Star Wars: The Last Jedi *SPOILERS* Thread

[Soxbadger]

So you're saying it would have helped a lot to get the tiniest bit of backstory of Snoke and the Knights of Ren?

 

We didn't have much backstory of the emperor and it worked because the Emperor stayed in the shadows through 4-5. He was an outside presence, only referred to in #4 and only hologram once in #5. Maybe if Snoke had been more of a shadowy presence I could have bought that, but they threw him out there as a beat up, ultra powerful force user who somehow had already gotten access to Ben Solo while he was at Luke's school. Just was too many holes in that part of the story.

 

Anyway, if "She could be something else" then stop fighting against that. She had the texts. Luke calls her a Jedi. Go with it!

 

I think because Snoke's powers are different there is more intrigue and want of a backstory. I think that the problem is that unless you spent a full movie on Snoke, no one would be really happy with his development. Its not even clear if he is a classic "Force" user. It just would require a lot of backstory, and I think going down that road would lead to more questions than answers. I think the problem is that most people went in thinking Snoke = Emperor and that he would be the final villain. Kylo usurping him was unexpected.

 

As for Rey just because she has the texts and Luke may (or may not) call her a Jedi, does not mean she is a Jedi as the term would have applied prior to Luke. I think that is what Rey ultimately will have to decide.

 

 

I didn't catch that but I assumed the First Order guards that they killed in the lightsabre duel had some training.

 

Its open ended on the people who left with Ren. They could be those knights, they could be elsewhere.

[Kyyle23]

Already there are theories into the force using slave on Canto Bight

 

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-...eory-boy-broom/

[caulfield12]

Perhaps we just need to think as the Empire as the simplistic stand-in for the crumbling Soviet Union/USSR during that same exact time period.

 

Of course, that would make America the "Resistance" and not the underdog. But it's seemingly clear they (the Empire) represent something like a mixture of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia during the Cold War period. Their relative/comparative effectiveness when you line them up against the Star Wars villains is up for debate, of course. Maybe we all need to return to Joseph Campbell and The Power of Myth...

 

Remember the iconic Apple advertisement from back in the day with the storm troopers....representing authoritarianism and conformity?

 

Subtract than initial 10 minutes from the movie and the ineptitude wouldn't be so resounding.

Edited December 19, 2017 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bmags]

Good lord

[caulfield12]

Star Wars creator George Lucas sought to make the Galactic Empire aesthetically and thematically similar to Nazi Germany and to appear to be fascist.[4] Like Nazi Germany, the Galactic Empire is a dictatorship based on rigid control of society that dissolved a previous democracy and is led by an all-powerful supreme ruler.[5] The Empire, like the Nazis, desires the creation of totalitarian order[6] and utilizes excessive force and violence to achieve their ends.[6] The name of the Empire's main soldiers, the Stormtroopers, is somewhat similar to the name given to Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA, "storm detachment") paramilitary bodyguards.[5] The visual appearance of Darth Vader in his all-black uniform combined with his devout obedience to the Emperor has allusion to the black-uniformed Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS).[5] The uniforms of Imperial military officers also bear resemblance to uniforms used in Nazi Germany as well as nineteenth-century Germany's ulans (mounted lancers)—who wore a tunic, riding breeches, and boots like the Empire's officers wear—as well as the Imperial officers' cap resembling the field caps historically worn by German and Austrian troops.[4] In addition to Nazi Germany, there was also at least one portion of the Galactic Empire that was based on the Soviet Union, which is the various military personnel and TIE Fighters are flying in formation as Palpatine arrives on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. In the commentary track for the film's DVD release, Lucas admitted that the ceremony for the Emperor's arrival was inspired by May Day military parades in the Soviet Union.[7] Lucas has also indicated in various sources that the Galactic Empire was largely derived from America during the time of the Vietnam War, and more specifically Richard Nixon's time as President, with it dating back as early as 1973 when he first started working on the first film, with his friend Walter Murch also verifying this to be the case.[8][9]

 

Palpatine's rise to power, and transforming a democracy into a dictatorship has been related to those of Julius Caesar, Augustus, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler.[10]

 

Palpatine's consolidation of power and declaring himself emperor is like the Roman political figure Octavian (later renamed Augustus), in that Octavian manipulated the Roman Senate as Palpatine did with the Galactic Senate; he legitimized authoritarian rule by saying that corruption in the Senate was hampering the powers of the head of state; he pressured the Roman Senate to give him extraordinary powers as Consul of the Republic to deal with a crisis and he falsely claimed that he would rescind those powers once the crisis was over; and, like the transition of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire, Octavian, like Palpatine, relied on his strong control over military force.[10]

Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler in black SS uniform, visiting a concentration camp. Star Wars and History published by Lucasfilm says that Darth Vader's relationship with Palpatine is like Himmler's relationship with Adolf Hitler.[10] Mary Henderson in Star Wars: The Magic of Myth contends that Darth Vader's all-black uniform and his devout obedience to the Emperor is an allusion to Nazi Germany's SS.

 

The power relationship in the Galactic Empire between Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader has been likened to that within Nazi Germany between Hitler and Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, as well as that between Joseph Stalin and the head of the NKVD Lavrentiy Beria, in that Darth Vader is a dictator's main henchman who is completely ruthless in serving his master.[10]

 

wikipedia.com

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

 

Yikes, rough day to post that joke.

[Steve9347]

Personally I think the movie was fine. I think that if I was 5 I wouldnt have such a critical take on things like "Why was Snoke not developed", when in reality the Emperor had almost 0 backstory in 4-6.

We've had, what 100 previous years of Star Wars movie history at this point? Guys with the power of Snoke don't just "pop up". While we had no backstory of the Emperor in 4-6, that was because it was a brand new universe being introduced to the world and everyone existing existed because movie.

 

The emperor had plenty of backstory in episodes 1-3 because you don't rise to such power out of thin air.

 

Snoke needed at least some explanation.

[RockRaines]

We've had, what 100 previous years of Star Wars movie history at this point? Guys with the power of Snoke don't just "pop up". While we had no backstory of the Emperor in 4-6, that was because it was a brand new universe being introduced to the world and everyone existing existed because movie.

 

The emperor had plenty of backstory in episodes 1-3 because you don't rise to such power out of thin air.

 

Snoke needed at least some explanation.

They made Snoke out to be much more powerful than the Emperor too.

[TaylorStSox]

I'd watch an entire of movie of Luke training Rey and Snoke training Ren with a subplot involving the Resistance to give Poe and Finn something to do. Maybe we could learn something more about their characters instead of just rushing through everything. We'd learn more about Ren's motivations other than the surface angsty kid. We'd learn more about Snoke. We'd learn more about Luke, the force, Rey, etc. These movies used to be character driven.

 

One of the things about Empire that made it so great was that it was character driven. We learn a lot more about the force. It leads up to an epic confrontation that Lukes loses and we loved it. Luke losing made sense and added to his character. He learned. He wasn't suddenly OP after little training. It's intersected by a subplot involving the Rebels and Empire that works, but doesn't distract from the main narrative.

Edited December 19, 2017 by TaylorStSox

[Quin]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like this film can be summed up with "That's not how The Force works!"

[Steve9347]

One of the things about Empire that made it so great was that it was character driven. We learn a lot more about the force. It leads up to an epic confrontation that Lukes loses and we loved it. Luke losing made sense and added to his character. He learned. He wasn't suddenly OP after little training. It's intersected by a subplot involving the Rebels and Empire that works, but doesn't distract from the main narrative.

So true. Everyone loves coming of age tales. Luke grew through three films while Rey was doing advanced jedi s*** immediately (this goes back to episode 7 which I've praised and mind controlling the storm trooper).

 

One of the most incredible experiences of my movie-viewing childhood was first watching Return of the Jedi and at the beginning seeing how much stronger Luke had become.

[southsider2k5]

I guess I am pretty alone in this, but I really enjoyed the movie, and don't see it as too much different from what we have always had in Star Wars.

 

Yes it is an action packed series of movies, flung all over the galaxy. It is people struggling with the grays in a black and white world, making choices that change them forever. Characters are all over the spectrum.

 

Star Wars has always had a huge cast of characters many of whom are famous for a scene or two, and no real development at all. Sure it would have been great to get to know Snoke more, as we did Darth Vader and The Emperor, but with the focus being to transition from the old generation to the new, there just isn't as much time for them. Kylo is a much more important character to get to know on the dark side. A guy like Hux has always been a joke and a cardboard cut out of guys who only live to take orders.

 

If I could change one scene, it would have been to have Leia die in space instead of forcing her way to the ship. That would have been a nice moment to leave it, I get the movie was done before then, and the idea was that she was going to be a focus in #9, but with her death, it would have been nice to change that.

 

I loved the ending scene between Luke and Leia. Obviously it was supposed to be an omen of Luke's impending death, but it ended up being poetic for Carrie Fisher's untimely death.

 

I also loved the return of the comedic moments. The originals had their goofy moments as well. I mean you don't get more than the "I love you. I know" scene. Yoda was also a fun source of lines, and always had jokes.

 

The very last scene of the movie was awesome in its simplicity, yet the inkling of hope.

[BigSqwert]

Random thoughts from someone who's not all that into the franchise:

 

- Did they not hire an editor? It felt like this was intended for a 6-part Netflix series. There were so many times I felt that it was a good point for the movie to end but it kept on going.

 

- Felt that Laura Dern and Del Toro were terrible casting choices. I prefer when they cast somewhat unknowns in this series. It seemed like they found a guy who does a pretty good impression of Del Toro to play that part.

 

- Lots of really cool scenes. I loved the battle in Snoke's chambers after Snoke was killed. The last battle sequences on that salt planet were also really stunning.

 

Overall, I thought it was ok but wish it were a bit shorter. Too many unnecessary scenes that should have been chopped.

[southsider2k5]

Random thoughts from someone who's not all that into the franchise:

 

- Did they not hire an editor? It felt like this was intended for a 6-part Netflix series. There were so many times I felt that it was a good point for the movie to end but it kept on going.

- Felt that Laura Dern and Del Toro were terrible casting choices. I prefer when they cast somewhat unknowns in this series. It seemed like they found a guy who does a pretty good impression of Del Toro to play that part.

 

- Lots of really cool scenes. I loved the battle in Snoke's chambers after Snoke was killed. The last battle sequences on that salt planet were also really stunning.

 

Overall, I thought it was ok but wish it were a bit shorter. Too many unnecessary scenes that should have been chopped.

 

Definitely true. Heck they could have ended with Leia floating in space, and I would have been good with it... even though I loved where they did end it.

[Soxbadger]

We've had, what 100 previous years of Star Wars movie history at this point? Guys with the power of Snoke don't just "pop up". While we had no backstory of the Emperor in 4-6, that was because it was a brand new universe being introduced to the world and everyone existing existed because movie.

 

The emperor had plenty of backstory in episodes 1-3 because you don't rise to such power out of thin air.

 

Snoke needed at least some explanation.

 

 

Shouldnt your complaints about Snoke be directed towards TFA? That would have been the movie to explain where New Order rose from, how Snoke went unnoticed (or how his powers developed exponentially after the fall of the Emperor.) In the new movie, there was no point in expanding Snoke or going deep into his story, because he gets killed off half way through.

 

I think TFA is getting a huge pass because it was a remake of "A New Hope" and people got to see their favorite characters from 30 years ago for the first time in a new movie.

 

Last Jedi had a much more difficult task, it had to take characters who people have dreamed about for 30 years and progress them. All the dreams of children who imagined a happy ending galaxy with Luke starting a new academy and the Jedi rising back to power were crushed. And I understand why that is hard. But the more I see people making Change.org petitions to fix Luke's demise, the more I actually appreciate what this movie did.

 

Yes it didnt explain Snoke, nor did it explain the rise of the New Order or anything else that really happened in the last 30 years. But why was that episode 8's fault? Isnt that really what episode 7 should have done?

 

 

They made Snoke out to be much more powerful than the Emperor too.

 

I dont think Snoke is supposed to be more powerful than the Emperor. They barely show any use of the force and they dont show him able to send lightning out, which is generally reserved for only the strongest force users. I think that actually most of the characters are supposed to be overall weaker in the force.

 

[Balta1701]

I dont think Snoke is supposed to be more powerful than the Emperor. They barely show any use of the force and they dont show him able to send lightning out, which is generally reserved for only the strongest force users. I think that actually most of the characters are supposed to be overall weaker in the force.

Didn't he use the lightning early in the movie with Ren? I believe he did.

[Soxbadger]

Didn't he use the lightning early in the movie with Ren? I believe he did.

 

Youre right, he did use it in this movie.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

Youre right, he didnt use it in this movie.

Are we reading each other clearly? I said he "did" use it in this movie, in TLJ. Is that what you're agreeing with? the "Didn't" is confusing me.

[Soxbadger]

Are we reading each other clearly? I said he "did" use it in this movie, in TLJ. Is that what you're agreeing with? the "Didn't" is confusing me.

 

It was a typo on my part, I corrected it.

[Balta1701]

It was a typo on my part, I corrected it.

TY, I got lost by that one.

[BigSqwert]

Another thing I question is how many jokes they used in this one. Seemed like way more than in other films in the franchise. I definitely laughed at a few but it seemed like maybe they could have taken it down a notch in that regard. I know that's pretty nitpicky.

[Quin]

Definitely true. Heck they could have ended with Leia floating in space, and I would have been good with it... even though I loved where they did end it.

 

It was like Return of the King, except instead of tying together all of the plot threads it just wanted to keep going.

 

Didn't he use the lightning early in the movie with Ren? I believe he did.

 

Don't forget the Force connection between Rey and Ren. And he was making Kylo Ren look like a fool, after TFA set Ren up as one of the most powerful we've ever seen.

[Soxbadger]

It was like Return of the King, except instead of tying together all of the plot threads it just wanted to keep going.

 

 

 

Don't forget the Force connection between Rey and Ren. And he was making Kylo Ren look like a fool, after TFA set Ren up as one of the most powerful we've ever seen.

 

How is Ren one of the most powerful force users ever? He isnt even on par with Anakin after episode 2. That puts him way behind Yoda, Dooku, etc. I would say that Kylo right now is weaker than Obi Wan at the beginning of Episode 1. Kylo lost to Rey, who is completely untrained.

 

Ren has raw power, but its no where close to any of the legendary force users. He simply looks much stronger because there are no other powerful force users to go up against. Most likely he is not even as powerful as Maul right now.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Soxbadger

[TaylorStSox]

How is Ren one of the most powerful force users ever? He isnt even on par with Anakin after episode 2. That puts him way behind Yoda, Dooku, etc. I would say that Kylo right now is weaker than Obi Wan at the beginning of Episode 1. Kylo lost to Rey, who is completely untrained.

 

Ren has raw power, but its no where close to any of the legendary force users. He simply looks much stronger because there are no other powerful force users to go up against. Most likely he is not even as powerful as Maul right now.

 

He stopped a f***ing blaster bolt mid air and held it there for minutes the first time we saw him. Both Luke and Snoke said he's the most powerful force user they've seen. Yet he gets put in a headlock by an imperial guard. The movie is so dumb and inconsistent.