2018 Democrats thread

[Dam8610]

I agree with just about everything Bernie Sanders says as long as it is not economic policy.

 

That's like saying "I like everything Jose Abreu has to offer as a football player". Bernie is entirely about economic policy.

[southsider2k5]

That's like saying "I like everything Jose Abreu has to offer as a football player". Bernie is entirely about economic policy.

 

He's the Rand Paul of the left.

[caulfield12]

Eliminating private pensions just isnt realistic with a $21 trillion deficit...look at all the state budgetary issues in places like CA, IL, KS, etc.

 

If he could develop a plan that doesnt bring about 20-30% cuts to SS, that would be great. I jest. Making community college more affordable for middle class and poor families, at least vocational and tech schools that are not for profit or largely internet based, that should be something nearly everyone can get behind.

 

And fixing ObamaCare gaps instead of junking the entire thing...everyone should be behind that as well except for the most ardent Ayn Randists.

[Dam8610]

It’s actually not like that at all. Politics aren’t as black and white as you choose to look at them. Socially he has a few great ideas and conviction towards protecting liberties. Economically he’s like a 15 year old in their first government. No relevant experience and thinks everything should be free.

 

The policies that Bernie wants to implement shouldn't be free by any means, not even Bernie thinks that. They should be paid for for society by those who have the means to pay for it. That's why taxes exist.

[Dam8610]

Bernie's economic plan is so flawed it doesn't really deserve the time of day but since it's "let's have the government have the government supply a bunch of who huge expense categories" a lot of people got behind it. He's like the 5th grader in student council who says he'll give longer recess and more root beer.

 

Yeah, those policies are so flawed they're right in line with the ones that pulled our country out of its greatest economic tailspin. Just utterly flawed to expect the wealthy to pay for the society from whence they reap all their benefits.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Dam8610

[caulfield12]

Bernie's economic plan is so flawed it doesn't really deserve the time of day but since it's "let's have the government have the government supply a bunch of who huge expense categories" a lot of people got behind it. He's like the 5th grader in student council who says he'll give longer recess and more root beer.

 

What is the return on investment and overall net benefit of all the costly US foreign engagements since Vietnam in 1965?

 

Other than benefits to the military/industrial complex and DOD? We've spent in the TRILLIONS on nuclear weapons when you would only need 100 to theoretically destroy the planet.

 

If that money was instead invested in more beneficial areas like education, health care and infrastructure...or even "foreign aid/non-military," how could the US possibly be worse off than it is today in terms of our place in the world, and the uncertain future for the "bottom 80%" of Americans?

 

Trump wants to increase defense spending by at least 10% but how no idea what he even wants to allocate those monies on or whether the various services even requested it...not to mention huge amounts of unchecked waste/inefficiency that can't be questioned because it wouldn't be "patriotic" to do so. This "blank check" without even having a plan for what to do around the world has to end. Accountability, whether it's Obama drone strikes/Benghazi OR OR OR sending troops blinding into harm's way in Africa or Yemen because Trump is too lazy to dig into the details or get second/third opinions.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, those policies are so flawed they're right in line with the ones that pulled our country out of its greatest economic tailspin. Just utterly flawed to expect the wealthy to pay for the society from whence they reap all their benefits.

Bernie's policies are to defeat Nazis? Well I guess that's worth supporting these days.

[Balta1701]

Bernie's economic plan is so flawed it doesn't really deserve the time of day but since it's "let's have the government have the government supply a bunch of who huge expense categories" a lot of people got behind it. He's like the 5th grader in student council who says he'll give longer recess and more root beer.

I agree 100% that Bernie Sanders's economic policies don't add up. For example, in the 2016 campaign when he produced his health care plan, his plan called for hundreds of billions of dollars in savings on prescription drugs per year. The amount the government was going to save on prescription drugs per year was actually higher than what the government currently spends on prescription drugs per year. It was calculations like that, things that don't make sense, that were a major part in me not voting for him.

 

That said...the 5th grader in student council who says they will get more recess and more root beer is an apt comparison of the recently passed tax package that an entire political party went along with. They insisted, with no evidence, that it would magically and dramatically increase growth at rates never before triggered after tax cuts. That it wouldn't increase the deficit or lead to inflation, and already only 3.5 months later we're talking about a balanced budget amendment again because of how much it has increased the deficit. Anyone who is a critic of Sanders's policies as not being realistic...we're passing things that are equally non-realistic, and there's an entire party supporting things that make an equal amount of sense. I will trade no more Bernie Sanders "Free root beer" deals for no more entire Republican Party "Here's more recess" deals.

[Dam8610]

Bernie's policies are to defeat Nazis? Well I guess that's worth supporting these days.

 

Pretty sure FDR had over 8 full years of governing and several policy decisions in place before the US was involved in WWII and that several of those policies massively improved conditions to set up the boom that happened during WWII. Things like regulating the banks heavily, creating job programs, and taxing the wealthy. Where else have I heard these crazy ideas?

[caulfield12]

What does the bolded have to do with Bernie Saunders?

 

The Republicans' tax plan of permanent corporate tax cuts and 90% of the tax benefits accruing to the Top 10% of taxpayers is the equivalent of Sanders' giveaways.

 

It's just another form of giveaway. At least focusing on education/training/infrastructure and evening out the benefits would create better future outcomes AND help to bridge the income/wealth gap that's threatening to tear apart American society.

 

Instead, the Republicans just exacerbated the situation...which eventually will lead to every American (the ones that can least afford cuts) to have to plan for 20-30% lower Social Security benefits and "bare bones" insurance policies for their families because we prioritized defense spending and corporate giveaways that weren't even necessary to stimulate an economy that was doing just fine already (granted, 3-3.5% growth is BETTER, but not at the cost of inflation and destroying the social safety net.)

 

Trump Tax Plan=Sanders Giveaways

 

No difference.

 

They're just two different sides of the same coin...and Democrats will reverse everything (minus the corporation cuts) that the Republicans have enacted as soon as they get back into power. (I would love to believe both parties would finally get together on immigration policy and health care to come up with compromise solutions, but it's nearly impossible with the vitriol on both sides now.)

 

There's no study of supply side economics policy that supports the idea of closing government revenue gaps...it only widens them, and puts the burden even more on future generations of taxpayers.

[Dam8610]

The Republicans' tax plan of permanent corporate tax cuts and 90% of the tax benefits accruing to the Top 10% of taxpayers is the equivalent of Sanders' giveaways.

 

It's just another form of giveaway. At least focusing on education/training/infrastructure and evening out the benefits would create better future outcomes AND help to bridge the income/wealth gap that's threatening to tear apart American society.

 

Instead, the Republicans just exacerbated the situation...which eventually will lead to every American (the ones that can least afford cuts) to have to plan for 20-30% lower Social Security benefits and "bare bones" insurance policies for their families because we prioritized defense spending and corporate giveaways that weren't even necessary to stimulate an economy that was doing just fine already (granted, 3-3.5% growth is BETTER, but not at the cost of inflation and destroying the social safety net.)

 

Trump Tax Plan=Sanders Giveaways

 

No difference.

 

If you ignore the effect of income and wealth inequality, then sure. That's a pretty important thing to ignore, though, as is the fact that Sanders had economically viable plans to pay for his policies, whereas Trump's tax cut just blew a hole in the budget to give more money to the wealthy.

 

There's no study of supply side economics policy that supports the idea of closing government revenue gaps...it only widens them, and puts the burden even more on future generations of taxpayers.

 

Actually tax cuts that broaden the revenue base would work to increase total revenue under the right conditions, but our tax system has gone well past the point of marginal utility of tax cuts into territory where further tax cuts drastically reduce total revenue.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dam8610

[Balta1701]

Pretty sure FDR had over 8 full years of governing and several policy decisions in place before the US was involved in WWII and that several of those policies massively improved conditions to set up the boom that happened during WWII. Things like regulating the banks heavily, creating job programs, and taxing the wealthy. Where else have I heard these crazy ideas?

And in 1936, in order to cut the deficit due to the election campaign, they pulled back on a number of those programs and in response the economy cratered again, re-entering a recession in the latter part of the 30s, and a recession once you've already had a collapse is a second strong punch. It was the MONSTROUS deficit spending of the second world war that was the only thing sufficient to drag the US out of that spiral. The other things - bank regulation, etc., were necessary but not sufficient.

[Balta1701]

What does the bolded have to do with Bernie Saunders?

I'm sick of people telling me that Bernie Sanders's ideas that don't work make no sense, and then in the same breath going out and voting for people who support the Ryan Budget. If you've voted for a Republican in the House in the last decade you have no right to say that Bernie Sanders has ideas that don't add up because you've already said that isn't a problem for you.

 

At least Bernie Sanders's crazy stuff would help keep people alive.

[GoSox05]

Bernie's economic plan is so flawed it doesn't really deserve the time of day but since it's "let's have the government have the government supply a bunch of who huge expense categories" a lot of people got behind it. He's like the 5th grader in student council who says he'll give longer recess and more root beer.

 

I like how the belief that people shouldn't die or go bankrupt from a lack of healthcare or that workers should be making more money is similar to giving people more root beer.

[BigSqwert]

I wonder if Laura Ingraham will comment on this...

 

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by BigSqwert

[RockRaines]

Say Joe Blow is a 25-year-old, works at Taco Bell and has $300 dollars in the bank account. All of a sudden when walking down the street he gets shot and has to go to the hospital for emergency surgery that costs 10x his net worth. What do you think happens in that situation in America?

He probably gets his life saved at the bare minimum. Then has to leave the hospital once he's stable. Then his bill that he cannot pay goes to debt collection who absolutely destroy his credit. Since he cannot be cleared for housing and cannot work, he either has to move home if he has family or crash at friends houses until he's out on the street. Because he cannot afford ongoing healthcare for his wound he probably gets an infection and dies.

[Dam8610]

Whatever. I mean you're really jumping ships. I'd rather take one topic at a time than obfuscate and bring up tangents when your preferred person/idea has a flaw. I just don't know why that would apply to me. It's not like you can't have an opinion on one side of the aisle because the other side of the aisle has a different problem on another issue. I've never voted for a Republican in the house, so again, not sure of the relevance here. Seems like you're just pivoting and defending your "team."

 

 

I was referring free college and health care. We live in a society that is changing and people just want everything free and provided for them. Bernie Sanders has some good ideas but his allure is mostly to people who either a.) aren't doing that great themselves or b.) don't believe others can provide for themselves.

 

College debt is such an issue because government got involved. Making it free would ruin the value of the degree and rich people would still find away to have their children separate themselves through spending money.

 

Making college free hasn't ruined the value of degrees in Canada, Europe, or even Singapore. All it's done in those places is make the workforce more competitive on a global level. And if you're concerned about the wealthy separating their children with money, tax then to the point that they can't, and use that money to pay for free college. Two birds, one stone.

 

Who is going bankrupt through healthcare? The people who get screwed in healthcare isn't the rich or the poor it is the middle class. What do you think when someone ends up in the hospital and can't afford their bills? Do you have any industry experience or understanding of what happens in that case? Say Joe Blow is a 25-year-old, works at Taco Bell and has $300 dollars in the bank account. All of a sudden when walking down the street he gets shot and has to go to the hospital for emergency surgery that costs 10x his net worth. What do you think happens in that situation in America?

 

You're right, the middle class needs single payer more than anyone else. Perhaps you should be the one to tell them to stop voting against their own interests?

[Dam8610]

I like how the belief that people shouldn't die or go bankrupt from a lack of healthcare or that workers should be making more money is similar to giving people more root beer.

 

Well, teachers in Oklahoma who don't want to live in poverty are like teenagers who want a better car, so...

[GoSox05]

Poor people = Lazy and want everything for free.

 

Rich people = hard working and everything is being stole from them.

 

 

 

[illinilaw08]

Whatever. I mean you're really jumping ships. I'd rather take one topic at a time than obfuscate and bring up tangents when your preferred person/idea has a flaw. I just don't know why that would apply to me. It's not like you can't have an opinion on one side of the aisle because the other side of the aisle has a different problem on another issue. I've never voted for a Republican in the house, so again, not sure of the relevance here. Seems like you're just pivoting and defending your "team."

 

 

I was referring free college and health care. We live in a society that is changing and people just want everything free and provided for them. Bernie Sanders has some good ideas but his allure is mostly to people who either a.) aren't doing that great themselves or b.) don't believe others can provide for themselves.

 

College debt is such an issue because government got involved. Making it free would ruin the value of the degree and rich people would still find away to have their children separate themselves through spending money.

 

Who is going bankrupt through healthcare? The people who get screwed in healthcare isn't the rich or the poor it is the middle class. What do you think when someone ends up in the hospital and can't afford their bills? Do you have any industry experience or understanding of what happens in that case? Say Joe Blow is a 25-year-old, works at Taco Bell and has $300 dollars in the bank account. All of a sudden when walking down the street he gets shot and has to go to the hospital for emergency surgery that costs 10x his net worth. What do you think happens in that situation in America?

 

Bankruptcy attorney here. Since the ACA, a lot fewer people are going bankrupt because of medical bills (bankruptcy filings generally are down 50% since the ACA -http://time.com/money/4765443/obamacare-bankruptcy-decline/ - that's not all traceable to the ACA - some of it is that people with majority student loan debt don't get a benefit from a bankruptcy)! That's a good thing!

 

On college debt, disagreed. Student loans are an issue because (a) the cost of college has skyrocketed; (b) student loans are not subject to discharge in bankruptcy; and © a college degree is a requirement for an extremely expanded category of jobs. In my parents' generation, you could be a secretary without a college degree. Now, those jobs require a degree.

 

Making college free doesn't ruin the value of the degree. Making college free doesn't all of a sudden mean that colleges have to accept anyone that wants in. Making college free does, however, reduce crippling debt burdens on students - debts that are unique in that you can never, ever get rid of them - regardless of their ability to pay 10 years after college. In a consumption based economy, people leaving school without massive student loan debt is good! They have more money to pump back into the economy!

 

 

[illinilaw08]

If that's how you really feel. It's a bit more nuanced than that though.

 

You said, "Most people in this country know whether they are going to be someone who gives to society or takes from society."

 

Please explain the nuance in that statement...

[caulfield12]

True or false, corporations are more or less likely to fund pensions/401k’s and health insurance today...compared to, let’s say, 1982?

 

And why is that the case...we now live in a country where corporations are treated as “people” whose profitability is put over and above what’s good for the greatest number of Americans.

 

It doesn’t take a Michael Moore documentary to understand other countries have far better prison/reform/rehab systems, health care, workers’ rights and benefits (compare USA to the rest of the world on vacation time allotted or maternity leave), infrastructure, public education/nutrition...systems.

 

For 80% of Americans, and their children...the American Dream is failing, or at the very least fading. Bernie Sanders and Trump are actually more alike on many areas than most would like to admit, but neither vision is financially feasible with the amount of overhanging Federal debt we are leaving future generations saddled with. For nearly 40 years, everyone has lived beyond their means because of cheaper global wages temporarily providing more affordable consumer goods (see Wal-Mart/Amazon) and McMansions they couldn’t afford. But the bill is coming due soon. Whether it’s health care or retirement affordability, the profitability of the banks and insurance/Big Pharma is more important than Rust Belt factory workers, Heartland-based small farmers or Appalachian coal miners.

 

Of course, simply blaming women/immigrants/minorities, though, isn’t a positive step towards realistically solving the problem...but it was enough to win one election through the quirkiest or curcumstances.

[caulfield12]

You said, "Most people in this country know whether they are going to be someone who gives to society or takes from society."

 

Please explain the nuance in that statement...

 

In that argument, Trump has “given” a lot more to society than he has taken. That’s where the two political sides would beg to differ.

 

It’s the blah people who are taking and taking and taking...and, in this zero sum game, the losses are coming directly off the backs of white (mostly males) people.

 

Benefits are accruing unfairly to illegal immigrants, women (promoted over men in the workplace), lgbtq, pretty much all minorities except for most Asians (Chinese, Indian, etc.). Muslims. Affirmative action instead of merit-based scholarships. Etc.

[caulfield12]

Bankruptcy attorney here. Since the ACA, a lot fewer people are going bankrupt because of medical bills (bankruptcy filings generally are down 50% since the ACA -http://time.com/money/4765443/obamacare-bankruptcy-decline/ - that's not all traceable to the ACA - some of it is that people with majority student loan debt don't get a benefit from a bankruptcy)! That's a good thing!

 

On college debt, disagreed. Student loans are an issue because (a) the cost of college has skyrocketed; (b) student loans are not subject to discharge in bankruptcy; and © a college degree is a requirement for an extremely expanded category of jobs. In my parents' generation, you could be a secretary without a college degree. Now, those jobs require a degree.

 

Making college free doesn't ruin the value of the degree. Making college free doesn't all of a sudden mean that colleges have to accept anyone that wants in. Making college free does, however, reduce crippling debt burdens on students - debts that are unique in that you can never, ever get rid of them - regardless of their ability to pay 10 years after college. In a consumption based economy, people leaving school without massive student loan debt is good! They have more money to pump back into the economy!

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5567...ort+-+FINAL.pdf

 

Can we all agree that the majority of online and for profit universities, who target veterans...the poor...and non-traditional students (like working single mothers,) have been financial disasters for many Americans? And that the exorbidant tuition fees often arent backed up by reasonable employment opportunities in this ever-changing economy?

[Dam8610]

A.) Talking about "Europe" as a whole is kind of expansive. How many immigrants are going to Europe to study full time as opposed to the USA? Singapore is one of the most conservatively spending governments in the world and it's flourishing so not sure how that makes your point. I don't believe in stealing money from people who are successful. I aspire to be one of them one day but I have plenty of time before I pay off my student loans and everything else.

 

B.) I don't tell people what to do. Even if I told them not to vote for ACA, I doubt it would have made a difference. Most people in this country know whether they are going to be someone who gives to society or takes from society. Those on the latter hear "free" or "universal" and their mind is made up.

 

A) Singapore is flourishing because they were the first country in the world to make college education free. How does that make my point?

 

B) The "makers and takers" myth is designed to get you to look away from the real problem of the wealthy hoarding wealth like Smaug the Defiler and instead blame poor people's problems on effort, when the reality is that no one achieves when they don't know where their next meal is coming from and can't stay warm or safe.