2018 Democrats thread

[StrangeSox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Like it or not, the Democrats are the reality-based group. Harvard was listing her with a slight native american background when she worked there, now we know that listing was accurate, and it's nice to continue being reality-based. 

He'll still denigrate her by calling her Pocahontas because he's a giant racist.

And his supporters will lap it up because so are they.

[Reddy]

1 hour ago, GoSox05 said:

Well, she isn't running in rural Iowa.  So what does it matter?

Are you honestly mad that she tweeted about playing a video game? This can't be real.  

That's my fucking point. All of you point to her and other progressives on the coast as a sign that "progressivism" works everywhere - and I'm sorry but AOC wouldn't work in the midwest. You all know that, too, you're just choosing to fight with me because you're entrenched in your position and saying "you're right" isn't fun.

[StrangeSox]

Progressive candidates could never win in the Midwest because one of them from NYC plays video games. I have a BS in poly sci never question me.

Edited October 15, 2018 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

Yeah, the Midwest has never had any success with progressive candidates.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by GoSox05

[Reddy]

38 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Well, since you asked:

Your candidate does not support Medicare for all, the most popular policy position in the country right now, instead talking nebulously about "expanding on the ACA". Her biggest platform point on economics is about infrastructure, and her platform includes ideas like deregulation to "help small businesses", which will almost assuredly end up helping large corporations, helping "family farms", which ultimately always just ends up helping corporate farms, and the ever nebulous "make college more affordable", which is clearly not prioritized and can be conveniently forgotten after the election. There is nothing in her platform about police or prison reform. The one point she is actually good on, fighting for workers' rights, will be washed away by the rest, because the businesses that can do the things she wants for workers won't exist if her other policy positions get enacted. That's how her platform is establishment. It projects the image of needed change without ever actually going far enough to create it.

Your sales pitch is as establishment as it comes. You're not actually listening to your constituents' concerns and telling them how your candidate's policy positions align with their concerns, you're selling them a feel good story.

Seriously, come on out to Cedar Rapids - it's not far - and knock doors with me and see if you're right about this. Because you might actually hear me ask every single person I talk to about the issues that they're concerned about and that matter to them. Spent 15 minutes talking with an out-of-work pipefitter who's on worker's comp that's about to run out because his doctor told him he's as healed as he's ever going to get.

Only problem? He can't lift his arm above his shoulder. You try doing the job of a pipefitter if you can't put your arm above your head.

He's screwed. And he's screwed because of omnipotent insurance companies and shitty workers laws in Iowa. But yeah - I def don't listen to the people I talk to. Keep running with your assumptions. Or how bout you come put your money where your mouth is for a second?

[StrangeSox]

Iowa famously banned vidja games in 1992 as "the Devil's entertainment," proving conclusively that a candidate who talks about video games in a one-off tweet would be doomed to failure

 

reddy you seem mad that the centrist candidate you're working for, who seems like she's going to go on to a pretty decent win, isn't getting national attention like more surprising candidates who have platforms that stand out are. Finkenaur's fine I guess, but of course someone like AOC who 1) has a surprise upset against a high ranking Dem and 2) who has a platform that diverges from the mainstream dem platform is going to get more attention. Posting over and over about how only centrism could ever win anywhere but the coasts is also a pretty entrenched position.

[Reddy]

1 minute ago, GoSox05 said:

Yeah, the Midwest has never had any success with progress candidates.

 

How many of Bernie's endorsed candidates won here this cycle in their primaries?

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Seriously, come on out to Cedar Rapids - it's not far - and knock doors with me and see if you're right about this. Because you might actually hear me ask every single person I talk to about the issues that they're concerned about and that matter to them. Spent 15 minutes talking with an out-of-work pipefitter who's on worker's comp that's about to run out because his doctor told him he's as healed as he's ever going to get.

Only problem? He can't lift his arm above his shoulder. You try doing the job of a pipefitter if you can't put your arm above your head.

He's screwed. And he's screwed because of omnipotent insurance companies and shitty workers laws in Iowa. But yeah - I def don't listen to the people I talk to. Keep running with your assumptions. Or how bout you come put your money where your mouth is for a second?

so what is your candidate's position to help him? she pushing for M4A so he gets adequate health care? a jobs guarantee so he doesn't have to live in destitution? what platform is going to win this guy over?

I'm confident that the solutions that the Bernies and the AOCs push for would help this guy. Help him a lot more than the centrist positions, anyway. I also recognize that's not the same thing as "what will get him to vote for you"

Edited October 15, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Reddy]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

Iowa famously banned vidja games in 1992 as "the Devil's entertainment," proving conclusively that a candidate who talks about video games in a one-off tweet would be doomed to failure

 

reddy you seem mad that the centrist candidate you're working for, who seems like she's going to go on to a pretty decent win, isn't getting national attention like more surprising candidates who have platforms that stand out are. Finkenaur's fine I guess, but of course someone like AOC who 1) has a surprise upset against a high ranking Dem and 2) who has a platform that diverges from the mainstream dem platform is going to get more attention. Posting over and over about how only centrism could ever win anywhere but the coasts is also a pretty entrenched position.

1) She's not a centrist, she's running a smart campaign. I talk to voters every. single. day. that tell me she's glad our candidate is moderate and willing to work with both sides. We'd be losing if she went full AOC.

2) The win is far from a sure thing. Recent polls are incredibly tight

3) My point was that if my candidate had tweeted that 22 days out from an election it would've been in GOP attack ads instantaneously - capitalizing on her youth, "inexperience", "entitlement", etc.

[Dam8610]

6 minutes ago, Reddy said:

That's my fucking point. All of you point to her and other progressives on the coast as a sign that "progressivism" works everywhere - and I'm sorry but AOC wouldn't work in the midwest. You all know that, too, you're just choosing to fight with me because you're entrenched in your position and saying "you're right" isn't fun.

The evidence contradicts your claim, especially the two midwest states that cost Hillary the election, both of which she also lost in the primary. The evidence says progressive platforms do in fact play in the Midwest. Further proof would be Obama's surprise 2008 win of Indiana.

[Reddy]

4 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

so what is your candidate's position to help him? she pushing for M4A so he gets adequate health care? a jobs guarantee so he doesn't have to live in destitution? what platform is going to win this guy over?

She supports a public option and allowing anyone under 65 to buy in to medicare

[Reddy]

2 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

The evidence contradicts your claim, especially the two midwest states that cost Hillary the election, both of which she also lost in the primary. The evidence says progressive platforms do in fact play in the Midwest. Further proof would be Obama's surprise 2008 win of Indiana.

Can you give me something post-2016? Because in the era of Bernie and DSA etc, they've had a grand total of zero primary wins.

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, Reddy said:

1) She's not a centrist, she's running a smart campaign. I talk to voters every. single. day. that tell me she's glad our candidate is moderate and willing to work with both sides. We'd be losing if she went full AOC.

2) The win is far from a sure thing. Recent polls are incredibly tight

3) My point was that if my candidate had tweeted that 22 days out from an election it would've been in GOP attack ads instantaneously - capitalizing on her youth, "inexperience", "entitlement", etc.

1) in what way are "moderate" and "centrist" not synonmous?

2) I dunno about internals, but the only close poll I've seen recently is a Blum internal that still has him down by a point. Internal polls that still show your candidate down are only ever released in desperation to try to create a "it's still a race!" narrative. I dunno, you're obviously more plugged in than me, but it looks like she's doing well.

3) AOC's race was in the primary. Maybe random potshots at her for tweeting about video games because it would have potentially been bad (I'm trying to imagine how hackneyed an attack ad based on that premise would be, and it's hard) if she were running in a different race are kinda silly and that's why you're getting some pushback?

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, Reddy said:

She supports a public option and allowing anyone under 65 to buy in to medicare

Her website doesn't mention either of those for some reason.

[pettie4sox]

Eh Reddy, I personally feel like you are reaching here.  Dinosaurs will die and the youth will take over.  I can't relate to a 50+ year old but I sure as hell can relate to a younger adult who has serious concerns about the future of this country.  Dinosaurs are extremely resilient to change and they have collectively ruined the future of our country with their shenanigans.  There comes a time when the old school way of doing things needs to be replaced.  That's why you see a plethora of people wanting to vote for candidates that put them first.  M4A, College, a living wage is something most Americans can get behind if explained properly.  The people who are (R) supporters will never change their mind as they are under the illusion they did everything and accomplished everything because of their hard work (newsflash, that's only part of it).  The independent vote which is surprisingly a good amount of voters are the targets.  Without them showing up or voting to give Trump a chance, we would not have him as President today.

[Reddy]

4 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Her website doesn't mention either of those for some reason.

She says it at events, at the debate, in interviews, etc.

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, pettie4sox said:

Eh Reddy, I personally feel like you are reaching here.  Dinosaurs will die and the youth will take over.  I can't relate to a 50+ year old but I sure as hell can relate to a younger adult who has serious concerns about the future of this country.  Dinosaurs are extremely resilient to change and they have collectively ruined the future of our country with their shenanigans.  There comes a time when the old school way of doing things needs to be replaced.  That's why you see a plethora of people wanting to vote for candidates that put them first.  M4A, College, a living wage is something most Americans can get behind if explained properly.  The people who are (R) supporters will never change their mind as they are under the illusion they did everything and accomplished everything because of their hard work (newsflash, that's only part of it).  The independent vote which is surprisingly a good amount of voters are the targets.  Without them showing up or voting to give Trump a chance, we would not have him as President today.

 

 

[Dam8610]

12 minutes ago, Reddy said:

1) She's not a centrist, she's running a smart campaign. I talk to voters every. single. day. that tell me she's glad our candidate is moderate and willing to work with both sides. We'd be losing if she went full AOC.

2) The win is far from a sure thing. Recent polls are incredibly tight

3) My point was that if my candidate had tweeted that 22 days out from an election it would've been in GOP attack ads instantaneously - capitalizing on her youth, "inexperience", "entitlement", etc.

 

You realize it is possible to be a progressive AND be willing to work with anyone to get things done, right? Hell, only Bernie Sanders and six Republicans voted against a defense budget increase that passed 93-7, and, shockingly, NO ONE asked "How are we going to pay for it?" Well, AOC did, but she's not in Congress yet.

[StrangeSox]

8 minutes ago, Reddy said:

She says it at events, at the debate, in interviews, etc.

Ok. Still weird that it isn't on her website. e: apparently I just glossed over that in her first paragraph on her policy page, my mistake!

But a Medicare buy-in for everyone is a pretty progressive position! That would be a fantastic improvement on our current status. If it's playing well in IA-01, great, progressive policies *do* work in the midwest!

Edited October 15, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Dam8610]

8 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Can you give me something post-2016? Because in the era of Bernie and DSA etc, they've had a grand total of zero primary wins.

Convenient goalpost moving yet again.

6 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Her website doesn't mention either of those for some reason.

Actually it does. Unlike Reddy, I'm not going to argue for some falsehood just because it would help my narrative. Still, public option isn't Medicare for All, which is the most popular policy position in the country that even a majority of Republicans support.

[Dam8610]

21 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Iowa famously banned vidja games in 1992 as "the Devil's entertainment," proving conclusively that a candidate who talks about video games in a one-off tweet would be doomed to failure

 

reddy you seem mad that the centrist candidate you're working for, who seems like she's going to go on to a pretty decent win, isn't getting national attention like more surprising candidates who have platforms that stand out are. Finkenaur's fine I guess, but of course someone like AOC who 1) has a surprise upset against a high ranking Dem and 2) who has a platform that diverges from the mainstream dem platform is going to get more attention. Posting over and over about how only centrism could ever win anywhere but the coasts is also a pretty entrenched position.

Super entrenched, especially since it's wrong. For one thing, I'll be really glad if the progressive who is the Democratic nominee for my district's state house seat ends up being my rep instead of the odious republican who has been. There certainly seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for him here in Indiana, but Reddy tells me that can't happen since he's endorsed by Our Revolution.

[bmags]

It seems that independents/moderates have platforms that are a mixture of surprisingly liberal along with surprisingly conservative views.

They are catered to by the democrats with candidates that offer policies that don't particularly fix anything but make you feel like they are supposed to. "Like you, I think it's terrible that college tuition is skyrocketing year after year. To fix that, I propose a federal savings vehicle that will let families save up to $200, tax free, in order to help mitigate that costs. I believe EVERYONE deserves a chance to go to college."

But realistically if you want to get pegged as a moderate you need to just be publicly idiosyncratic about one thing across policy lines. Justin Amash is very conservative, but extends that through positions that put him at odds with his party on foreign policy and it lends him tremendous credibility.

All that centrist dems offer is "Hey, don't worry, I won't do that much, so please don't blame me if the party does something you don't like".

 

[Dam8610]

10 minutes ago, Reddy said:

She says it at events, at the debate, in interviews, etc.

So establishment to just go on the defensive rather than correctly point out that he's wrong and link him to the proper issue page on her website. This is why Democrats accomplish nothing.

[pettie4sox]

14 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

?

[wrathofhahn]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

The article claufield linked is an opinion piece on CNN, but it references polls by other companies, too.

CNN's most recent polls seem to have been done by SSRS, who at least at 538 is rated "A-" in quality.

And in fairness to them they may have since changed the way they do polls. I haven't opened up the PDF and seen exactly what their methodology was just in the past they've been caught engaging in questionable practices which is why I choose to take theirs with a grain of salt. To each their own

Here is the video I mentioned earlier like I said their polls are often skewed like rasmussen but to each their own.