Another mass shooting, church in Texas

[Balta1701]

Nope, your tangent was ridiculous and you’re overlooking both the intent (murder vs. accident) and the type of weapons used (handguns vs. assault rifles w/ high capacity clips) in these incidents. And then you go and show your true douchey colors by calling guns a “giant unlocked penis enlarger”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with owning a normal gun for self defense, hunting, or sport. Nothing whatsoever. But people like you who think they know what’s right for everyone in this world will continue to tell us otherwise and we’ll never make progress in this area. Really sucks being a liberal and seeing your party of choice completely lose its power because the Brian Balta’s of the world scare off the more moderate base. Honestly, you’re equally as bad as the right-wing extremists.

And if "self defense" is actually a claim disproven by data, which it consistently is, then the fact that you included that is nothing but an appeal to how good it makes you feel. It's literally "I won't listen to anything else because this makes me feel powerful". You know what else makes people feel powerful? Owning an AR-15 or AK knockoff. Hence the douchy insult, which unfortunately is totally deserved. I'm going to protect my family by holding this lit stick of dynamite. No one will attack us then. And I can't foresee any issues with that.

 

Until we challenge that mindset, the willingness to look the other way because you feel better, we will not do anything about this. Because the AR-15 is the ultimate expression of that.

[Chicago White Sox]

And if "self defense" is actually a claim disproven by data, which it consistently is, then the fact that you included that is nothing but an appeal to how good it makes you feel. It's literally "I won't listen to anything else because this makes me feel powerful". You know what else makes people feel powerful? Owning an AR-15 or AK knockoff. Hence the douchy insult, which unfortunately is totally deserved. I'm going to protect my family by holding this lit stick of dynamite. No one will attack us then. And I can't foresee any issues with that.

 

Until we challenge that mindset, the willingness to look the other way because you feel better, we will not do anything about this. Because the AR-15 is the ultimate expression of that.

I have no idea what data you’re referring to or what point you’re trying to make. I own guns for hunting/sport (which I rarely use anymore) but keep none in my house so your theory that guns make me feel a certain way is odd. I’m simply speaking on behalf of people who feel they need a gun in their house for safety. Also, I have already said a normal gun was more than enough to function for home defense and assault weapons most certainly should be banned.

 

So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that owning a gun for home defense is more dangerous than not owning a gun? If so, I’d love to hear more about this data you’re referring to, because I’m struggling to grasp how responsible gun ownership within one’s household would somehow decrease their safety.

[iamshack]

Honestly, how often do people who actually own guns for "home protection" actually brandish them? I mean I get that a gun owner will say an event only needs to occur once in one's lifetime to justify owning a handgun for one's entire life, but are there statistics on this?

 

[Dick Allen]

I have no idea what data you’re referring to or what point you’re trying to make. I own guns for hunting/sport (which I rarely use anymore) but keep none in my house so your theory that guns make me feel a certain way is odd. I’m simply speaking on behalf of people who feel they need a gun in their house for safety. Also, I have already said a normal gun was more than enough to function for home defense and assault weapons most certainly should be banned.

 

So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that owning a gun for home defense is more dangerous than not owning a gun? If so, I’d love to hear more about this data you’re referring to, because I’m struggling to grasp how responsible gun ownership within one’s household would somehow decrease their safety.

In 2012, there were 20,666 suicides involving guns, 8,342 homicides involving guns, 548 accidental shooting deaths, and 259 justifiable homicides defending the home.

 

It appears that not having a gun around would be safer. almost 2 million kids live in homes with unlocked and loaded guns. Currently the stats are living in a home with a gun makes you twice as likely to be a victim of a homicide e and 3 times more likely to commit suicide.

 

I am sure there are plenty of responsible gun owners that keep their weapons locked up and in areas their kids can't get access. But wouldn't that also work against having the weapon ready to go if you needed it right away?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Almost two-thirds of the people in the U.S. population live in homes without guns, and there is no evidence that the inhabitants of these homes are at greater risk of being robbed, injured or killed by criminals compared with citizens in homes with guns. Instead, the evidence is overwhelming that a gun in the home increases the likelihood not only that a household member will be shot accidentally, but also that someone in the home will die in a suicide or homicide.

 

Link

[Soxbadger]

I have no idea what data you’re referring to or what point you’re trying to make. I own guns for hunting/sport (which I rarely use anymore) but keep none in my house so your theory that guns make me feel a certain way is odd. I’m simply speaking on behalf of people who feel they need a gun in their house for safety. Also, I have already said a normal gun was more than enough to function for home defense and assault weapons most certainly should be banned.

 

So let me ask you this, are you suggesting that owning a gun for home defense is more dangerous than not owning a gun? If so, I’d love to hear more about this data you’re referring to, because I’m struggling to grasp how responsible gun ownership within one’s household would somehow decrease their safety.

 

I think these are some stats Balta was referring to:

 

https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-p...nd#.WgPAuWhSyUk

 

People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/...evidence-shows/

 

Also in 2015 a combined analysis of 15 different studies found that people who had access to firearms at home were nearly twice as likely to be murdered as people who did not.

 

There are some graphs in the last article. but its around 1.7x more likely for a homicide in your home if you own a gun. It goes up if the gun is kept loaded.

 

Now obviously stats cant predict the future, and someone owning a gun may in fact save their life. But statistically speaking homicide is more likely in homes that have guns (and thats not getting into the higher suicide rate.)

 

The real problem is "responsible."

 

[iamshack]

I prefer dogs.

[Chicago White Sox]

In 2012, there were 20,666 suicides involving guns, 8,342 homicides involving guns, 548 accidental shooting deaths, and 259 justifiable homicides defending the home.

 

It appears that not having a gun around would be safer.

So this was the response I was waiting for. How many of those incidents involved non-responsible gun owners, people with mental illnesses, or people with violent/criminal backgrounds? Yes, certain people shouldn’t be allowed to own guns. I have said this multiple times now. But how does RockRaines owning a gun and keeping it in a safe that only he can access put his family at greater risk? If responsible, owning a gun for self defense is nothing more than an insurance policy that you will hopefully never have to use. Where I live I don’t feel one is needed, but I know plenty of people who live in areas where having a gun for home defense becomes a legitimate consideration.

[Soxbadger]

So this was the response I was waiting for. How many of those incidents involved non-responsible gun owners, people with mental illnesses, or people with violent/criminal backgrounds? Yes, certain people shouldn’t be allowed to own guns. I have said this multiple times now. But how does RockRaines owning a gun and keeping it in a safe that only he can access put his family at greater risk? If responsible, owning a gun for self defense is nothing more than an insurance policy that you will hopefully never have to use. Where I live I don’t feel one is needed, but I know plenty of people who live in areas where having a gun for home defense becomes a legitimate consideration.

 

There is no way to predict a specific fact pattern. That would be fortune telling.

 

To the best of my knowledge, all stats support the idea that owning a gun increases the chances that the people in the home will be part of a homicide or suicide. That does not mean it happens in every home, it just increases risk. Its no different than drunk driving or any other risky behavior.

 

Ultimately I think that when it comes to guns in someones home, that is more of a personal preference. If you want to take part of that risky behavior, it is not that likely it will impact me.

 

Guns outside of the home is a whole different discussion, because I could be impacted and therefore my safety should be weighed against their belief.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Soxbadger

[iamshack]

So this was the response I was waiting for. How many of those incidents involved non-responsible gun owners, people with mental illnesses, or people with violent/criminal backgrounds? Yes, certain people shouldn’t be allowed to own guns. I have said this multiple times now. But how does RockRaines owning a gun and keeping it in a safe that only he can access put his family at greater risk? If responsible, owning a gun for self defense is nothing more than an insurance policy that you will hopefully never have to use. Where I live I don’t feel one is needed, but I know plenty of people who live in areas where having a gun for home defense becomes a legitimate consideration.

Because people regularly break into their home? Come on.

[Dick Allen]

So this was the response I was waiting for. How many of those incidents involved non-responsible gun owners, people with mental illnesses, or people with violent/criminal backgrounds? Yes, certain people shouldn’t be allowed to own guns. I have said this multiple times now. But how does RockRaines owning a gun and keeping it in a safe that only he can access put his family at greater risk? If responsible, owning a gun for self defense is nothing more than an insurance policy that you will hopefully never have to use. Where I live I don’t feel one is needed, but I know plenty of people who live in areas where having a gun for home defense becomes a legitimate consideration.

The fact is not everyone is going to be responsible.not every mental illness is easily diagnosed, and some people get worse over time. Should you have to have a mental check up every year? I don't want a gun. If Rock thinks he needs one , that's his deal, it's legal. Hopefully the gun is never needed , and hopefully never fired except on a range or something. But stats show they don't necessarily make you safer.

 

Good guys shooting bad guys doesn't happen as often as good guys shooting good guys.

[Jerksticks]

So if assault rifles were banned one day, what happens to all the existing assualt rifles? Do they get grandfathered?

[iamshack]

The fact is not everyone is going to be responsible.not every mental illness is easily diagnosed, and some people get worse over time. Should you have to have a mental check up every year? I don't want a gun. If Rock thinks he needs one , that's his deal, it's legal. Hopefully the gun is never needed , and hopefully never fired except on a range or something. But stats show they don't necessarily make you safer.

 

Good guys shooting bad guys doesn't happen as often as good guys shooting good guys.

+1

[Kyyle23]

So if assault rifles were banned one day, what happens to all the existing assualt rifles? Do they get grandfathered?

 

I suppose there would be some sort of turn-in program offered, some people would do it and some would hide theirs

[Chicago White Sox]

Because people regularly break into their home? Come on.

Did you read my post? I said owning a gun for self defense is like having an insurance policy you hopefully never have to use. It’s not about expecting for your house to be broken into, it’s being prepared in the unlikely event it occurs. If I lived in an area with high crime rates I’d seriously consider having a gun at home in a locked safe. And I know people who have or do live in those types of areas and I see nothing wrong with them having a gun in their house if that makes them feel safe at night.

 

Have you ever had your house broken into? Would you prefer to have a gun or not in such a situation? This is not addressed at you, but it seems that people who have limited experience handling firearms greatly exaggerate their inherent danger. A gun is only as dangerous as the person behind the trigger. Again, I’m all for greater gun ownership restrictions as they are desperately needed, but citing a bunch of examples of gun violence involving dumb, mentally-ill, or violent people makes them sound much more dangerous than they really are. Responsible & safe gun ownership is real thing that millions of Americans are able to achieve on a daily basis. I guess I don’t get why anyone has the right to tell these people they can’t own a normal gun for their own protection.

[iamshack]

Did you read my post? I said owning a gun for self defense is like having an insurance policy you hopefully never have to use. It’s not about expecting for your house to be broken into, it’s being prepared in the unlikely event it occurs. If I lived in an area with high crime rates I’d seriously consider having a gun at home in a locked safe. And I know people who have or do live in those types of areas and I see nothing wrong with them having a gun in their house if that makes them feel safe at night.

 

Have you ever had your house broken into? Would you prefer to have a gun or not in such a situation? This is not addressed at you, but it seems that people who have limited experience handling firearms greatly exaggerate their inherent danger. A gun is only as dangerous as the person behind the trigger. Again, I’m all for greater gun ownership restrictions as they are desperately needed, but citing a bunch of examples of gun violence involving dumb, mentally-ill, or violent people makes them sound much more dangerous than they really are. Responsible & safe gun ownership is real thing that millions of Americans are able to achieve on a daily basis. I guess I don’t get why anyone has the right to tell these people they can’t own a normal gun for their own protection.

Yes, I read your post. I wouldn't have replied to it if I hadn't read it.

 

I agree with Badger; I don't really care what you do in the confines of your own home. In fact, my wife is of the opinion that she might like a gun for home protection. However, no matter the precautions, statistics do not seem to justify the risk.

 

Not many insurance policies accidentally kill your children, or your childrens' friends.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes, I read your post. I wouldn't have replied to it if I hadn't read it.

 

I agree with Badger; I don't really care what you do in the confines of your own home. In fact, my wife is of the opinion that she might like a gun for home protection. However, no matter the precautions, statistics do not seem to justify the risk.

 

Not many insurance policies accidentally kill your children, or your childrens' friends.

First, let me state that I’m only talking about in the confines of your own home. I’m strongly against people being allowed to carry guns around with them in public. Having said that, I guess I don’t agree with those statistics. Suicides & murders reflect more upon the mental state of the person pulling the trigger than the dangers of gun ownership itself. Strip those (which I don’t think should be included) and the numbers greatly change. Now go buy a biometric safe and you can basically mitigate almost all risk. IMO, if you take the necessary precautions and are responsible (which some people aren’t admittedly), guns provide almost no risk to your family.

[iamshack]

First, let me state that I’m only talking about in the confines of your own home. I’m strongly against people being allowed to carry guns around with them in public. Having said that, I guess I don’t agree with those statistics. Suicides & murders reflect more upon the mental state of the person pulling the trigger than the dangers of gun ownership itself. Strip those (which I don’t think should be included) and the numbers greatly change. Now go buy a biometric safe and you can basically mitigate almost all risk. IMO, if you take the necessary precautions and are responsible (which some people aren’t admittedly), guns provide almost no risk to your family.

Do you concede that these suicides and murders are more likely to occur with a gun in the home?

 

Do you really believe that everyone that committed murder or suicide was mentally deranged? Or perhaps drunk? Or particularly depressed that day?I find it particularly convenient that you just attribute all of those deaths to some deranged lunatic.

 

I agree that there is some percentage of gun owners, who through a combination of knowledge, training, and technological precautions (read $$), may nearly eliminate the possibility of accidental death from the possession of a firearm in the home.

 

My issue is I suspect that subset of gun owners is extremely unlikely to ever actually need a firearm in their home, due to the same combination of factors that resulted in them nearly eliminating the possibility of an accident.

[Soxbadger]

First, let me state that I’m only talking about in the confines of your own home. I’m strongly against people being allowed to carry guns around with them in public. Having said that, I guess I don’t agree with those statistics. Suicides & murders reflect more upon the mental state of the person pulling the trigger than the dangers of gun ownership itself. Strip those (which I don’t think should be included) and the numbers greatly change. Now go buy a biometric safe and you can basically mitigate almost all risk. IMO, if you take the necessary precautions and are responsible (which some people aren’t admittedly), guns provide almost no risk to your family.

 

I think the place to start is getting guns off the streets and out of public places. Once we do that we can then reassess guns at home.

 

That being said, I think guns in the home are risky. I dont think there is anyway to argue against that. Now maybe you can limit the risk to almost negligible, but anything dangerous provides risk. A knife is a risk, alcohol is a risk. But in your home, I think that some deference should be given to you to make your own risky decisions.

[ptatc]

The reason we cant have gun control is the NRA, period. A HUGE majority of Americans are in support of better gun control.

What's funny is the majority of NRA members support gun control. But like most organization, not the people at the top.

[ptatc]

I think the place to start is getting guns off the streets and out of public places. Once we do that we can then reassess guns at home.

 

That being said, I think guns in the home are risky. I dont think there is anyway to argue against that. Now maybe you can limit the risk to almost negligible, but anything dangerous provides risk. A knife is a risk, alcohol is a risk. But in your home, I think that some deference should be given to you to make your own risky decisions.

Does this include outlawing hunting and target shooting? If you're including that then there is no way I would agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having firearms for these purposes.

[Soxbadger]

Does this include outlawing hunting and target shooting? If you're including that then there is no way I would agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having firearms for these purposes.

 

I think we could come up with something that would work. You could create hunting areas where guns could be used. And when they leave those areas guns need to be unloaded and put in a case until they are back at your house. Or you could store your gun on site.

 

Could possibly have check point when entering exiting 1) to check that gun laws are in compliance and 2) to check that no poaching etc is occurring. You could create a boundary so that public is not put in harm's way.

 

That is all I really want. I don't care if people want to take their own risks, that would be hypocritical to many of my other views. I'm not s huge fan of hunting, but it's be extremely hypocritical if I wanted to out right can it. That being said there should be restrictions/quota on what can be killed. But I think most reasonable hunters aren't out there to kill species to extinction.

[Jerksticks]

I'm surprised we haven't seen anybody launching a bunch of homemade pipebombs with shrapnel into huge crowds yet.

 

I'm also surprised that out of 320+ million people living in this country we only get a shooting once a year or so. Speaks volumes to what an absolutely wonderful place this is to live. Just like anywhere else in the world we have some crazies. But our crazies barely ever do damage. Sure sucks when they do though.

 

Just mind-boggling that only 1 out of 150+ million adults per year gets pissed off enough to go out and do something horrible to random people.

 

Now gang violence, revenge, general homocide will always happen, guns or no guns. And somebody pissed off enough to want to kill 50 people will clearly be determined enough to find a way without his little ar15. Bombs is when it gets scary. Can't outlaw homemade bombs and I'm thankful nobody is doing that.

 

 

 

 

[Soxbadger]

But our crazies do more damage. More people are murdered by population in the US than comparable countries.

 

You're argument presupposes that murder in the US will always be abnormally high. I don't believe that, and I don't believe we can't make fair rules that will allow gun owners to have some things but bar unnecessary things.

 

Seems if people could be reasonable we could maybe solve some things most normal people agree on.

 

I mean Democrat/Republican, how many people are arguing for the "I want more gun deaths" platform. I get its not in vogue to actually want to solve problems, sometimes swallow your pride, maybe even sometimes lose. Most people want the same thing on most ideas, I dont believe that reasonable people are incapable of coming up with solutions for problems we agree on.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Soxbadger

[Quin]

I'm surprised we haven't seen anybody launching a bunch of homemade pipebombs with shrapnel into huge crowds yet.

 

I'm also surprised that out of 320+ million people living in this country we only get a shooting once a year or so. Speaks volumes to what an absolutely wonderful place this is to live. Just like anywhere else in the world we have some crazies. But our crazies barely ever do damage. Sure sucks when they do though.

 

Just mind-boggling that only 1 out of 150+ million adults per year gets pissed off enough to go out and do something horrible to random people.

 

Now gang violence, revenge, general homocide will always happen, guns or no guns. And somebody pissed off enough to want to kill 50 people will clearly be determined enough to find a way without his little ar15. Bombs is when it gets scary. Can't outlaw homemade bombs and I'm thankful nobody is doing that.

 

What are you talking about? We have mass shootings regularly.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/one-mass...olence-america/