caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 On the plus side, we can practically cut our defense budget down to near zero because North Korea, China and especially Russia are not our foes...the European Union is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 raBBit, I think I made pretty clear that my problem was not with the idea of a US President trying to improve relations with Russia. No one is saying not to do that, so, let's drop that straw man. You are 100% aware of what people are upset about, and it isn't the idea of the two leaders meeting to talk, so stop with that game. I can't get my head around the idea that any American can be OK with Trump, while standing next to the leader of a country who have provably and by all accounts been trying to undermine the US in any way possible (including elections), undercutting his own intelligence agencies. It is inexcusable, even if he does disagree with some of their assessments. It is inexcusable not just because it lacks patriotism, which isn't the point either. It telegraphs to the world that the US is incapable of operating in a complex foreign policy environment. How could you possibly think that is OK? Secondarily, it also makes Trump look even more inept as a leader (though frankly the world already see him as a joke anyway). These are agencies he manages, run by people he nominated, and he's out there saying they are wrong about one of their most important focuses. If that's true (which it's pretty clearly not, but let's play along anyway), then Trump is a useless leader! Nothing in this makes Trump look competent, at all. Finally, just to destroy yet another strawman, no. No, Obama, or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan, would not have been feted or celebrated for doing what Trump did. They would be crucified, and rightly so. How do I know this? Simple - none of those previous Presidents ever did anything like this, because... it is 100% idiotic to do so. They wouldn't have. If it were actually true that they would be celebrated for it, then they would have done it, because all these guys have huge egos. Think it through, man. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, raBBit said: LOL, I am not trying to be rude but this is really just laughable. "Facts and evidence" don't lead to the US POTUS being Putin's puppet. You're being duped. Actually it does. All you have to do is look at his behavior with regard to the Mueller investigation and what happened in Helsinki yesterday and it tells you all you need to know. If he wasn't president and was instead under investigation for murder and had the same behaviors he'd be viewed as guilty as sin. All of the evidence points to him being guilty of collusion at the very least. The only reason why Mueller hasn't come out with it yet is because it is the POTUS and it has to be a slam dunk case. I have zero doubt that he's going to find everything he needs because Trump is a moron. What is laughable is that you keep denying it. Where's that dog in the burning house meme again? The only way "facts and evidence" don't lead to the previous conclusion is if you're listening to hacks like Hannity and Rush, who are so far up Trumps ass they can taste his lunch. You're approaching that territory. I hope you like McDonald's. Everyone is lying except Trump and his apologists. Nobody is to be trusted other than Donald Trump and Vladmir Putin. Ok. Edited July 17, 2018 by Jack Parkman 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For the record too, note that I did not bring up the Mueller investigation or collusion. In fact I'm pretty confident that Trump himself was not part of any collusion. I think some of his close campaign folks MIGHT have been, but Trump himself would have been shielded from it. Trump was of course giddy when he had Russia trying to help him because helping him is good, but I don't think they find any direct collusion. Just my guess. This is not about the Mueller investigation. This is about Trump's stunning level of incompetence, and his treating our friends like enemies while cozying up to some really awful people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 We've all been duped! http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/jul/16/russia-investigation-donald-trump-timeline-updated/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said: For the record too, note that I did not bring up the Mueller investigation or collusion. In fact I'm pretty confident that Trump himself was not part of any collusion. I think some of his close campaign folks MIGHT have been, but Trump himself would have been shielded from it. Trump was of course giddy when he had Russia trying to help him because helping him is good, but I don't think they find any direct collusion. Just my guess. This is not about the Mueller investigation. This is about Trump's stunning level of incompetence, and his treating our friends like enemies while cozying up to some really awful people. Agree on all counts. I personally think the Russian thing started as a deflection from the Wikileaks bombshell about the DNC fixing the race for Hillary. And here we are. Based on my experience of looking at politics objectively, it seems wag the dog fake as fuck, the whole Russia thing. Trump is still a fucking defensive little baby idiot, but I’m not buying any of the Russia stuff. Just a hunch I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said: For the record too, note that I did not bring up the Mueller investigation or collusion. In fact I'm pretty confident that Trump himself was not part of any collusion. I think some of his close campaign folks MIGHT have been, but Trump himself would have been shielded from it. Trump was of course giddy when he had Russia trying to help him because helping him is good, but I don't think they find any direct collusion. Just my guess. This is not about the Mueller investigation. This is about Trump's stunning level of incompetence, and his treating our friends like enemies while cozying up to some really awful people. Re: the Mueller probe, the only thing that is specifically out there right now against Trump is in the most recent complaint against the Russians. They emphasize that the attempts to phish Hillary Clinton began immediately after Trump's infamous, "I will tell you this, Russia: If you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing." I'm not a criminal lawyer, so I don't know what mental state Mueller would have to prove to charge, but that's pretty solid circumstantial evidence that Russia listened to Trump. I doubt Trump intended for Russia to listen, but it's pretty grossly negligent conduct. But yeah, the idea that a sitting President is telling us that Putin and Kim Jong Un are good guys while going after NATO and the UN is pretty staggering. To echo NSS, diplomacy with Russia and North Korea and China is fine. But, he (1) acted tough with China and then unilaterally nixed enforcement against ZTE; (2) took a victory lap on a nuclear North Korea after giving Kim Jong Un the photo op he was looking for (note, since that summit, things have... not gone well with NK); and (3) took the word of Putin over the word of the US intelligence community regarding Russia's hacks of the DNC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said: For the record too, note that I did not bring up the Mueller investigation or collusion. In fact I'm pretty confident that Trump himself was not part of any collusion. I think some of his close campaign folks MIGHT have been, but Trump himself would have been shielded from it. Trump was of course giddy when he had Russia trying to help him because helping him is good, but I don't think they find any direct collusion. Just my guess. This is not about the Mueller investigation. This is about Trump's stunning level of incompetence, and his treating our friends like enemies while cozying up to some really awful people. Incompetence has never been a very good legal defense, as I understand it. Typically, you're expected to know and keep track of what any reasonable person in your situation would know or keep track of. Thus, if collusion was occurring around Trump, his not being aware of it will not save him if it is reasonable to conclude based on the evidence that he should have been aware of it. Of course none of this matters until January 20, 2021 unless Congress decides to move forward with impeachment proceedings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Rosenstein summoned to the White House this morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: Agree on all counts. I personally think the Russian thing started as a deflection from the Wikileaks bombshell about the DNC fixing the race for Hillary. And here we are. Based on my experience of looking at politics objectively, it seems wag the dog fake as fuck, the whole Russia thing. Trump is still a fucking defensive little baby idiot, but I’m not buying any of the Russia stuff. Just a hunch I guess I mean, we know that the Russia investigation started because George Papadopolous, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, told Australia's top US diplomat that Russia had dirt on Hillary Clinton. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/us/politics/how-fbi-russia-investigation-began-george-papadopoulos.html We also know that Russia did in fact hack the DNC - the US intelligence community is unanimous in that assessment, and Mueller details it in pretty exhausting detail in the latest indictments. The full text of the indictment is available at the link below. https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17568806/mueller-russia-intelligence-indictment-full-text So, the Russia thing started in May of 2016. Russia did in fact attempt to influence the election to favor Trump over Clinton. And the investigation into the extent of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia remains ongoing... Now, what "Russia stuff" are you not buying? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Balta1701 said: I think it's actually going to be sickeningly fun replying with the comments of this administration to this post. For example: predictable conservative response is predictable much like his praising of literal Nazi murderers, this won't matter at all in a week or so. e: Edited July 17, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said: I mean, we know that the Russia investigation started because George Papadopolous, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, told Australia's top US diplomat that Russia had dirt on Hillary Clinton. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/us/politics/how-fbi-russia-investigation-began-george-papadopoulos.html We also know that Russia did in fact hack the DNC - the US intelligence community is unanimous in that assessment, and Mueller details it in pretty exhausting detail in the latest indictments. The full text of the indictment is available at the link below. https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17568806/mueller-russia-intelligence-indictment-full-text So, the Russia thing started in May of 2016. Russia did in fact attempt to influence the election to favor Trump over Clinton. And the investigation into the extent of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia remains ongoing... Now, what "Russia stuff" are you not buying? FWIW the Butina indictment yesterday pushes Russian interference in our elections, this time via the GOP and the NRA rather than specifically the Trump campaign, to early 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, raBBit said: I have seen enough of your posts to know we have nothing to talk about it. You aren't nuanced in your politics in any form. It's all bs about you being a victim, the government should have to pay for everything and the republicans are the devil. Nothing constructive will come of me responding to that so for the sake of the board I will ignore that stuff. See, this is why I have a problem with the conservative mindset. It completely ignores reality. I'm not playing the victim card. I take what I have done and accomplished with great pride. I'm only trying to educate people about autism. Do I live off disablity? Yeah. Do I want to? Absolutely not. I'd much rather be working, independent and living on my own than living at home. I still work side jobs to make extra money. I believe that a great pool of talent is being largely ignored by society and that it is society in general's responsiblity to have a place for everyone. The true test of a society's greatness is not how they treat the strong and wealthy, but how they treat the weak and poor. I don't believe in a "market value" on people when it comes to participation in everyday society. Have I made mistakes in my life? Yeah,who hasn't? If saying that being born with a disadvantageous condition and pointing out that fact in order to educate other people about it to make life better for everyone in my situation, how would you like a world where you got into a car accident, are in the hospital for three weeks, and are fired because of your misfortune. I surely don't want to live in a world like that. Do you?I was frustrated because I know I have skills and I'm struggling to fit in. Again, my point is only about education and nothing more. Do I think it sucks, yes. Adaptation is a two way street. I'm willing to give way more to be allowed to be a part of mainstream society. I ask for minimal accommodations. I'm not looking to whine and complain anymore, I'm looking for solutions. Did I whine and complain a few times? Sure, out of frustration. All I was asking was the following: What do I have to do to fit in? Interviewing is a sales job and I suck at it. I'm trying my best. Not to mention some other physical limitations I have that I've been dealing with for 20+ years, that are more detrimental to me maintaining employment than my autism is. This whole "pull yourself out of the gutter" ideology is a complete myth. The reason why the US economy was so strong post WWII was because of the continuation of New Deal policies. As soon as Reagan pulled back those protections, things got worse for everyone. My politics are nuanced, I just don't like right wing whackjobs. The only reason why I don't like the GOP right now is because they've hijacked the entire political system and dragged it so far to the right than anything left of center is considered radical. They have zero integrity whatsoever. There are regulations that exist on companies that are stupid. I've heard them, I know and there are. There has tobe a balance between public and consumer protection from greed and actual functioning business. There also has to be a balance between management and labor. Common sense should be used there. The free market isn't a spontaneous thing. Someone sets the rules for the market, and that is the government. The rules have to be set for what is best for everyone, not what is best for those with capital.(which is what is going on right now) If you can't follow the rules, don't play the game. The only way the common citizen can get ahead and have upward mobility in society is if the rules allow for it. Otherwise, you have Gilded Age levels of wealth distribution, which is very similar to feudalism. If the government sets the rules of the marketplace in the best interest of the entirety of the country, which they did for a while. Then the market can take care of itself. You are only able to "pull yourself out of the gutter" when the rules of the economy are set such that it is possible. It is exponentially harder to do so when the rules are such that it is extremely difficult to attain societal upward mobility. Edited July 17, 2018 by Jack Parkman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Even Fox and Friends ripped Trump. Trump could have pulled a Reagan and told Putin on the stage to quit meddling in the elections. Putin won't stop of course, but Trump would have looked a lot better, but there is more to this, and it has to be the Trump Organization's money train. Trump isn't about America. He isn't about helping people, only himself. That is quite obvious from his history. He has stiffed many a working stiff. Caused several family businesses to go out of business by Mr. Money Bags not paying them. This was all predictable. The crazies have won. Hopefully it can be contained. If you vote republican or 3rd party with no chance of winning for a Senator or Congressmen inNovember, you are voting for Trump and his stupidity going unchecked. Edited July 17, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 13 hours ago, raBBit said: I am not familiar with the quote. What is the implication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So in other words, even though it never happened and it's all fake, it's Obama''s fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, raBBit said: 1.) I was really inquisitive. No one can be specific anymore it's all Trump all the time. I am not playing games or doing anything you're alleging. The whole Russia thing is a farce. Yes, they meddled in the election as they, China and other countries have for decades. They did it in a away that is completely benign compared to what our CIA does abroad. The idea that Trump is controlled by Putin is out off the reservation stupid. 2.) Fuck the intelligence agencies. I don't have some American exceptionalism complex where I think Americans have to speak positively on everything American. That's not how problems are fixed. Our intelligence agencies cause more problems (both here and abroad) than they offer utility. I am well aware that is a bad optics for the President to do that. I wish he'd voice his disapproval for the IC in the way of making tremendously slashes to their budgets and exposing rogue elements of the CIA but what are you going to do. 3.) How can Trump look any more incompetent? Everyday has been in "end of the world" mode since he got elected. Trump's image is not a concern of mine. The rest of the world's opinion on America isn't a concern of mine. He's going to be presented as incompetent regardless of what he does. If his perceived lunacy makes America less involved on a world stage I think it's an unintended benefit of Trump being stubbornly obsessed with maintaining the legitimacy of his election. 4.) Thanks for "destroying" all these strawmen. I am not sure what you specifically are referring to with all this straw man talk but it seems you severely underestimate partisan-ism. If you think this boards regulars wouldn't be praising Obama for doing something of the same as Trump I don't know what to tell you. If you don't think there aren't MAGA people out there praising Trump's action right now you're just wrong. They're all the same. It's not about what politicians do it's about what letter they have next to their name. Subscription to partisanship is willful hypocrisy. 5. Then why aren't you responding to all the people touting that Trump is a puppet of Russia controlled by Putin then? The Trump Derangement Syndrome is sending people off the deep end and they think their conspiracy theories are a matter of fact. If Trump were actually controlled by the Russians Obama's administration would have full knowledge of it as they were surveiling the campaign. The Russia stuff never became an issue until Trump won. It was the FBI's "insurance policy" as they referred to it. The intention from the start was to find a way to impeach Trump and that's straight from a guy leading the investigation efforts. If Trump was actually controlled by a foreign entity I am pretty sure the DC elite would have done away with him. This is where I am at. It's been two years. They can't find anything implicating both Trump's campaign and the Russian hackers working together. When does the money drain end? 1. I never said Trump was controlled by Putin or anything of the sort. He's not. He's mostly just an idiot, and is being duped, but that's not the same. 2. Totally missing the point. Again, let's ASSUME you are right about their incompetence (which I feel you've dramatically exaggerated). You simply do not air them out standing next to an obviously aggressive enemy and give them ammo! That's idiotic and borderline treasonous! That is the very heart of the issue here! 3. The rest of the world's opinion of the US sure as hell better concern you, if you have a concept of how foreign relations work. The US is the most powerful SINGLE country in the world, but if it is the US against almost all the REST of the world, the US is going to lose and lose big in so many ways. Alienating allies who share many common goals is playing Russian Roulette (so many layers of meaning there). 4. This is classic scorched Earth tactics, and interestingly is almost exactly what some of the more liberal people here accused me of. Except I actually acknowledged what should be obvious yet neither you nor they are willing to - that it is never, ever, 100% the same. Nor is it ever absolute when it comes to human beings. Of course the letter after their name matters, but that does not mean they are all the same. Of course there are a lot of bad actors, but not all are. Of course agencies like the FBI and CIA and NSA will have blunders, because they are made of humans, but that does not mean you dismiss them entirely and buddy up with the guys who WANT TO KILL YOU. I mean come on, have some perspective here. 5. I literally, in the post you replied to, did exactly what you are asking me to do. Maybe not in those words, but I specifically said I think that Trump was not directly colluding. I DO think, and it seems pretty obvious at this point, that the Russian meddling was real. I can't see how that can be denied, really. And they did it in a way well beyond anything we've seen in modern times. But that doesn't mean Trump did that himself, which is what I clearly said. And really are you expecting me to reply to every post that I disagree with? That's all I'd do all day, haha. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: How many factual inaccuracies will Congress abide? "Witch hunt headed by Strzok" is just blatantly false. Ignoring the fact that it's not an actual witch hunt, nor is the colloquial use of the term acceptable to describe the Russia investigation, Strzok was never appointed as the head of the investigation. That was Mueller. This is just blatant fabrication at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) lol extremely convincing great job burying the equivocation Reuters Edited July 17, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, StrangeSox said: lol extremely convincing If it wasn't so sad, that would be hysterical. His base will buy it, and have to reverse from defending what he said last night. He could have made himself look really good to all republicans if he really believed what he is saying now and was not fearful of Putin, which he clearly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Putin's Puppet No Russian Interference wait wait let me fix that Putin's Puppet? No, Russian Interference! really makes the idiots in Congress who rushed out to defend him look great lol Edited July 17, 2018 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, raBBit said: If Trump were actually controlled by the Russians Obama's administration would have full knowledge of it as they were surveiling the campaign. The Russia stuff never became an issue until Trump won. It was the FBI's "insurance policy" as they referred to it. The intention from the start was to find a way to impeach Trump and that's straight from a guy leading the investigation efforts. If Trump was actually controlled by a foreign entity I am pretty sure the DC elite would have done away with him. 1) There is no evidence that the Obama administration was "surveiling" the Trump campaign. The FBI sent an informant to talk with Papadopolous, Page and Clovis as part of the Russia investigation that began in May of 2016. Very, very different things. https://www.npr.org/2018/05/24/614028376/fact-check-no-james-clapper-didnt-admit-there-was-spying-on-trump-campaign 2) The Russia stuff was never publicly an issue prior to the election because McConnell threatened to make the issue political (ie, make it look like the Obama administration trying to sink Trump). https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/23/mitch-mcconnell-russia-obama-joe-biden-359531 3) If the FBI had an "insurance policy" to stop Trump from being elected, they... did a really bad job of using that. And if the FBI's plan was to start investigating Trump after he was elected, when a Trump election probably meant the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress, that was... and I can't stress this enough... the dumbest insurance policy ever and showcases a below fourth grade level understanding of civics. 4) Strozk is no longer a part of the Mueller investigation. And the Mueller investigation has indicted... a lot of people. Either they are all ethically compromised, or the more likely fact is true. They are doing their jobs, and we'll see what they ultimately uncover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Well, that settles that! He simply misspoke. https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-putin-helsinki/h_07bbf8f0efaecbe556cf2f1c04eedcd3 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Steve9347 said: Well, that settles that! He simply misspoke. https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-putin-helsinki/h_07bbf8f0efaecbe556cf2f1c04eedcd3 ? he immediately undermined his walk-back though this is Charlottesville all over again. say something horrendous, kinda-sorta walk it back by reading a statement written by your staff, immediately go back to what you originally said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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