White Sox Bullpen Battle

[greg775]

What a colossal waste of money that would be (I know you weren’t suggesting signing him).

 

Cooper may be overrated in some areas, but one area where he’s had consistent success is bullpen arms. We should all know that by now. I love Hahn trying to collect as many lottery tickets as possible for Spring Training, see if you get lucky one 1-2.

Waste of money?? Why do we care about Jerry's money for gosh sakes? We need some real bullpen arms. It won't help the confidence of our young players at all if they get us a 6-1 lead and our pen blows it from the fifth inning on every night. If our starters can take a lead into the sixth, how frustrating to have a bullpen thais bad. This bullpen is going to be historically rotten. Nate Jones is an injury waiting to happen and Soria is laughably bad. The other guys? Nobodys on paper. I mean if we're taking all season again, fine, but the worst way to lose is to have the bullpen suck night after night. Makes the games insufferably long and boring and frustrating.

Edited February 3, 2018 by greg775

[BlackSox13]

At 32, I can see how Holland would be a waste of money for the Sox if these projections are close. His age and contract demands do not coincide with the rebuilding White Sox.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/free...eg-holland.html

 

It’s been reported that Holland began the offseason seeking a five-year deal, which seemed unlikely from the start and is even harder to imagine now. Frankly, it would be quite a shock if Boras was able to find Holland a deal of that length at this point; such a contract would last through his age-37 season and has significant downside considering the health and durability concerns stemming from his 2015 elbow surgery and up-and-down second half in 2017, respectively. At the same time, Holland was able to prove that he’s still a talented strikeout artist, even if he hasn’t bounced back quite to his pre-injury capability in that regard. Considering that even Wade Davis, a superior option, ended up settling for three years, I think Holland’s likely to end up doing the same. A three-year contract with a $39MM guarantee seems like a plausible estimate at this point in the offseason, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up with some performance incentives or a Shaw-esque vesting option for a fourth season.

[BlackSox13]

But it notz my money!!1 sign him!

Valid point. I change my tune. SIGN HOLLAND NOW!!!! Yeehaa!

[BlackSox13]

But it notz my money!!1 sign him!

Dude. We need to create a meme with Alice falling down the rabbit hole with money swirling around her.

[caulfield12]

We sign Holland, we end up one or two spots away in the first round from drafting another Benintendi...creating the need to spend yet another $150-175 million (or Yelich equivalent talent load) on a premiere free agent.

[bmags]

We sign Holland, we end up one or two spots away in the first round from drafting another Benintendi...creating the need to spend yet another $150-175 million (or Yelich equivalent talent load) on a premiere free agent.

 

In that draft we could have just taken Happ.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Waste of money?? Why do we care about Jerry's money for gosh sakes? We need some real bullpen arms. It won't help the confidence of our young players at all if they get us a 6-1 lead and our pen blows it from the fifth inning on every night. If our starters can take a lead into the sixth, how frustrating to have a bullpen thais bad. This bullpen is going to be historically rotten. Nate Jones is an injury waiting to happen and Soria is laughably bad. The other guys? Nobodys on paper. I mean if we're taking all season again, fine, but the worst way to lose is to have the bullpen suck night after night. Makes the games insufferably long and boring and frustrating.

 

This is seriously a cliche at this point. Look, everyone from top to bottom of the organization knows this is still another rebuilding year. The young players will learn, grow and go through rough patches together. You seriously think losses with the bad bullpen blowing the games will break them? In this day and age, wins to a pitchers record is about as meaningless as, well, having a dominate closer on a rebuilding team. If you don't want to watch another long and boring and frustrating season, you should tune away from any Sox games in '18.

 

On the upside? We have stock up both MLB and AAA with hard throwing reclamation projects. With the cost of bullpen arms in the FA market, if we can turn 2-3 of these arms into Kahnle, we will have some cost controlled bullpen arms when we're ready to compete.

[caulfield12]

In that draft we could have just taken Happ.

 

Happ and Schwarber have proven to have minimal or negative defensive value...

[greg775]

This is seriously a cliche at this point. Look, everyone from top to bottom of the organization knows this is still another rebuilding year. The young players will learn, grow and go through rough patches together. You seriously think losses with the bad bullpen blowing the games will break them? In this day and age, wins to a pitchers record is about as meaningless as, well, having a dominate closer on a rebuilding team. If you don't want to watch another long and boring and frustrating season, you should tune away from any Sox games in '18.

 

On the upside? We have stock up both MLB and AAA with hard throwing reclamation projects. With the cost of bullpen arms in the FA market, if we can turn 2-3 of these arms into Kahnle, we will have some cost controlled bullpen arms when we're ready to compete.

I don't see why we have to have the worst bullpen in baseball. I mean our division reeks yet we make no attempt to improve the worst part of our team. Nobody's ever said on the record that our goal is to lose all our games. Look, Detroit and KC arguably reek. That leaves Minnie and Cleveland. Cleveland is the cliche. The Indians haven't completed the deal and unless they are like the old Braves may be ready to have a bad year and play closer to .500 than dominating. Minnie isn't for real. They are cheaper than the Sox organization. I contend if we actually had a closer, a setup guy and let either Soria or Nate be the third reliever we might actually win the damn division.

[SCCWS]

I don't see why we have to have the worst bullpen in baseball. I mean our division reeks yet we make no attempt to improve the worst part of our team. Nobody's ever said on the record that our goal is to lose all our games. Look, Detroit and KC arguably reek. That leaves Minnie and Cleveland. Cleveland is the cliche. The Indians haven't completed the deal and unless they are like the old Braves may be ready to have a bad year and play closer to .500 than dominating. Minnie isn't for real. They are cheaper than the Sox organization. I contend if we actually had a closer, a setup guy and let either Soria or Nate be the third reliever we might actually win the damn division.

 

To start the year, we may have a very mediocre rotation. We all hope it will get better as the young arms get experience, but April to July could be dreary. I hope we have some long relief candidates so when a prospect is having a bad day they can pull him before he pulls something overthrowing.

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

I don't see why we have to have the worst bullpen in baseball. I mean our division reeks yet we make no attempt to improve the worst part of our team. Nobody's ever said on the record that our goal is to lose all our games. Look, Detroit and KC arguably reek. That leaves Minnie and Cleveland. Cleveland is the cliche. The Indians haven't completed the deal and unless they are like the old Braves may be ready to have a bad year and play closer to .500 than dominating. Minnie isn't for real. They are cheaper than the Sox organization. I contend if we actually had a closer, a setup guy and let either Soria or Nate be the third reliever we might actually win the damn division.

 

No we’re not a closer and a setup man away from competing for the division. That type of thinking is what got us stuck in mediocrity for so long.

[Heads22]

And, really, this will be a year to figure out which of the new/young guys are worth keeping.

[greg775]

No we’re not a closer and a setup man away from competing for the division. That type of thinking is what got us stuck in mediocrity for so long.

So you are expecting Cleveland to roll again? I'll never get used to this era where we like losing. Drives me insane. I think not contending in this crap division should be a fireable offense on a yearly basis.

[Sleepy Harold]

So you are expecting Cleveland to roll again? I'll never get used to this era where we like losing. Drives me insane. I think not contending in this crap division should be a fireable offense on a yearly basis.

What "era where we like losing" are you referring to? You mean the rebuild the team is currently in YEAR 2 of? Or are you talking about the run from '07-'16 where we "went for it and spent $" and made the playoffs once (BTW, during that 10 year run, the Sox averaged just over 78 wins while "going for it", only cracking above 85 wins thrice )? What do you have against logically building a controllable team, then filling in the needs once we know what's there greggles? Step off the ledge and breathe man, it'll be ok.

 

It's been stated here numerous times by several different posters that no one really likes losing, just us statniks understand the benefit of losing whilst the White Sox are rebuliding, which makes the losses easier to accept. I'm sure I've wasted my own time here explaining this, but I couldn't help myself.

[oldsox]

What "era where we like losing" are you referring to? You mean the rebuild the team is currently in YEAR 2 of? Or are you talking about the run from '07-'16 where we "went for it and spent $" and made the playoffs once (BTW, during that 10 year run, the Sox averaged just over 78 wins while "going for it", only cracking above 85 wins thrice )? What do you have against logically building a controllable team, then filling in the needs once we know what's there greggles? Step off the ledge and breathe man, it'll be ok.

 

It's been stated here numerous times by several different posters that no one really likes losing, just us statniks understand the benefit of losing whilst the White Sox are rebuliding, which makes the losses easier to accept. I'm sure I've wasted my own time here explaining this, but I couldn't help myself.

Greg has a point. Face it, the majority of the rebuilding efforts have been through trades, not draft picks. The last two Number 1 picks, Burger and Collins, are hardly the cornerstones of the rebuild. If Sox could find a real major league CF, they have what could be a pretty good lineup. I would like to see them go for it, at least until Trading Deadline, and see what happens.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Greg has a point. Face it, the majority of the rebuilding efforts have been through trades, not draft picks. The last two Number 1 picks, Burger and Collins, are hardly the cornerstones of the rebuild. If Sox could find a real major league CF, they have what could be a pretty good lineup. I would like to see them go for it, at least until Trading Deadline, and see what happens.

 

Yea, and half of the the prospects we traded for are still in the minors, the other half barely got their feet wet last year. So what's your point?

[wrathofhahn]

Greg has a point. Face it, the majority of the rebuilding efforts have been through trades, not draft picks. The last two Number 1 picks, Burger and Collins, are hardly the cornerstones of the rebuild. If Sox could find a real major league CF, they have what could be a pretty good lineup. I would like to see them go for it, at least until Trading Deadline, and see what happens.

 

What does one have to do with the other?

 

What concerns me about the lack of picks and IFA is that because of that we don't have a second wave. If a couple of our top prospects bust or we need to make a trade down the line we are in trouble. We need to be more active in IFA. We could also use a couple more trades this time targeting HS/IFA guys high upside guys. Dodgers have a ton of them.

 

Our guys at the bottom of the system are old.

[BlackSox13]

STOP

 

[Sleepy Harold]

Greg has a point. Face it, the majority of the rebuilding efforts have been through trades, not draft picks. The last two Number 1 picks, Burger and Collins, are hardly the cornerstones of the rebuild. If Sox could find a real major league CF, they have what could be a pretty good lineup. I would like to see them go for it, at least until Trading Deadline, and see what happens.

 

Yea, and half of the the prospects we traded for are still in the minors, the other half barely got their feet wet last year. So what's your point?

 

I'm not really sure what you're going after here or what Greg's point exactly is that you're going to bat for. I know that the White Sox rebuild was "unconventional" in a sense considering the assets the Sox had to trade away were incredibly valuable and did a 180 to the farm system once the deals were completed. But the trades and subsequent hauls received are the main reason that the rebuild has been expedited that your typical rebuild goes by solely building through drafting and sign & flip guys. The Sox were still trying to win in '15 & '16 so our last two top picks were both "pre-rebuild" slots at 10 & 11 (which goes to show how awful that "going for it" mentality worked out then). I was just curious as to what there is against "logically building a controllable team" which would include all of trades/drafts/intl signings and not just going to spend $ on middling FAs because it's burning a hole in our pockets.

 

Like 2005 said, the majority of our prospects, including the recent picks, are all in the minors. If things go according to plan, we'll see a few more debut this year, and we'll get to watch how the rest progress through the minors this season to truly get an idea of what we have and what we'll need to go get moving forward (in addition to drafting at the #4 slot this year, which will also help the talent on the farm). The players that have debuted for the Sox have less than a half year of MLB time under their belts so they still need to develop and learn now at the MLB level. I think it'd be a bit overly optimistic to believe that a rotation anchored by 3 "rookies" (at least until Rodon comes back), a bullpen that is filled with reclamation projects, and a lineup with several "rookieish" players won't suffer bumps and bruises during the year as they learn at MLB level. 2018 is an important development year, we just need to be patient and let it play out. Hell, if the Sox play out of their minds and surprise the MLB I'm all for it, but I'm not really expecting that to happen.

 

 

[Sleepy Harold]

What does one have to do with the other?

 

What concerns me about the lack of picks and IFA is that because of that we don't have a second wave. If a couple of our top prospects bust or we need to make a trade down the line we are in trouble. We need to be more active in IFA. We could also use a couple more trades this time targeting HS/IFA guys high upside guys. Dodgers have a ton of them.

 

Our guys at the bottom of the system are old.

Hopefully now we'll start seeing some of these INTL signing guys starting to make some noise. There are a couple interesting dudes (albeit at lower levels) but when you have to build it literally from the ground up it's going to take some time to bear fruit. I'm hoping this draft we'll see an influx of good HS talent to try and level out some of the talent distribution, and it should be more feasible picking at 4 rather than picking mid round every year.

[GreenSox]

I don't really believe in spring training competition anymore. They start out with a 25-man roster, and if they stay healthy, that's who they go with.

 

Just a guess, if healthy-

L- Avilan, Cedeno

R- Farquhar, Infante, Minaya, Jones, Soria

There's a distinct lack of youth; Infante and Minaya are inexperienced (and both pitched well in garbage-time September) but not young.

The rest are decliners or re-treads. Well it seemed to me that Soria and Avilan were acquired solely to be flipped (no other reason to acquire them) so hopefully a few will have good years and can be moved by July, to create some room for younger players.

Edited February 4, 2018 by GreenSox

[ron883]

Greg doesn't want the sox to win a world series. Hed rather the sox go back to the 2005-2016 approach where Kenny sells off all the prospects and fields fringe playoff teams with "entertaining" bozos like Ozzie Guillen amusing him.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I actually think the bullpen is decent to start the year. They'll take a big chunk out of it though by dealing players. If Nate Jones is healthy, he'll bring back a lot in a deal. Soria, Avilan and some of these NRI's could be very tradeable as well. White Sox have a lot of relief pitching prospects as well that could be seen as high leverage types. This is exactly what they should be doing right now.

[Y2Jimmy0]

On paper this is a miserable bullpen. Nate and Soria are very bad and they are the best of the bunch. Sign Holland or lose 105 games

 

 

They aren't going to lose 105 games. I'm not going to argue with you because your points are always the same but I will tell you why Holland isn't happening. The Sox would have to pay Holland a lot of money. They'd also have to forfeit the 45th or so pick in the draft and the slot money that goes with him to do it. The Sox are rebuilding. That would be incredibly short-sighted decision making and that's why it won't happen. Holland also doesn't really move the meter for this team.They can win 70-75 with or without him.

[Jerksticks]

I actually think the bullpen is decent to start the year. They'll take a big chunk out of it though by dealing players. If Nate Jones is healthy, he'll bring back a lot in a deal. Soria, Avilan and some of these NRI's could be very tradeable as well. White Sox have a lot of relief pitching prospects as well that could be seen as high leverage types. This is exactly what they should be doing right now.

I’m with you. There’s a way to bend the light and see a dominant bullpen, potentially. There’s just so much gas- almost 800 mph worth. I felt the same way going into ‘07 so it could all Sisco on us really quick.