White Sox acquire Joakim Soria, Luis Avilan and $3 Million

[greg775]

Greg I just want to know if you think Soria is better or worse than Al Albuquerque or Dylan Covey.

Well I would say he's better than those 2. Those 2 make me cringe. I'm just telling you Soria to a Royals fan is Rios to Greg. If you remember how I despised Rios. Soria is just a gascan. That doesn't mean I mind the trade. The trade is fine since we got that other guy and aren't trying to win anyway. Plus I've said 5 times Coop may fix Soria. I love Coop the grouch.

 

Teams don't give away useful valuable pieces to dump a contract that is reasonable with a guy whose peripherals suggest will be halfway valuable.

 

If Greg is pissed at the trade, I disagree with him. If he just thinks Soria sucks, he has a point. Anything you get from him is gravy, but chances are it won't be much.

I just think Soria sucks and can attest to you KC fans are rejoicing at dumping him and that salary.

 

1.) Soria is not unknown, he's literally been in the division since 2007 (with the exception of 2013)

2.) Soria is not awful. His career numbers argue quite the opposite actually. 2.86 ERA, 3.07 FIP, 3.28 xFIP, 9.62 K/9, 2.71 BB/9, 204 S over 573 IP. Prettay, prettay good.

3.) Can you please provide us with some first hand accounts of Soria being a bad clubhouse guy?

I'm sorry about No. 3. I just am repeating what I heard on the talk shows today that he was a bad clubhouse guy. I may be trashing him wrongly there since I don't know the guy. My bad. Forgive me. I'll let you know if the talk shows give better examples. Again I apologize to Jack, his name here given him by Ned. Jack Soria. Please strike that clubhouse thing from the record as I am repeating talk show banter there. Sorry.

 

Every fan base has their whipping boys. These tend to be irrational and based on single instances instead of rational and all encompassing. This sounds like exactly what is happening here.

Maybe. I'll give you that. Maybe. As a Sox fan though, I'd laugh watching end of KC games and see Soria simply be unable to get through a half inning without giving up walks, hits and runs. He was really a lousy Royal the second go round. Earlier in his career when KC had him he was good. Now? Ugh he's bad.

 

People just like to b**** and moan or be contratian. I get it to a degree but there's no downside here Peter was never, ever going to contribute in a big role on a Sox team with Moncada at 2B and there is no long term commitment to either of these relievers.

Agreed. We're not trying to win so no biggie. My problem is Soria (to me) is so bad he's affecting my decision whether to buy mlb.com or not. I don't need the angst.

[Jose Abreu]

Sure it does. That's why it's an average. In this situation you have a player who pitches pretty well most of the time but has a tendency to lose it on occasion. This can very helpful in how they use him. Maybe the blow up was after three straight days of pitching or after 3 days of not pitching. the definition of average is combining all of the performances together. it can tell you an awful lot. It's better than the "small sample size" look. Although to be honest anything less than a 110 games or so is a small sample size when looking at a full season performance

Say this blow-up occasion is one time, and is not a 3-4x per season type of deal. A reliever goes 60 IP allowing 18 ER for a 2.70 ERA. On his last outing of the season, he has a total nightmare performance and pitches 1 inning, allowing 7 earned runs. His season ERA goes from 2.70 to 3.68.

 

The average fan looks at that 3.68 ERA at the end of the year and deems him an okay middle reliever. In reality, his season was likely stellar, but his average stats like ERA are heavily skewed by that one outing.

 

Fans in general just seem to take stats such as ERA out of context all the time. For relievers especially, I think there are far better options for judging their performance.

[Chicago White Sox]

The posters on SSS have a much different view on this trade.

[caulfield12]

Soria is living in the minds of some Sox fans as the original, prime of his career version.

Same reason Yost kept going to him in high leverage despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

Jack (Soria’s nickname) is simply a calculated risk. He’s been bedeviled by injuries the last five years. A velocity gain isn’t that meaningful because he’s losing movement and his FBs are flattening out more.

 

There’s a decent chance he goes down to injury, about the same as the odds of flipping him for a Top 100-200 player if he reasserts himself as a dominant closer again.

 

To me, the need for Avilan was the bigger element of the deal.

 

KC is officially crazy. Last year proved they can’t win without a solid pen. No surprise. Herrera sucked and Strahm got hurt. Different situation when they could go Herrera, Wade Davis, then Holland.

 

Overspending on Hosmer won’t do a thing besides get KC a #8 pick instead of #4 overall. Alex Gordon is toast. Sal Perez gets beat up more and more each year. Their bullpen is in shambles. Ventura died. Ian Kennedy hasn’t worked out. Sure, Mondesi, Bonifacio, Cuthbert, Soler, Merrifield, etc., could shock the world. Anything’s possible, why not?

 

But the odds are higher of Kopech, Jimenez and Hansen leading the Sox to 85 wins this year...when almost everyone has them in the mid to high 60’s for victories.

Edited January 6, 2018 by caulfield12

[mac9001]

His numbers really aren't that bad.

 

He made 59 appearances last year (56 IP), in 46 of those appearances he did not allow a run (44.2 IP).

 

8 times he only allowed 1 run (7.1 IP).

 

He had 5 bad outings, over those 5 bad outings he pitched a total of 3 IP and gave up 16 ER (including 4 ER three times).

 

So he gave up 1 ER or less 91.5% of the time. He did blow 7 saves, but in four of those he only gave up 1 ER and three of them came in the month of July.

 

Would I want him as my setup guy if I'm shooting for a pennant? Probably not. But he's a solid set-up option and he was just added to the worst bullpen in baseball. Given the 3 year commitments pen arms are getting I can't find anything to complain about given the cost to acquire these guys.

[GreenSox]

Guys who come to mind...

 

Martin Prado, Kelvin Herrera, Matt Kemp, Brandon McCarthy, Scott Kazmir, Jacob Ellsbury,...

Not worth it, unless you just cut them immediately.

[iamshack]

Soria is living in the minds of some Sox fans as the original, prime of his career version.

Same reason Yost kept going to him in high leverage despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

Jack (Soria’s nickname) is simply a calculated risk. He’s been bedeviled by injuries the last five years. A velocity gain isn’t that meaningful because he’s losing movement and his FBs are flattening out more.

 

There’s a decent chance he goes down to injury, about the same as the odds of flipping him for a Top 100-200 player if he reasserts himself as a dominant closer again.

 

To me, the need for Avilan was the bigger element of the deal.

 

KC is officially crazy. Last year proved they can’t win without a solid pen. No surprise. Herrera sucked and Strahm got hurt. Different situation when they could go Herrera, Wade Davis, then Holland.

 

Overspending on Hosmer won’t do a thing besides get KC a #8 pick instead of #4 overall. Alex Gordon is toast. Sal Perez gets beat up more and more each year. Their bullpen is in shambles. Ventura died. Ian Kennedy hasn’t worked out. Sure, Mondesi, Bonifacio, Cuthbert, Soler, Merrifield, etc., could shock the world. Anything’s possible, why not?

 

But the odds are higher of Kopech, Jimenez and Hansen leading the Sox to 85 wins this year...when almost everyone has them in the mid to high 60’s for victories.

I think most folks would admit he’s a calculated risk. What people are objecting to is an emotionally-charged aversion to him which belies the objective evidence at hand.

[greg775]

I think most folks would admit he’s a calculated risk. What people are objecting to is an emotionally-charged aversion to him which belies the objective evidence at hand.

What you guys are telling me is you didn't want me to shed some light on the fact KC fans wanted to run Soria out of town last season and blamed him for everything. I should have stifled myself I guess.

Everybody from little kids to little ol ladies wanted to run Soria out of Kansas City. I enjoy reading all the stats in these threads. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. Again it doesn't matter cause we are a 60ish win team again so let Soria pitch all he wants. Those of you who root for losses will enjoy seeing him serve up meat ... UNLESS Mr. Coop works magic. ... I'll stop now. But you have to admit you can do a lot of things with stats and apologists have really been trying their best to support Jack with stats in this thread.

Edited January 6, 2018 by greg775

[Balta1701]

What you guys are telling me is you didn't want me to shed some light on the fact KC fans wanted to run Soria out of town last season and blamed him for everything. I should have stifled myself I guess.

Everybody from little kids to little ol ladies wanted to run Soria out of Kansas City. I enjoy reading all the stats in these threads. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. Again it doesn't matter cause we are a 60ish win team again so let Soria pitch all he wants. Those of you who root for losses will enjoy seeing him serve up meat ... UNLESS Mr. Coop works magic. ... I'll stop now. But you have to admit you can do a lot of things with stats and apologists have really been trying their best to support Jack with stats in this thread.

So basically, either he improves our draft pick or he is actually fixed by Cooper and becomes a useful, tradeable asset.

 

You have just outlined how this is a win/win. And we got an extra lefty! And you save $15 a month! DUDE!

[caulfield12]

Greg has threatened to withdraw his MLB Extra Innings package more than any customer in the US.

 

It’s kind of cute. If you follow message boards, you’d think NFL attendance and tv ratings were similar to MLS with how many are claiming they refuse to watch, buy jerseys or renew season tickets.

 

Frankly, those broadcast deals are huge bargains if you consume sports regularly and enjoy following other teams/broadcasters.

[ptatc]

Say this blow-up occasion is one time, and is not a 3-4x per season type of deal. A reliever goes 60 IP allowing 18 ER for a 2.70 ERA. On his last outing of the season, he has a total nightmare performance and pitches 1 inning, allowing 7 earned runs. His season ERA goes from 2.70 to 3.68.

 

The average fan looks at that 3.68 ERA at the end of the year and deems him an okay middle reliever. In reality, his season was likely stellar, but his average stats like ERA are heavily skewed by that one outing.

 

Fans in general just seem to take stats such as ERA out of context all the time. For relievers especially, I think there are far better options for judging their performance.

Sure its statistically possible that heblows up on must one outing. Odds are that isnt the case. It could happen. ERA isnt all that important for a reliever with few innings. As I said earlier, the better way to look at it would be ,only one blown save, thats a good year.

[wrathofhahn]

Soria is living in the minds of some Sox fans as the original, prime of his career version.

Same reason Yost kept going to him in high leverage despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

Jack (Soria’s nickname) is simply a calculated risk. He’s been bedeviled by injuries the last five years. A velocity gain isn’t that meaningful because he’s losing movement and his FBs are flattening out more.

 

There’s a decent chance he goes down to injury, about the same as the odds of flipping him for a Top 100-200 player if he reasserts himself as a dominant closer again.

 

To me, the need for Avilan was the bigger element of the deal.

 

KC is officially crazy. Last year proved they can’t win without a solid pen. No surprise. Herrera sucked and Strahm got hurt. Different situation when they could go Herrera, Wade Davis, then Holland.

 

Overspending on Hosmer won’t do a thing besides get KC a #8 pick instead of #4 overall. Alex Gordon is toast. Sal Perez gets beat up more and more each year. Their bullpen is in shambles. Ventura died. Ian Kennedy hasn’t worked out. Sure, Mondesi, Bonifacio, Cuthbert, Soler, Merrifield, etc., could shock the world. Anything’s possible, why not?

 

But the odds are higher of Kopech, Jimenez and Hansen leading the Sox to 85 wins this year...when almost everyone has them in the mid to high 60’s for victories.

 

I don't think KC is crazy at all they would be crazy if they signed Hosmer but they don't have to have a huge payroll to rebuild.

 

I think the problem is they are not getting prospects back. They have no farm. That is going prolong the rebuild if they can't get something for the future with the few assets they have. I mean the more I think about it the shopping of Hererra the shopping of Duffy. I mean I don't think KC front office are geniuses by any stretch but it's hard to see them committing to Hosmer for 150 million considering the makeup of the team. Makes no sense. Story is probably a boras plant.

 

I think another part of the problem KC has is most of the guys are coming off down years. Duffy is really the only guy who could get them a significant package back. Hererra is coming off a down year makes like 9 million after arb and is a FA after this year. They are stuck with Gordon, Hammel, and Kennedy.

 

They are still estimated to have around 120 million payroll after the move and looking to cut. If I'm the whitesox I follow up with Hererra. I mean he's a good bounceback candidate and won't cost a whole lot via trade because his salary and lack of term. Probably about the same as Soria some C- fringy prospect.

 

As far as the Sox go I mean it sort of depends on how Hahn wants to play it. As of now I wouldn't be surprised to see Eloy remain in the minors he's ready but keeping him there to June gives an extra year of control it also gives the FO leverage in trade deals for OF already on the roster. Same goes for Kopach and the rest of them. In the meantime the team is going to bad and build up some losses. I think 70 wins would be optimistic. I mean remember you are also subtracting the talent they traded away. Q, Milk Man, Kahne, Jennings and Roberson from that group.

[caulfield12]

I don't think KC is crazy at all they would be crazy if they signed Hosmer but they don't have to have a huge payroll to rebuild.

 

I think the problem is they are not getting prospects back. They have no farm. That is going prolong the rebuild if they can't get something for the future with the few assets they have. I mean the more I think about it the shopping of Hererra the shopping of Duffy. I mean I don't think KC front office are geniuses by any stretch but it's hard to see them committing to Hosmer for 150 million considering the makeup of the team. Makes no sense. Story is probably a boras plant.

 

I think another part of the problem KC has is most of the guys are coming off down years. Duffy is really the only guy who could get them a significant package back. Hererra is coming off a down year makes like 9 million after arb and is a FA after this year. They are stuck with Gordon, Hammel, and Kennedy.

 

They are still estimated to have around 120 million payroll after the move and looking to cut. If I'm the whitesox I follow up with Hererra. I mean he's a good bounceback candidate and won't cost a whole lot via trade because his salary and lack of term. Probably about the same as Soria some C- fringy prospect.

 

As far as the Sox go I mean it sort of depends on how Hahn wants to play it. As of now I wouldn't be surprised to see Eloy remain in the minors he's ready but keeping him there to June gives an extra year of control it also gives the FO leverage in trade deals for OF already on the roster. Same goes for Kopach and the rest of them. In the meantime the team is going to bad and build up some losses. I think 70 wins would be optimistic. I mean remember you are also subtracting the talent they traded away. Q, Milk Man, Kahne, Jennings and Roberson from that group.

 

Even Duffy doesn’t have ace value because of his injury history...they actually need to decide if they want to deal Sal Perez while he’s still close to peak.

 

Then cut budget down like what the White Sox are doing and hope Strahm, Gordon, Soler, Cuthbert, Herrera, etc., recover some of their value. Too many blown high draft picks like Starling and Zimmer.

[wrathofhahn]

Even Duffy doesn’t have ace value because of his injury history...they actually need to decide if they want to deal Sal Perez while he’s still close to peak.

 

Then cut budget down like what the White Sox are doing and hope Strahm, Gordon, Soler, Cuthbert, Herrera, etc., recover some of their value. Too many blown high draft picks like Starling and Zimmer.

 

It's hard to see Gordon ever having positive value. Or Kennedy. Their recent performances have been awful and their deals backloaded.

 

I don't think Duffy has Ace value either but he could probably get you a top 50 prospect. They really have nothing on their MLB roster after this wave of FA leaves and MLB pipeline has them having zero ranked top 100 prospects. Their top prospect plays 1B and hit .247 last year. Their third prospect is Dozier a 26 year old 3B who hit .226 in the PCL.

 

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017?list=kc

 

I mean all they can do is what they have been doing raiding the international FA market and hoping to lucky on a Dominican but sheesh if their owner cuts payroll I don't blame him. There is no way they are competitive next year and not for the forseeable future either.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

If the plan for KC was to free up cash for Hosmer, Dayton Moore has either lost his mind or they are satisfied with their run and will be going to the old Cubs method of fielding a crappy team but keeping a fan favorite around .

 

They weren't good enough with Hosmer, Cain, and Moustakas. How do they make their bullpen even worse and bring back one of these guys and think they have a shot?

 

The sad reality is even if you get to the WS 2 years in a row, the small market teams can't keep their players. Sustained success is big boy only.

 

One thing I guess Hahn mentioned in his conference call several times is that they expect Nate Jones to be good to go when the season starts.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Dick Allen

[GGajewski18]

What you guys are telling me is you didn't want me to shed some light on the fact KC fans wanted to run Soria out of town last season and blamed him for everything. I should have stifled myself I guess.

Everybody from little kids to little ol ladies wanted to run Soria out of Kansas City. I enjoy reading all the stats in these threads. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. Again it doesn't matter cause we are a 60ish win team again so let Soria pitch all he wants. Those of you who root for losses will enjoy seeing him serve up meat ... UNLESS Mr. Coop works magic. ... I'll stop now. But you have to admit you can do a lot of things with stats and apologists have really been trying their best to support Jack with stats in this thread.

 

The stats say he was pretty good, but you can ignore that like you usually do because KC fans say that he was bad. ok.

[SCCWS]

 

 

Other than the top 10 relievers or so, the rest are as good as how they are pitching at the present time. Some guys who were solid last year will blow up this year and some guys who stunk last year will bounce back this season. These additions give the Sox a couple of additional bullpen pieces. Their value will be determined how well they pitch April-July. They will either be flippable pieces or will be added to the relief pitcher heap in the offseason.

[caulfield12]

When Andrew Miller signed his four-year, $36 million contract with the Yankees prior to the 2015 season, that contract was considered a shocking luxury to rival executives, the kind of deal that only a big-market team could consider. Just a few years later, a $9 million annual salary is the going rate for a good reliever, paid this winter by the Phillies to Tommy Hunter (two years, $18 million), by the Rockies to Jake McGee and Bryan Shaw (both signing for three years, $27 million) and by the Rangers to Mike Minor (three years, $28 million, with an opportunity to start).

 

ESPN.com

[Jerksticks]

The stats say he was pretty good, but you can ignore that like you usually do because KC fans say that he was bad. ok.

All he’s saying is that KC fans are happy he is gone, which is true.

[thxfrthmmrs]

All he’s saying is that KC fans are happy he is gone, which is true.

 

Have you read the thread at all?

 

I just think Soria sucks and can attest to you KC fans are rejoicing at dumping him and that salary.

 

[LittleHurt05]

If the plan for KC was to free up cash for Hosmer, Dayton Moore has either lost his mind or they are satisfied with their run and will be going to the old Cubs method of fielding a crappy team but keeping a fan favorite around .

 

They weren't good enough with Hosmer, Cain, and Moustakas. How do they make their bullpen even worse and bring back one of these guys and think they have a shot?

 

The sad reality is even if you get to the WS 2 years in a row, the small market teams can't keep their players. Sustained success is big boy only.

 

One thing I guess Hahn mentioned in his conference call several times is that they expect Nate Jones to be good to go when the season starts.

 

Careful with that name drop DA. If you think greg hates Soria, he holds a special place in hell for Nate Jones. The next nice thing he says about Jones will be the first.

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

Well I would say he's better than those 2. Those 2 make me cringe. I'm just telling you Soria to a Royals fan is Rios to Greg. If you remember how I despised Rios. Soria is just a gascan. That doesn't mean I mind the trade. The trade is fine since we got that other guy and aren't trying to win anyway. Plus I've said 5 times Coop may fix Soria. I love Coop the grouch.

 

Agreed. We're not trying to win so no biggie. My problem is Soria (to me) is so bad he's affecting my decision whether to buy mlb.com or not. I don't need the angst.

 

Dang Greg, let me see if I understand you here. You WERE planning to get MLB TV but now that the Sox have added two relievers better than Albuquerque and Covey and who won't make you cringe as much without giving up any MLB talent, you are deciding you aren't watching the Sox next year? I am a little lost.

[southsider2k5]

Dang Greg, let me see if I understand you here. You WERE planning to get MLB TV but now that the Sox have added two relievers better than Albuquerque and Covey and who won't make you cringe as much without giving up any MLB talent, you are deciding you aren't watching the Sox next year? I am a little lost.

 

Forget it, he's rolling

[ptatc]

Forget it, he's rolling

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Can't believe you guys are spending all this time arguing about Joakim Soria. Lol.