Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, raBBit said: You would think having engagement with adversaries is a good thing unless you are for conflict/war. If Obama met with Putin in this fashion he would be received as a peace bringer. Even at the height of the civil war JFK had a direct line Kruschev. Is the objection here as to how Trump acted towards Putin? Is the outrage due to idea that Trump connected with Russians so that they would finance social advertising for him, Sanders and Jill Stein? Nothing Trump said today is any different than anything he's said in the last month or so. "Peter Strzok and his lovers texts. He is disgraceful." "It's a witch hunt." "Where's the server?" All the same stuff over and over again. I am curious as to why the Obama administration didn't feel the need to act on this plot when they first became aware of it in September of 2016? Was it not significant enough to be acted on or to inform the voters they may have been subjected to Russian financed advertising on their social media platforms? At what point did it become worthy of constant media attention and years of government investigation. Regardless, I don't get the outrage. Rosenstein said there were no Americans involved. Rosenstein - "Today's charges include no allegations of knowing involvement by anyone on the campaign and no allegations that the alleged hacking affected the election result," What am I missing here? Clinton didn't lose because of this. She lost because both Michigan and Pennsylvania felt compelled, for whatever reason, to vote Republican for the first time since 1988. HRC opted not to include time in Wisconsin on her election schedule and so they voted Republican for the first time since 1984. Is it that Trump is siding with Russia over the Intelligence community? I could get that argument if the intelligence community didn't have such an awful track record of reason. But really, this is just a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Trump's two biggest enemies, the media and the intelligence community, have intertwined Putin into their Russia media frenzy. So Trump and Putin have common enemies. The result of that seems to be improved diplomacy according to the two leaders of USA & Russia. My issue is that there are a lot of people who identify with opposing Trump and because of Trump's public opposition of the intelligence community, these anti-Trumpers reflexively defend the intelligence agencies and take their word as fact. That's not healthy for a society. The intelligence community has an awful track record. The FBI had to release five senior officials from their positions because of their transgressions. I couldn't find another time in history where a similar situation occurred. Of course the FBI doesn't sniff the rank of corruptness the CIA has shown over the years. The incredible growth of the drone wars (in activity, surveillance, attacks, dead civilians, countries, etc.). Torture occurred. They lied. They got caught. Mass surveillance of Americans happened. They lied. They got caught. Leaks on their hacking strategies that included the use of household electronics to spy on unwitting Americans. Government coups causing disruption on multiple continents. Funding extremists in the middle east, funding Osama bin Laden, etc. Ted Kaczynski developments. Knowingly contracting men with STDs in San Francisco. Kidnapping and torture of German citizen in 03. They ratted on Nelson Mandela leading to his 3 decades in jail. The list goes on and on. It's not as if Trump is the first to criticize the intelligence community. JFK also ripped the intelligence community and said they needed to “splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." Read Bernie Sanders old quotes. See how Eisenhower felt about them. How is Putin’s track record? You know, the guy you believe. BTW you mentioned 5 intelligence officials leaving, what about the 5 guilty pleas so far from the Trump campaign? Edited July 17, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 raBBit, is there anything that you disagree with regarding Trump? You've been carrying his water for 18 months. Seems odd for someone who claims to be independent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, raBBit said: Do you want to be at odds with Putin? If our government has improved relations with Russia that is a good thing? Yes I want to be at odds with a murderer dictator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, BigSqwert said: raBBit, is there anything that you disagree with regarding Trump? You've been carrying his water for 18 months. Seems odd for someone who claims to be independent. He being independent is the most laughable thing on this board. He backs Trump no matter what he does, and feels sorry for Nazis who run people over 1 minute ago, BigSqwert said: raBBit, is there anything that you disagree with regarding Trump? You've been carrying his water for 18 months. Seems odd for someone who claims to be independent. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, raBBit said: Do you want to be at odds with Putin? If our government has improved relations with Russia that is a good thing? I would rather side with the CIA vs the KGB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, raBBit said: Plenty of things. No one ever responds when I do. What's with the avatar? Like what? Tax cuts? Health care? Immigration? Dreamers? Travel ban? Supreme Court Justice appointments in an election year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, raBBit said: I am curious as to why the Obama administration didn't feel the need to act on this plot when they first became aware of it in September of 2016? Was it not significant enough to be acted on or to inform the voters they may have been subjected to Russian financed advertising on their social media platforms? At what point did it become worthy of constant media attention and years of government investigation. Because Mitch McConnell protected Donald Trump's deal with the Russians and said that if they tried to release a statement about the Russian attack he'd make it a partisan issue. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/12/10/mitch_mcconnell_prevented_stronger_action_against_russian_election_meddling.html https://nypost.com/2018/03/04/mcconnell-watered-down-response-to-russian-meddling-ex-obama-official/ https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/24/580171396/biden-mcconnell-refused-to-sign-bipartisan-statement-on-russian-interference https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?postshare=7111481335261119&utm_term=.c9ab6a714070 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/mitch-mcconnell-russian-asset.html https://www.npr.org/2018/02/21/587614043/fact-check-why-didnt-obama-stop-russia-s-election-interference-in-2016 Harry Reid also sent a letter to James Comey begging Comey to make a public statement about the existence of that investigation, and Comey refused. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, raBBit said: Do you want to be at odds with Putin? If our government has improved relations with Russia that is a good thing? Russia broke a treaty with the US. Im not just going to sit here and normalize that behavior. If Russia wants to improve relations, leave Crimea, apologize for breaking the treaty, and pay reparations. If they dont, I have no problem continuing bad relations until they correct their behavior. Im not going to normalize foreign countries breaking treaties with us, Im not going to say its okay for us to bow to them. I have no problem being at odds with Putin due to his behavior. But I would be very open to improved relations if he fixes the problems he created. 13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I would rather side with the CIA vs the KGB. I think its every intelligence agency, so youd rather side with Americans than Putin, which is what id hope most Americans would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The best way to describe this meeting in Helsinki, is that Trump gave Putin verbal fellatio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, raBBit said: Do you want to be at odds with Putin? If our government has improved relations with Russia that is a good thing? Poisons opponents? Brings down passenger planes? Invades countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, raBBit said: Why don't you worry about what you are instead always talking about what I am? "Feels sorry for Nazis" do you even realize how silly you sound and how you quick you get personal? I am sure you don't run your mouth like this all the time in real life. The progressive compassionate who's political compass is putting people down and calling them Nazis/fascists/homophobes/racists snarl du jour. Rich. I know what you are. I am not sounding silly, you are. You were sympathetic to a Nazi who ran over a protester and insisted your Nazi website you visit was correct and she had a heart attack because she was overweight and it was hot. Now Trump sides with the KGB and you want to be friends with Russia. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, raBBit said: I think that goes without saying but with regard to the specific issue they were presented with, Trump is directly at odds with with the IC. Today. Two days ago he admitted to Russian meddling so that he could blame it on Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, raBBit said: Why don't you worry about what you are instead always talking about what I am? "Feels sorry for Nazis" do you even realize how silly you sound and how you quick you get personal? I am sure you don't run your mouth like this all the time in real life. The progressive compassionate who's political compass is putting people down and calling them Nazis/fascists/homophobes/racists snarl du jour. Rich. Sorry dude, we're just "telling it like it is" If it is ok for Trump to do that(IYO), then it is ok for us to do that. No double standards. Just like when Hillary called Trump supporters a basket of deplorables. Oh, I'm sorry. Bill Clinton getting a blowjob in the Oval Office was an impeachable offense, but paying a porn star to keep her mouth shut during a campaign isn't? That's right. the GOP is the party of double standards. If a Dem does something, it is the end of the world but if a GOP member does it, it is nobody's business. So much for the party of moral high grounds and traditional values. Also, quit making excuses for a traitor. Edited July 17, 2018 by Jack Parkman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Today. Two days ago he admitted to Russian meddling so that he could blame it on Obama. Why even bother? Trumpites believe that Seth Rich was murdered by the DNC, despite all evidence to the contrary. They also believe that Russia did nothing, despite all evidence supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, raBBit said: You would think having engagement with adversaries is a good thing unless you are for conflict/war. If Obama met with Putin in this fashion he would be received as a peace bringer. Even at the height of the civil war JFK had a direct line Kruschev. Is the objection here as to how Trump acted towards Putin? Is the outrage due to idea that Trump connected with Russians so that they would finance social advertising for him, Sanders and Jill Stein? Nothing Trump said today is any different than anything he's said in the last month or so. "Peter Strzok and his lovers texts. He is disgraceful." "It's a witch hunt." "Where's the server?" All the same stuff over and over again. I am curious as to why the Obama administration didn't feel the need to act on this plot when they first became aware of it in September of 2016? Was it not significant enough to be acted on or to inform the voters they may have been subjected to Russian financed advertising on their social media platforms? At what point did it become worthy of constant media attention and years of government investigation. Regardless, I don't get the outrage. Rosenstein said there were no Americans involved. Rosenstein - "Today's charges include no allegations of knowing involvement by anyone on the campaign and no allegations that the alleged hacking affected the election result," What am I missing here? Clinton didn't lose because of this. She lost because both Michigan and Pennsylvania felt compelled, for whatever reason, to vote Republican for the first time since 1988. HRC opted not to include time in Wisconsin on her election schedule and so they voted Republican for the first time since 1984. Is it that Trump is siding with Russia over the Intelligence community? I could get that argument if the intelligence community didn't have such an awful track record of reason. But really, this is just a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Trump's two biggest enemies, the media and the intelligence community, have intertwined Putin into their Russia media frenzy. So Trump and Putin have common enemies. The result of that seems to be improved diplomacy according to the two leaders of USA & Russia. My issue is that there are a lot of people who identify with opposing Trump and because of Trump's public opposition of the intelligence community, these anti-Trumpers reflexively defend the intelligence agencies and take their word as fact. That's not healthy for a society. The intelligence community has an awful track record. The FBI had to release five senior officials from their positions because of their transgressions. I couldn't find another time in history where a similar situation occurred. Of course the FBI doesn't sniff the rank of corruptness the CIA has shown over the years. The incredible growth of the drone wars (in activity, surveillance, attacks, dead civilians, countries, etc.). Torture occurred. They lied. They got caught. Mass surveillance of Americans happened. They lied. They got caught. Leaks on their hacking strategies that included the use of household electronics to spy on unwitting Americans. Government coups causing disruption on multiple continents. Funding extremists in the middle east, funding Osama bin Laden, etc. Ted Kaczynski developments. Knowingly contracting men with STDs in San Francisco. Kidnapping and torture of German citizen in 03. They ratted on Nelson Mandela leading to his 3 decades in jail. The list goes on and on. It's not as if Trump is the first to criticize the intelligence community. JFK also ripped the intelligence community and said they needed to “splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." Read Bernie Sanders old quotes. See how Eisenhower felt about them. You’ve really gone off the deep end twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend the indefensible...sigh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, raBBit said: “Curious point in American government. When do we see almost a shadow government come out and say, ‘We cannot side with the government, whether it's cabinet or the Senate.' - I think that's the big question” - Former CIA Official and current CNN Analyst Philip Mudd today on CNN. Well, considering the shadow government is actually Trump/Russia...we’ve already seen it. The only question is how long Trump’s base remains loyal before they begin to start putting country over ideology. Congress is finally starting to turn on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Like I said the rule of law is breaking down. No one will stand up to Trump and Congress will continue to protect him. Not one thing Trump said today makes any sense. If you think Trump bears any resemblance to his predecessors you must have a brain tumor. The GoP will stand with Trump in defense of white supremacy. The election will change nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Lol...US allies are basically begging for the formation of a shadow government! So it is significant that Maas used the words "White House" rather than the United States -- because it reflects how Europeans are increasingly looking for ways to engage Washington through other centers of power rather than through the capricious President. Beneath the uproar of Trump's disruptive blast through Europe, strong links remain between the military, business, intelligence agencies and civil society groups on either side of the Atlantic. Those may be crucial to riding out the Trump storm. Nicholas Dungan, a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council who teaches at the prestigious French research university Sciences Po, said it was time for America's friends in Europe and for the US leadership class -- political figures, CEOs, heads of think tanks and universities -- to take action. "Stop wringing your hands ... get your act together and start doing things that are going to repair the situation, rather than just sitting around and talking about how bad the situation is with Trump," he said. Dungan argued that America's friends -- like French President Emmanuel Macron, Merkel and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe -- need to adopt a dual track approach: "You need two different policies. You need one policy to the individual Donald Trump, because it's clear that he doesn't make the distinction between himself and his office. You need another policy toward the United States of America." Source: Fake news CNN (even though an intelligence expert appearing on one of their programs was recently quoted in this thread) Edited July 17, 2018 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, raBBit said: DA your Posts are so sassy and edgy. I am obvioUSly a Nazi you get me. You're doing the people'S work calling everYone Nazi's. Can you show me where I have called everyone a Nazi? If Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton had the same disaster as Trump had yesterday, your reaction would be quite different Mr. Independent. He has no problem slamming the leaders of Germany, of France, of the UK, of Canada, but he bows down to Putin, a guy who poisons his opponents, invades countries, shoots down commercial planes. And you're OK with it. I don't have to call you anything. You tell people what you are with your posts. Edited July 17, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 11 hours ago, raBBit said: Regardless, I don't get the outrage. Rosenstein said there were no Americans involved. Rosenstein - "Today's charges include no allegations of knowing involvement by anyone on the campaign and no allegations that the alleged hacking affected the election result," What am I missing here? FWIW Rosenstein did not say "there were no Americans involved." The language in the indictment is very specific. First, the indictment references US persons multiple times including a Congressional candidate. So the indictment is very clear that US persons were involved. The quoted section there is factually stating what the indictment does or doesn't contain. It offers no conclusions whatsoever on whether Americans were actually knowingly involved. This indictment contains no charges against any US persons, but nothing in the indictment or in that statement precludes the possibility of future charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 House of Cards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I don't think anything will come of this Trump/Putin stuff, but it is funny as hell to see Trump just look like an absolute idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hillary Clinton Oct. 19,2016, can't say she didn't nail it. "You encouraged espionage against our people," she said. "You are willing to spout the Putin line, sign up for his wish list: break up NATO, do whatever he wants to do. "You continue to get help from him because he has a very clear favorite in this race." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, raBBit said: You think Russia is running America and I have gone off the deep end. It’s not Trump and it’s not Congress...who else is left, the Supreme Court? Trump has many business aspirations in Russia that Putin can make or break. In 1986, Trump met with the Soviet ambassador about building a luxury hotel in Moscow, and announced a potential Trump International complex there. At the 2008 Russian Real Estate Summit, Trump touted plans for condos and hotels in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Sochi. In 2011, he licensed his name to an aborted Azerbaijan hotel for $1 million and promoted a Trump Tower in Kazakhstan. Even as he campaigned for the Republican nomination, Trump signed a letter of intentto build Trump Tower in Moscow. Trump’s business depends heavily on Russian money. Donald Trump Jr. said in 2008 that “Russians make up a … disproportionate cross-section of … our assets,” and later added, “We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.” Eric Trump told a journalist, “We don’t rely on American banks; we have all the funding we need out of Russia.” (He later denied saying that.) In 2008, Deutsche Bank’s real estate group stopped lending to Trump after he defaulted on a $330 million loan. Inexplicably, he subsequently borrowed $75 million from another DB group. European and American regulators punished DB for laundering billions from Moscow. It’s not a huge leap to suspect that Trump’s DB money came from Russia. ... Throughout the 2000s, Russians bought many apartments in Trump Tower and $100 million worth of Trump properties in Florida. But these sales dropped precipitously in 2014 after the U.S. imposed sanctions on Russian oligarchs for the Crimean incursion. Lifting sanctions would likely restore these sales, and the profits would flow through a trust run by Trump's sons, with the president as sole beneficiary. Indeed, Trump admitted that he’d “be looking at” lifting them. salon.com Edited July 17, 2018 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, raBBit said: You think Russia is running America and I have gone off the deep end. In moments like these you have to put personal politics aside and examine the facts and evidence. Based on Trump's behavior and actions, both at home and abroad, you really can't come to any other rational conclusion other than he's Putin's puppet. He's giving Putin everything he wants and then some. I've tried to see if I could convince myself otherwise through an objective lens but I just can't. Edited July 17, 2018 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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