2018 Democrats thread

[GoSox05]

What's the status of interracial and gay marriage in this country? What's the status of minority and female voting rights? What's the status of abortion rights? What's the status of the strikes for teacher pay in places like OK, WV, AZ, etc?

 

You have a very skewed world-view my friend. Just because we're still fighting for social justice doesn't mean we haven't been winning those battles throughout history - including very recently. To say they don't matter to you is the height of white privilege. You are the prototypical Bernie Bro, and you are why a Bernie candidacy would be disastrous for the Democratic Party in 2020. It would hand Trump or Pence another term easily. But like you said, you'd rather have them in office if it means having a better chance of replacing them with a progressive afterwards, no matter how much damage they do to people who don't have the same privilege you do. Fortunately, you and I get to avoid most of the fallout from a Trump or a Presidency. Aren't we lucky? The difference is, I want to fight to fix that imbalance in the system, and you're fine with it because it doesn't hurt YOU, and you think it'll help you achieve your economic agenda ... at some point.

 

That's pretty messed up, man.

 

 

Do you think people on the left don't support gay marriage and interracial marriage? Who do you think was at the front of that movement back when centrists were bringing in the defense of marriage act.

 

Strikes. Teachers striking is that what you think the left isn't supporting? You better look up the history of wildcat strikes.

 

 

Also, the continued use of the word "Bernie Bro" is just something I don't understand.

 

[Reddy]

Do you think people on the left don't support gay marriage and interracial marriage? Who do you think was at the front of that movement back when centrists were bringing in the defense of marriage act.

 

Strikes. Teachers striking is that what you think the left isn't supporting? You better look up the history of wildcat strikes.

 

 

Also, the continued use of the word "Bernie Bro" is just something I don't understand.

Dam said social issues don't matter to him. That's what I was addressing. And yes, the Bernie wing prioritizes economic policy over social policy, which is one of the reasons they struggle with minorities and marginalized communities.

 

(As for DOMA/DADT/etc, Clinton did the best he could on that issue at that time, in that political environment. Activists kept working, and eventually, we got to a much better place. But progress is progress and it happens one stepping stone at a time)

[caulfield12]

What is the opposite of a Bernie Bro in the Democratic Party?

 

Ossoff? Lamb? Cheri Bustos? Feinstein?

 

There’s one problem with all this reasonableness and pragmatism...it’s not coming from the GOP in return. Only obstructionism, even against their own party. That was essentially their main philosophy for 8 years.

 

The Democratic Party needs leaders who will fight for the middle class. Period. Somehow, Trump convinced those voters he would/could do more for them than Hillary. How was that even possible?

 

[GoSox05]

Dam said social issues don't matter to him. That's what I was addressing. And yes, the Bernie wing prioritizes economic policy over social policy, which is one of the reasons they struggle with minorities and marginalized communities.

 

(As for DOMA/DADT/etc, Clinton did the best he could on that issue at that time, in that political environment. Activists kept working, and eventually, we got to a much better place. But progress is progress and it happens one stepping stone at a time)

 

 

The left doesn't "prioritize" economic issues over social. You also seem to think they don't have anything to we each other. The idea that one issue dosen't affect the other is ridiculous.

 

 

[Reddy]

What is the opposite of a Bernie Bro in the Democratic Party?

 

Ossoff? Lamb? Cheri Bustos? Feinstein?

 

There?€™s one problem with all this reasonableness and pragmatism...it?€™s not coming from the GOP in return. Only obstructionism, even against their own party. That was essentially their main philosophy for 8 years.

 

The Democratic Party needs leaders who will fight for the middle class. Period. Somehow, Trump convinced those voters he would/could do more for them than Hillary. How was that even possible?

I agree with you. The GOP are masters of simplistic, easily digestible misinformation campaigns. If we want to shift to a discussion about what the Democratic Party can do better, I'm happy to have that talk. There are a number of things. We message terribly, there's little cohesion, and because we're a party of warring ideologies, finding that cohesive message is incredibly difficult. Fortunately, the party has already started implementing a lot of good changes within the past year. Ellison and Perez are doing one hell of a job. Our performance in these specials is a testament to that.

 

But I still would like a response from Dam regarding his prioritization of issues. (Also, a Bernie Bro is usually a straight white guy who prioritizes economics over social justice and doesn't recognize the privilege he has that allows for that perspective. He uses terms like "neoliberal" "corporate shill" and "oligarchy" far too much and incorrectly. He also often criticizes Hillary's personality and equates her with Trump in attacks that he may not recognize as sexist but... they are.)

Edited April 18, 2018 by Reddy

[Reddy]

The left doesn't "prioritize" economic issues over social. You also seem to think they don't have anything to we each other. The idea that one issue dosen't affect the other is ridiculous.

Of course they're connected. But scroll back. Dam literally said he doesn't care about social issues. It's that to which I'm responding.

[southsider2k5]

Also, are you a straight white dude? Just wondering because if so, your "no social issues matter to me" statement is....... pretty indicative if the problem with the Bernie wing.

 

And this is why the Democratic Party continues to flounder. Your credentials are apparently directly tied to your race.

[southsider2k5]

What is the opposite of a Bernie Bro in the Democratic Party?

 

Ossoff? Lamb? Cheri Bustos? Feinstein?

 

There’s one problem with all this reasonableness and pragmatism...it’s not coming from the GOP in return. Only obstructionism, even against their own party. That was essentially their main philosophy for 8 years.

 

The Democratic Party needs leaders who will fight for the middle class. Period. Somehow, Trump convinced those voters he would/could do more for them than Hillary. How was that even possible?

 

The opposite would be the Clinton wing which sits and waits for things to be politically palatable before adopting them as policy goals, and then forgetting that you spent a long period of time being against them.

[Reddy]

And this is why the Democratic Party continues to flounder. Your credentials are apparently directly tied to your race.

Your credentials aren't, but your privilege is. I know this isn't a winning argument for Democrats to make nationally, so I would never use it in a campaign setting. But that doesn't make it untrue.

[Reddy]

The opposite would be the Clinton wing which sits and waits for things to be politically palatable before adopting them as policy goals, and then forgetting that you spent a long period of time being against them.

Um. Yeah. Basically. Let activists do their job and politicians do theirs. That's how things actually get accomplished. Activist politicians usually lose their elections. At that point what good are they?

[caulfield12]

Here’s the thing.

 

The Dems are losing the social issues/political correctness battle. Identity politics and obfuscation/diversionary tactics favor the Trump wing...while DACA itself, those particular individuals, are “popular” or poll well, broader immigration policies in general are not.

 

If it’s about kitchen table economics, trade, wealth disparity, rights and protections for women, protection of Medicare/Social Security (safety net), the environment, the $1 trillion plus deficits, the Dems SHOULD clean up.

 

The tax cuts were surrendered by the GOP as a talking point in PA by the end of that race. That was supposed to be their ace in the hole to save an electoral bloodbath.

 

The only thing that can save the GOP would be a miraculous breakthrough in North Korea or on the foreign policy side in general, and their strategy is so scattershot and lacking in cohesion that it’s actually hard to imagine not screwing any negotiation up.

 

[caulfield12]

Um. Yeah. Basically. Let activists do their job and politicians do theirs. That's how things actually get accomplished. Activist politicians usually lose their elections. At that point what good are they?

 

Barack Obama literally was a community activist on the South Side.

[Reddy]

Here’s the thing.

 

The Dems are losing the social issues/political correctness battle. Identity politics and obfuscation/diversionary tactics favor the Trump wing...while DACA itself, those particular individuals, are “popular” or poll well, broader immigration policies in general are not.

 

If it’s about kitchen table economics, trade, wealth disparity, rights and protections for women, protection of Medicare/Social Security (safety net), the environment, the $1 trillion plus deficits, the Dems SHOULD clean up.

 

The tax cuts were surrendered by the GOP as a talking point in PA by the end of that race. That was supposed to be their ace in the hole to save an electoral bloodbath.

 

The only thing that can save the GOP would be a miraculous breakthrough in North Korea or on the foreign policy side in general, and their strategy is so scattershot and lacking in cohesion that it’s actually hard to imagine not screwing any negotiation up.

I agree with all of this.

[Reddy]

Barack Obama literally was a community activist on the South Side.

He was a community organizer. I'm a community organizer. Yes, he was an activist in the way I'm an activist, but when it came to politics he was pragmatic and didn't try to break the mold. He was not an activist as a politician. He wasn't going to move on gay marriage until Uncle Joe forced him to by making a public statement of support for it.

[southsider2k5]

Your credentials aren't, but your privilege is. I know this isn't a winning argument for Democrats to make nationally, so I would never use it in a campaign setting. But that doesn't make it untrue.

 

Yet you are telling someone that they can't be qualified on a topic because of their race.

[Reddy]

Yet you are telling someone that they can't be qualified on a topic because of their race.

How on earth have you come to that conclusion? Lol

 

I've made no comments regarding anyone's qualification to do anything. Please quote for me where I made the argument you're suggesting here. As far as I'm aware, I mentioned his race, gender, and sexual orientation as an explanation for why he doesn't care about social issues (they don't affect him).

[southsider2k5]

How on earth have you come to that conclusion? Lol

 

I've made no comments regarding anyone's qualification to do anything. Please quote for me where I made the argument you're suggesting here. As far as I'm aware, I mentioned his race, gender, and sexual orientation as an explanation for why he doesn't care about social issues (they don't affect him).

 

That is just lame. You bring it up in that context, but then pretend you didn't mean exactly what you meant when you get called out on it? If it wasn't something you were saying, and didn't believe, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. That is just trash.

[Reddy]

That is just lame. You bring it up in that context, but then pretend you didn't mean exactly what you meant when you get called out on it? If it wasn't something you were saying, and didn't believe, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. That is just trash.

Lord. You don't get to decide what I meant. I didn't say that. I didn't use those words. I meant EXACTLY what I said. You don't get to magically add some other contextual meaning because you don't like me. It's absolutely ridiculous that you're always inferring the worst based on your own personal biases. Show me where I said what you're saying I said. If you can't, then stop making up bulls***.

 

And ease off on the attacks, bud.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Reddy

[southsider2k5]

Lord. You don't get to decide what I meant. I didn't say that. I didn't use those words. I meant EXACTLY what I said. You don't get to magically add some other contextual meaning because you don't like me. It's absolutely ridiculous that you're always inferring the worst based on your own personal biases. Show me where I said what you're saying I said. If you can't, then stop making up bulls***.

 

And ease off on the attacks, bud.

 

Quit asking people about their race and then pretending it didn't mean anything. It really is that simple.

[Dam8610]

You actually responded to none of my points. You created a straw man instead. Care to actually respond? Or are you sticking to the logical fallacy game?

 

I responded to your 80% comment, care to actually respond to that argument? I'll rephrase here for ease of response: If the 21% of air you're not getting is oxygen, does it make you "ignorant" or "selfish" to seek oxygen by any means necessary? Also, my race isn't nor should it be relevant to the points I'm making, so I instead choseto take your other post as an opportunity to present the actual problems with your strategy. Care to address that?

 

What's the status of interracial and gay marriage in this country? What's the status of minority and female voting rights? What's the status of abortion rights? What's the status of the strikes for teacher pay in places like OK, WV, AZ, etc?

 

You have a very skewed world-view my friend. Just because we're still fighting for social justice doesn't mean we haven't been winning those battles throughout history - including very recently. To say they don't matter to you is the height of white privilege. You are the prototypical Bernie Bro, and you are why a Bernie candidacy would be disastrous for the Democratic Party in 2020. It would hand Trump or Pence another term easily. But like you said, you'd rather have them in office if it means having a better chance of replacing them with a progressive afterwards, no matter how much damage they do to people who don't have the same privilege you do. Fortunately, you and I get to avoid most of the fallout from a Trump or a Presidency. Aren't we lucky? The difference is, I want to fight to fix that imbalance in the system, and you're fine with it because it doesn't hurt YOU, and you think it'll help you achieve your economic agenda ... at some point.

 

That's pretty messed up, man.

 

Oh look, assumptions about my race and attacks based on it. That's certainly not ad hominem, right Reddy? Yippee we got to the point where we're as progressive on these issues as the rest of the world, and all it cost us was our economic freedom. What a trade! So, again I'll posit, why is it that almost every country in Europe has a better quality of life AND similar or more progressive social policy than the United States?

 

Dam said social issues don't matter to him. That's what I was addressing. And yes, the Bernie wing prioritizes economic policy over social policy, which is one of the reasons they struggle with minorities and marginalized communities.

 

(As for DOMA/DADT/etc, Clinton did the best he could on that issue at that time, in that political environment. Activists kept working, and eventually, we got to a much better place. But progress is progress and it happens one stepping stone at a time)

 

Now you're outright lying about me. I said social issues do not qualify as "key" to me. That's because we've given economic issues to the conservatives for so long in trade for social issues that it's approaching the point where if we don't fight back on economic issues, they're going to be able to take the little social progress we've made with their economic gains. Social issues are absolutely important to me, that's why I feel they need to take a backseat to economic issues for a while. A more level economic playing field will help everything, even social justice issues, as I've given you an example of before on deprivatization of prisons.

 

I agree with you. The GOP are masters of simplistic, easily digestible misinformation campaigns. If we want to shift to a discussion about what the Democratic Party can do better, I'm happy to have that talk. There are a number of things. We message terribly, there's little cohesion, and because we're a party of warring ideologies, finding that cohesive message is incredibly difficult. Fortunately, the party has already started implementing a lot of good changes within the past year. Ellison and Perez are doing one hell of a job. Our performance in these specials is a testament to that.

 

But I still would like a response from Dam regarding his prioritization of issues. (Also, a Bernie Bro is usually a straight white guy who prioritizes economics over social justice and doesn't recognize the privilege he has that allows for that perspective. He uses terms like "neoliberal" "corporate shill" and "oligarchy" far too much and incorrectly. He also often criticizes Hillary's personality and equates her with Trump in attacks that he may not recognize as sexist but... they are.)

 

You already have it. "Not priority" means needs to be addressed less.

 

Of course they're connected. But scroll back. Dam literally said he doesn't care about social issues. It's that to which I'm responding.

 

I'd really appreciate if you'd stop lying about me. Quote a post where I said those exact words, or stop misconstruing "does not qualify as a 'key' issue you me" to be mean that nonsense.

[Reddy]

Okay I'm gonna learn from my history here at ST and let this go, even though I stand behind every single comment I've made 100%.

[caulfield12]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/politics/dem...rump/index.html

 

Dem operatives trying to find the right (type and amount of) messaging on Trump for the midterms

[Reddy]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/politics/dem...rump/index.html

 

Dem operatives trying to find the right (type and amount of) messaging on Trump for the midterms

 

Very little, if any, is the correct call in most places. Politics is local.

[caulfield12]

Very little, if any, is the correct call in most places. Politics is local.

 

Except for the Jones race, yes.

 

Ossoff might even have won had they kept the race against Handel from becoming the liberal cause du jour.

 

Lamb did a great job of keeping the national influence at arm's length, with the exception of Biden, one of the few DEMS who can speak effectively to constituents in that particular district.

 

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/need-stronger-ca...-090041374.html

We need stronger candidates, not stronger political parties

Edited April 19, 2018 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/04/19/trumpism-without-trump-218013

an article that all Dems need to read