2018 Democrats thread

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I still think you're mistaking SUPPORTING those views versus simply not prioritizing them compared to other issues. A number of women and minorities did vote for the guy, so clearly not ALL of them voted for him while also supporting white male dominance policies.

I'm exposed to a lot of blue collar Trump supporters as part of my job. A lot of union guys, guys that work on nukes, guys that work for public utilities. Inevitably politics come up and i'd say a good majority of them are Trump supporters for two simple reasons - (1) they've bought into the nonsense that he's changing Washington and (2) they think he (and Republicans generally) do better to protect/increase their income. They all feel Dems are way too concerned with social issues that they're never personally exposed to. Rights of the LGBT, illegal immigrants, etc. Those issues just aren't as important to them. 

 

 

Right, there's a distinction there in what may have motivated that person to vote.

But ultimately, you get the whole package. And Trump's whole package includes an awful lot of white christian supremacy. So while that may not have been what got those people to vote, that is still the package they voted for. 

[StrangeSox]

hey speaking of how great neoliberal economic principles work for the masses

 

sure, workers are passing out in his warehouses and have to get food stamps because they're paid so little, but Bezos can't think of any possible way to spend his vast wealth besides "space travel"

Edited May 1, 2018 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

Nationalize Amazon.

 

 

[Reddy]

2 hours ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I still think you're mistaking SUPPORTING those views versus simply not prioritizing them compared to other issues. A number of women and minorities did vote for the guy, so clearly not ALL of them voted for him while also supporting white male dominance policies.

I'm exposed to a lot of blue collar Trump supporters as part of my job. A lot of union guys, guys that work on nukes, guys that work for public utilities. Inevitably politics come up and i'd say a good majority of them are Trump supporters for two simple reasons - (1) they've bought into the nonsense that he's changing Washington and (2) they think he (and Republicans generally) do better to protect/increase their income. They all feel Dems are way too concerned with social issues that they're never personally exposed to. Rights of the LGBT, illegal immigrants, etc. Those issues just aren't as important to them. 

 

 

This is all accurate. 

[Dam8610]

23 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Nationalize Amazon.

 

 

And Facebook.

[Dam8610]

5 minutes ago, Reddy said:

This is all accurate. 

Which is why Democrats should be working vigorously to change perception #2. They don't seem to care, though.

[Soxbadger]

2 hours ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I still think you're mistaking SUPPORTING those views versus simply not prioritizing them compared to other issues. A number of women and minorities did vote for the guy, so clearly not ALL of them voted for him while also supporting white male dominance policies.

I'm exposed to a lot of blue collar Trump supporters as part of my job. A lot of union guys, guys that work on nukes, guys that work for public utilities. Inevitably politics come up and i'd say a good majority of them are Trump supporters for two simple reasons - (1) they've bought into the nonsense that he's changing Washington and (2) they think he (and Republicans generally) do better to protect/increase their income. They all feel Dems are way too concerned with social issues that they're never personally exposed to. Rights of the LGBT, illegal immigrants, etc. Those issues just aren't as important to them. 

 

 

 

And therein lies the struggle. Social issues many times mean fighting for someone else. Many times it means that you give up your advantages for the better of others. Those are never easy sells. 

The income part of the equation is difficult because it requires people to better understand economics. "They took our jobs" is catchy, it makes sense. Trying to convince people that more immigrants will mean that eventually their social status will improve is less intuitive. The same can be said about universal health care etc.

At the end of the day,  we all have to make decisions on the type of person we want to be and what we want to support. That is the gift and the curse of our system. I want to be someone who can say that I did what I could to make things fair. That I didnt try to push my advantages further, that I didnt try and create rules to hurt others and to help myself. That I played the game fair.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few elections. Will the Republican party take back its soul? Or is this who they are now?

I really cant tell. I really hope that Republicans stand up and say this type of bullshit cant stand, even if it means that they lose an election cycle or two. Because if they dont, it will only get worse and its going to end poorly for most Americans, irrespective of their race/religion/whatever. 

Sometimes the captains own crew needs to be the ones to tell the world that the captain is unfit to lead.

[Dam8610]

6 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

And therein lies the struggle. Social issues many times mean fighting for someone else. Many times it means that you give up your advantages for the better of others. Those are never easy sells. 

The income part of the equation is difficult because it requires people to better understand economics. "They took our jobs" is catchy, it makes sense. Trying to convince people that more immigrants will mean that eventually their social status will improve is less intuitive. The same can be said about universal health care etc.

At the end of the day,  we all have to make decisions on the type of person we want to be and what we want to support. That is the gift and the curse of our system. I want to be someone who can say that I did what I could to make things fair. That I didnt try to push my advantages further, that I didnt try and create rules to hurt others and to help myself. That I played the game fair.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few elections. Will the Republican party take back its soul? Or is this who they are now?

I really cant tell. I really hope that Republicans stand up and say this type of bullshit cant stand, even if it means that they lose an election cycle or two. Because if they dont, it will only get worse and its going to end poorly for most Americans, irrespective of their race/religion/whatever. 

Sometimes the captains own crew needs to be the ones to tell the world that the captain is unfit to lead.

 I'll believe Republicans will cede power for the betterment of themselves and the country when I see it. They've jumped down the Trump rabbit hole, and they'll ride it as far as the electorate tells them is acceptable.

[GoSox05]

8 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

And therein lies the struggle. Social issues many times mean fighting for someone else. Many times it means that you give up your advantages for the better of others. Those are never easy sells. 

The income part of the equation is difficult because it requires people to better understand economics. "They took our jobs" is catchy, it makes sense. Trying to convince people that more immigrants will mean that eventually their social status will improve is less intuitive. The same can be said about universal health care etc.

At the end of the day,  we all have to make decisions on the type of person we want to be and what we want to support. That is the gift and the curse of our system. I want to be someone who can say that I did what I could to make things fair. That I didnt try to push my advantages further, that I didnt try and create rules to hurt others and to help myself. That I played the game fair. 

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few elections. Will the Republican party take back its soul? Or is this who they are now?

I really cant tell. I really hope that Republicans stand up and say this type of bullshit cant stand, even if it means that they lose an election cycle or two. Because if they dont, it will only get worse and its going to end poorly for most Americans, irrespective of their race/religion/whatever. 

Sometimes the captains own crew needs to be the ones to tell the world that the captain is unfit to lead.

They've been like this for quite some time. 

[Soxbadger]

22 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

 I'll believe Republicans will cede power for the betterment of themselves and the country when I see it. They've jumped down the Trump rabbit hole, and they'll ride it as far as the electorate tells them is acceptable.

 

I cant predict the future. What I can say is that if people keep acting like there is nothing that the other side can do, that they are all bad whatever (and this goes for both sides) then nothing is going to be accomplished. Ive seen some Republican's speak out about Trump. There are good people who are Republicans, sometimes you have to focus on the positive instead of berating them all the time. That just causes people to dig in their heals and defend.

 

21 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

They've been like this for quite some time. 

 

Some of them, but not all of them. Trump is a dramatic break from every other Republican president. There is no denying this. A while ago I posted that Trump would be the best thing to ever happen to Bush's legacy, and its true. Because now people are actually seeing what a bad guy is and that is a distinction people need to stop forgetting. 

[GoSox05]

2 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

I cant predict the future. What I can say is that if people keep acting like there is nothing that the other side can do, that they are all bad whatever (and this goes for both sides) then nothing is going to be accomplished. Ive seen some Republican's speak out about Trump. There are good people who are Republicans, sometimes you have to focus on the positive instead of berating them all the time. That just causes people to dig in their heals and defend.

 

 

Some of them, but not all of them. Trump is a dramatic break from every other Republican president. There is no denying this. A while ago I posted that Trump would be the best thing to ever happen to Bush's legacy, and its true. Because now people are actually seeing what a bad guy is and that is a distinction people need to stop forgetting.  

Bush and Reagan were a million times worse than Trump.  Bush is responsible for a million dead people in Iraq and Reagan should have died in the Hague.  That's just based on their foreign policy, not to mention their cruel and destructive policies here.

Although it is early for Trump.  He still has time spill plenty of blood.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, Bush tried to push for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. He tortured people and spied on Americans illegally. His tax policy was the same as Trump's. He tried to make Harriet Miers a supreme court justice.

Trump is just using a bullhorn and no sense of shame for the same stuff the GOP has been doing forever.

[Soxbadger]

33 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Bush and Reagan were a million times worse than Trump.  Bush is responsible for a million dead people in Iraq and Reagan should have died in the Hague.  That's just based on their foreign policy, not to mention their cruel and destructive policies here.

Although it is early for Trump.  He still has time spill plenty of blood.

 

29 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Yeah, Bush tried to push for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. He tortured people and spied on Americans illegally. His tax policy was the same as Trump's. He tried to make Harriet Miers a supreme court justice.

Trump is just using a bullhorn and no sense of shame for the same stuff the GOP has been doing forever.

 

Its ideas like this that are going to make it so that nothing changes. Reagan was a million times worse? Bush was responsible for Iraq?

How can you expect to have a legitimate conversation with Republicans, if you really believe what you wrote?

Im not going to touch the Reagan stuff, because if youre going to make a statement like that, the onus is on you to prove what you said. 

 

As for Bush. Last I checked in 2003 congress authorized the Iraq Resolution. Not saying its right or wrong, but its no different than any other conflict that the US has been involved in (outside of WWII.) 

Bush supported Harriet Miers, so what? He is the President, he can support whoever he wants. The difference is that Bush didnt go and change the rules to get her approved, he didnt undermine our entire system to push through his candidate. He played by the rules. The rules are (for better or for worse) the President nominates a SC candidate. I dont necessarily think Miers is the best candidate, but Bush was well within his authority to do it. 

Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. Again, something I dont believe in. But other people are allowed to have different beliefs. In fact you Bush actually supported civil unions; https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/politics/campaign/bush-says-his-party-is-wrong-to-oppose-gay-civil-unions.html

 

Quote

"I view the definition of marriage different from legal arrangements that enable people to have rights. And I strongly believe that marriage ought to be defined as between a union between a man and a woman. Now, having said that, states ought to be able to have the right to pass laws that enable people to be able to have rights like others."

 

(edit)

Well I lost like half the post due to how much I hate these new boards and formatting, but the rest of the post was basically.

 

If you really believe that Bush was a million times worse than Trump, you lose all credibility in the discussion. While I may not agree with Bush/Reagan, I think that there is a difference between someone having a difference opinion and someone trying to blow up the system for their advantage. If we keep sensationalizing the past, it will end poorly for all of us. And we will all have blame.

It was more eloquent, but whatever the post is lost. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Soxbadger

[StrangeSox]

trump is a symptom, not the disease

 

speaking of global Bush's torture regime

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

15 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

 

Its ideas like this that are going to make it so that nothing changes. Reagan was a million times worse? Bush was responsible for Iraq?

How can you expect to have a legitimate conversation with Republicans, if you really believe what you wrote?

Im not going to touch the Reagan stuff, because if youre going to make a statement like that, the onus is on you to prove what you said. 

 

As for Bush. Last I checked in 2003 congress authorized the Iraq Resolution. Not saying its right or wrong, but its no different than any other conflict that the US has been involved in (outside of WWII.) 

Bush supported Harriet Miers, so what? He is the President, he can support whoever he wants. The difference is that Bush didnt go and change the rules to get her approved, he didnt undermine our entire system to push through his candidate. He played by the rules. The rules are (for better or for worse) the President nominates a SC candidate. I dont necessarily think Miers is the best candidate, but Bush was well within his authority to do it. 

Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. Again, something I dont believe in. But other people are allowed to have different beliefs. In fact you Bush actually supported civil unions; https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/politics/campaign/bush-says-his-party-is-wrong-to-oppose-gay-civil-unions.html

 

 

(edit)

Well I lost like half the post due to how much I hate these new boards and formatting, but the rest of the post was basically.

 

If you really believe that Bush was a million times worse than Trump, you lose all credibility in the discussion. While I may not agree with Bush/Reagan, I think that there is a difference between someone having a difference opinion and someone trying to blow up the system for their advantage. If we keep sensationalizing the past, it will end poorly for all of us. And we will all have blame.

It was more eloquent, but whatever the post is lost. 

No, constant white washing of things like the Iraq war is what continues to get us into trouble.

I could care less to have a "legitimate conversation" with a Republican if they are going to white wash the history of these two. 

I shouldn't have to explain all the stuff that Reagan did.  If you have no problem with him selling arms to Iran while supplying chemical weapons to Iraq, who just happened to be fighting a war against Iran.  If you think it's normal to fund two sides of a war as people die in mass numbers, than that's on you, but don't pretend that it's normal.

Also, to mention that with those arms sales from Iran, we funded the Contras.  Who used to rape and murder people. 

But, you know Trump said bad words or whatever.

[GoSox05]

"While I may not agree with Bush/Reagan, I think that supplying Efraín Ríos Montt with tanks to help him to commit genocide is just slight difference of opinion. "

[Soxbadger]

4 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

No, constant white washing of things like the Iraq war is what continues to get us into trouble.

I could care less to have a "legitimate conversation" with a Republican if they are going to white wash the history of these two. 

I shouldn't have to explain all the stuff that Reagan did.  If you have no problem with him selling arms to Iran while supplying chemical weapons to Iraq, who just happened to be fighting a war against Iran.  If you think it's normal to fund two sides of a war as people die in mass numbers, than that's on you, but don't pretend that it's normal.

Also, to mention that with those arms sales from Iran, we funded the Contras.  Who used to rape and murder people. 

But, you know Trump said bad words or whatever.

Who is whitewashing history? Putting history in its factual context is not whitewashing it, its putting things into context. I never said I have no problems selling weapons/chemical weapons/whatever, I just am saying that Democrats have done their fair share of bad things too. FDR put Japanese in internment camps, war criminal? And many other things.

And I think the most important part of your post was "I could care less to have a legitimate conversation with a Republican." 

[GoSox05]

I was trying to keep this in a modern context.

You are the one who said Trump was this never before seen awful president that America will be lucky to survive.

I was just trying to point out that he isn't that much different from the last couple Republican presidents and the party in general.  He's just louder and more obscene.

 

If the Democrats beat him in 2020 and get someone in power who doesn't take gigantic steps in changing how the economy works and how we deal with other countries.  The next Republican will be worse than Trump.  He may not be as loud, but he will be worse.

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, GoSox05 said:

I was trying to keep this in a modern context.

You are the one who said Trump was this never before seen awful president that America will be lucky to survive.

I was just trying to point out that he isn't that much different from the last couple Republican presidents and the party in general.  He's just louder and more obscene.

 

If the Democrats beat him in 2020 and get someone in power who doesn't take gigantic steps in changing how the economy works and how we deal with other countries.  The next Republican will be worse than Trump.  He may not be as loud, but he will be worse.

 

I actually never said any of that. My quote was:

1 hour ago, Soxbadger said:

Trump is a dramatic break from every other Republican president. There is no denying this. A while ago I posted that Trump would be the best thing to ever happen to Bush's legacy, and its true. Because now people are actually seeing what a bad guy is and that is a distinction people need to stop forgetting. 

 

I cant predict the future.

But what I can say is I never used the word "awful" or the phrases "lucky to survive" or "never before seen awful president."

So maybe you were reading another post, maybe you misread what I wrote. But now saying "not much different" is quite different than the "a million times worse" statement you previously made.

 

[GoSox05]

If you mean break from Republicans as far as just what he says and the way he acts.  In that regard he is a break from everything regardless of party.

As far as policies go.  He is right in line. 

 

I stand by saying that Bush and Reagan were worse.  Trump has time to prove me wrong.

Bush in general has been getting a lot of nice things said about him lately.  How quickly people forget.

[Dam8610]

1 hour ago, Soxbadger said:

 

I cant predict the future. What I can say is that if people keep acting like there is nothing that the other side can do, that they are all bad whatever (and this goes for both sides) then nothing is going to be accomplished. Ive seen some Republican's speak out about Trump. There are good people who are Republicans, sometimes you have to focus on the positive instead of berating them all the time. That just causes people to dig in their heals and defend.

The ones speaking out about Trump are the ones retiring. That doesn't take anything besides an ability to observe. I'm also not saying there's nothing they can do, the leaders of the Republican Party absolutely (currently) possess the powers to do the right thing should they find the will, but I doubt they'll find the will based on their behavior to this point. They certainly could prove me wrong and I'd welcome it, but I expect it as much as I expect Trump to agree to an interview with Mueller. Also, I have a hard time seeing how any person who believes in socioeconomic inequality at the level prescribed by the most recent Republican Party platform qualifies as a "good person". I'll agree that there are a lot of misguided people tricked into voting against their own interests by the Republican Party every election, and perhaps that's the group to which you're referring, but I can't get behind people who advocate for the horrible policies the Republican Party wants to put into place being called "good people".

 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, GoSox05 said:

Union workers voting for Trump or Republicans in general is something I just don't get.  Even if you think Democrats spend too much time worrying about social issues.  The party you are voting for wants to end unions and work protections.  Seems like a pretty big economic issue.

It also speaks to how much Democrats have lost that vote by not going to bat for them.

Who takes the blame for NAFTA, GATT, or the Trans Pacific Trade Agreement?  Clinton and Obama.  

[Soxbadger]

13 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

If you mean break from Republicans as far as just what he says and the way he acts.  In that regard he is a break from everything regardless of party.

As far as policies go.  He is right in line. 

 

I stand by saying that Bush and Reagan were worse.  Trump has time to prove me wrong.

Bush in general has been getting a lot of nice things said about him lately.  How quickly people forget.

 

Im not going to go policy by policy, but Im pretty sure prior to Trump you did not hear a lot of Republicans attacking the FBI/DOJ, nor were they anti-free trade. NAFTA was signed by more Republicans than Democrats. I could go on, but its just not true to say his policies are generally consistent with previous Republican ideals.

 

4 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

The ones speaking out about Trump are the ones retiring. That doesn't take anything besides an ability to observe. I'm also not saying there's nothing they can do, the leaders of the Republican Party absolutely (currently) possess the powers to do the right thing should they find the will, but I doubt they'll find the will based on their behavior to this point. They certainly could prove me wrong and I'd welcome it, but I expect it as much as I expect Trump to agree to an interview with Mueller. Also, I have a hard time seeing how any person who believes in socioeconomic inequality at the level prescribed by the most recent Republican Party platform qualifies as a "good person". I'll agree that there are a lot of misguided people tricked into voting against their own interests by the Republican Party every election, and perhaps that's the group to which you're referring, but I can't get behind people who advocate for the horrible policies the Republican Party wants to put into place being called "good people".

 

I think the problem is that people view other people through their own lens. While there is a small percentage of people who want "socioeconomic inequality" they are not the vast majority of either base. I think that a lot of people are struggling and they dont see a path to a society where everyone can be guaranteed a basic quality of life. They are told by a very small minority how bad that is and due to a variety of reasons, they listen to that minority.

But the richest of the rich, have nothing in common with most of us. They are the ones who have the money to sway policy. And they are the ones who go laughing to the bank as they pit the rest of us against each other.

 

 

[caulfield12]

How we handle immigration...feels like the biggest divide in the country in the coming years, as the white majority is going to be challenged and won’t embrace women and minorities having a much bigger say in the decision-making process.

[StrangeSox]

Trump isn't the problem, he's just a symptom of the rot

 

By the way, this guy is a former Trump admin official and now an official at the group pence was speaking at

Getting rid of Trump doesn't come close to solving the problem

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by StrangeSox