for trading him. Look at the vast majority of international guys that get his money. They don't work out. He might not either.

 

16 year olds are very hard to project. There is no way he would have been available for $700k if teams thought he would be what he's been.

 

I think Michael Ynoa got $4 million.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dick Allen

[bmags]

Probably. It goes back to what Buddy Bell said at a Soxfest seminar. Most of these signees are scouted not playing games but at these showcases where they take BP, make some throws, and sprint. He was saying you wouldn't believe some of the basic things that need to be taught to these guys after they are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, because they haven't played many games. Tatis probably had a better background actually playing because of his father.

 

Yeah last part probably true. I guess moral of the story is get these kids in instructs soon as possible

[southsider2k5]

He was in a 3 way tie for 31st highest bonus in his class. If you have the 31st pick in the draft, it's pretty much a lottery pick.

 

I'm not blaming the White Sox for trading him. Look at the vast majority of international guys that get his money. They don't work out. He might not either.

 

16 year olds are very hard to project. There is no way he would have been available for $700k if teams thought he would be what he's been.

 

I think Michael Ynoa got $4 million.

 

This is so circular.

[Dick Allen]

This is so circular.

It's really not. You are so interested in arguing with me, you have no idea what I've stated.

[southsider2k5]

It's really not. You are so interested in arguing with me, you have no idea what I've stated.

 

I don't think you know what you are saying to be honest.

[bmags]

Tatis always provides such interesting conversations /green

[Dick Allen]

I don't think you know what you are saying to be honest.

Oh I do. The White Sox gave this guy $700k. Although a decent amount, 30 others in his class got more, and 2 others received the same. The 700k in the 2015 draft would have slotted between the 84th and 85th pick, so it wasn't like he was considered by anyone a first round type talent.

 

So the White Sox have this guy they like but obviously don't see the 16 year old as a top prospect, and really, no other team did either or his signing bonus would have been higher than $700k and 32 other players in the same class wouldn't have received the same amount or more.

 

He never plays a game for the White Sox organization, and gets traded, pretty much as a lottery ticket (if you look at the White Sox other international signings, several of which were given bigger bonuses there hasn't been a lot of huge success) along with Erik Johnson for James Shields and a bunch of cash.

 

At the time of the trade, I personally didn't read one thing how Fernando Tatis Jr. was going to make Rick Hahn rue the day he made this trade. I think James Shields' performance did that.

 

Now Tatis has developed and many think he is one of the top prospects in baseball. We will see what happens. Prospects are suspects until they put up numbers in the major leagues.

 

He certainly would have helped the White Sox farm system ranking cause, but I don't think they give trophies for that.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dick Allen

[chitownsportsfan]

Occasionally when you trade 18 year old toolsy guys it comes back to bite you in the ass. Nobody could have predicted Tatis would turn into a top 30 guy. Point is to not be in desperation mode where you have to trade A ball kids to bring on a 4th starter so you can try and win 87 games. That's the whole point!

[Leonard Zelig]

This Tatis guy is going to have to hit at least 3 grand slams in one inning to really impress me.

[Rowand44]

At the time of the trade, I personally didn't read one thing how Fernando Tatis Jr. was going to make Rick Hahn rue the day he made this trade. I think James Shields' performance did that.

There were people out there that were plenty upset about Tatis, thinking he might be a pretty prospect, I certainly wasn't one of them.

 

And I don't agree with Greensox on anything but I think it's completely fair to say that the Sox didn't know what they had in Tatis. I mean, they clearly didn't.

[Dick Allen]

There were people out there that were plenty upset about Tatis, thinking he might be a pretty prospect, I certainly wasn't one of them.

 

And I don't agree with Greensox on anything but I think it's completely fair to say that the Sox didn't know what they had in Tatis. I mean, they clearly didn't.

No one did. Even the great Theo signed 9 international players to larger bonuses. The Sox gave Franklin Reyes $1.5 million. He's got a .542 OPS. Lucius Fox got $6 million. I bet you couldn't trade him straight up now.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

I still think the trade was a player light. Sale is that good.

[BlackSox13]

The trend seems to be towards the devaluing of prospects in trades. It is taking more and more guys to get big deals done now. I don't know if the trend continues or not, but it will be interesting to see. I want to say this was the first time ever that the #1 overall guy was dealt, and then you added another top 10 guy in Kopech.

1) Players salaries continue to rise 2) payroll cap + luxury tax penalties allow less wiggle room than teams once had in their team payroll 3) more GM's declaring untouchables 4) players appear to be making their debuts at a younger age 5) GM's are looking to extend players before they peak and through their peak year's to avoid paying top dollar for free agents.

 

These things lead be to believe the trend is beginning to change with more emphasis on prospects or at least keeping their top guys. Teams like the Dodgers and Yankees have shown in recent years their reluctance to trade their most coveted prospects which is the opposite of how those teams operated in the past.

 

The Sale trade was so unique that it probably was only going to happen with Boston. There were so many things that had to go right in order for the trade to happen.

 

Here's an interesting hindsight thought. If Boston drafts Fulmer instead of Benintendi, do you think the Sale trade happens? Personally, I don't think it happens because having Benintendi made it easier for Boston to part with Moncada.

 

On a separate issue all together. I give you and Balta mad props for how you both have handled the rebuild. I know you guys weren't fans of the rebuild and I think it's pretty damn cool you both stayed rather chill about it all season long instead of going off the rails. I think when Balta returned over the summer he had said he purposely stayed away so he didn't drag the board down, or something along those lines. Well done gents.