Mlb.com top prospects

[oldsox]

So they only get dinged for trading him. Apparently they don't get any credit at all for scouting him and signing him. This is exactly why people get so angry about the trading getting brought up ad naseum.

Yes, they did scout him and did sign him. In fact they gave Tatis a pretty big signing bonus -- something like $2.5 million, IIRC. Then they never gave him a chance to play, trading him for arguably the worst player then in the majors.

It's a head shaker.

[zisk]

It's also shocking considering how the Tatis trade has been beaten to death on this board. We get it, it was a TERRIBLE trade then, TERRIBLE trade now, and will be a TERRIBLE trade in 5 seasons. I assume Rick Hahn would tell you the same thing, and he absolutely deserves to wear it for that awful move.

 

What else do you want us to do? It's time to move on.

 

 

If anyone should be blamed, my choice would be Kenny Williams. I'll bet he was the one pushing that trade. Some times employees do things

 

because the boss insists, not because they think it's a good idea.

[Chicago White Sox]

So they only get dinged for trading him. Apparently they don't get any credit at all for scouting him and signing him. This is exactly why people get so angry about the trading getting brought up ad naseum.

I’m just not sure how much credit I give them for scouting him. If they had any idea what they had on their plates, they never would of traded him, at least not for James Shields. To me, that’s a huge reason this trade makes me sick to my stomach. He’s the only guy we’ve actually signed out of LatAm who has made a real impact stateside and we gave him up before he even came to the US. Preller straight-up out-scouted us on a guy in our own system. That’s the biggest issue I have with the trade.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes, they did scout him and did sign him. In fact they gave Tatis a pretty big signing bonus -- something like $2.5 million, IIRC. Then they never gave him a chance to play, trading him for arguably the worst player then in the majors.

It's a head shaker.

They gave him $825k which isn’t that much. Hell, they gave Franklin $1.5M in that signing class.

[FloydBannister1983]

If anyone should be blamed, my choice would be Kenny Williams. I'll bet he was the one pushing that trade. Some times employees do things

 

because the boss insists, not because they think it's a good idea.

 

These guys have really got it made. They must laugh when they're together how easy it is. If something goes wrong it's obviously Kenny Williams and Hahn's hands are clean. If something goes right it's "Hahn's a genius and pulled a fast one." These guys have jobs for life as long as they continue the good cop-bad cop routine.

 

[FT35]

I'm sort of over the trade but I hope Tatis is a teachable moment and they correct whatever caused them to mis-evaluate him so badly.

 

I think some of that teachable moment is this: Sometimes I think our evaluations are too often 1. "sure he's a hot mess right now, but he's had good years in the past...maybe he just needs a change of scenery." and/or 2. "Coop'll fix him." The effect is that we end up with numerous "project" guys and our coaching staff is run thin on how much they can help everyone. Their time is spent getting players back to the "satisfactory" production level--from mess to good, rather than taking players to the NEXT level--from good to great. Problem is, that we've had enough times where that's worked that they keep pouring resources into that philosophy--which is at best break-even and that's debatable.

 

Also...one simple, yet frequent mistake that a lot of teams make is the gross underestimation of a player's performance level when switching leagues--in particular a NL player coming to the AL. It's hard enough to figure out opponents in 1 league--let alone both. Obviously, again, there are success stories in there, but most of the time you get struggles and long adjustment periods for average and even above average players who switch leagues.

 

[soxfan49]

For those of you that follow these specific Sox prospects, can you give MLB comps for the following:

 

Jimenez

Dunning

Kopech

Hanson

Robert

[southsider2k5]

Yes, they did scout him and did sign him. In fact they gave Tatis a pretty big signing bonus -- something like $2.5 million, IIRC. Then they never gave him a chance to play, trading him for arguably the worst player then in the majors.

It's a head shaker.

 

Uh, no. Try again.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

For those of you that follow these specific Sox prospects, can you give MLB comps for the following:

 

Jimenez

Dunning

Kopech

Hanson

Robert

 

 

Eloy to me = Jermaine Dye. Kopech = Syndergaard

[bmags]

comps are so silly.

 

All you are going to get for Hansen is some major leaguer that's really tall, Jimenez a big power hitter, Kopech someone that throws hard, and Dunning somebody that wears glasses.

 

Nobody knows what Robert really looks like yet on this board at least. But he'll probably get comped to a Cuban.

[wrathofhahn]

So they only get dinged for trading him. Apparently they don't get any credit at all for scouting him and signing him. This is exactly why people get so angry about the trading getting brought up ad naseum.

 

I think if he was properly scouted he would have never been moved and if Shields was properly scouted he would have been never traded for. It wasn't like Tatis was part of some reverse Sale trade he was traded for a terrible pitcher who was pitching awful when he was acquired. Or to use another example remember when the Jays traded for Donaldson and it was some A ball player I think it was Barreto(sic) well he was ranked 33rd last year if memory serves. I think they got him plus Lawrie. That's sort of how you would have liked Tatis used in a trade but clearly the FO didn't think he was an up and coming prospect. Like I said they need to evaluate what ever processes led them to there because it was a huge miss.

 

This is why everytime I read us connected to some sort of trade like Machado or Yelich I cringe not only because I don't think were ready because I'm not sure I trust the FO to decide which of the top prospects to trade or keep.

[southsider2k5]

comps are so silly.

 

All you are going to get for Hansen is some major leaguer that's really tall, Jimenez a big power hitter, Kopech someone that throws hard, and Dunning somebody that wears glasses.

 

Nobody knows what Robert really looks like yet on this board at least. But he'll probably get comped to a Cuban.

 

From the skillset that is talked about, the name Jackie Bradley Jr comes to mind. No idea what he actually looks like though. Another is Andrew McCutcheon with better defense.

[southsider2k5]

I think if he was properly scouted he would have never been moved and if Shields was properly scouted he would have been never traded for. It wasn't like Tatis was part of some reverse Sale trade he was traded for a terrible pitcher who was pitching awful when he was acquired. Or to use another example remember when the Jays traded for Donaldson and it was some A ball player I think it was Barreto(sic) well he was ranked 33rd last year if memory serves. I think they got him plus Lawrie. That's sort of how you would have liked Tatis used in a trade but clearly the FO didn't think he was an up and coming prospect. Like I said they need to evaluate what ever processes led them to there because it was a huge miss.

 

This is why everytime I read us connected to some sort of trade like Machado or Yelich I cringe not only because I don't think were ready because I'm not sure I trust the FO to decide which of the top prospects to trade or keep.

 

Solid gymnastics to be pissed about both ends of things.

[bmags]

From the skillset that is talked about, the name Jackie Bradley Jr comes to mind. No idea what he actually looks like though. Another is Andrew McCutcheon with better defense.

 

2016 Jackie Bradley jr is my ideal scenario yes.

[FT35]

comps are so silly.

 

All you are going to get for Hansen is some major leaguer that's really tall, Jimenez a big power hitter, Kopech someone that throws hard, and Dunning somebody that wears glasses.

 

Nobody knows what Robert really looks like yet on this board at least. But he'll probably get comped to a Cuban.

 

Yes and no...you're right about the physical aspect--those comps don't really serve a good purpose. But when you're trying to analyze a prospect's game and you can put a big leaguer's skill-set out there as a comp--it helps people understand the type of player they are shaping up to be. It's not a good gauge of certainty, but it gives people ideas.

 

The Moncada/Robinson Cano comp was a good one as long as you don't look at Moncada and expect him to turn out like Cano. The short, compact swing compares well, the skill set compares well--the stat range compares well (solid average, good batter's eye, some pop) and the potential for stardom compares well. It gives someone who might not follow prospects a little baseline in their understanding and expectations. When they see a name like Robinson Cano linked to Moncada's name (and not Yolmer Sanchez), they think...hmm...he's not your average prospect and has a pretty high ceiling. As long as you treat comps with that mindset, I don't mind it.

 

The way you know player comps are valid is that you know when there's a bad comp! Tim Anderson doesn't comp to Frank Thomas but more people nod when you say "Orlando Cabrera." When Billy Hamilton came up--you didn't see many Rickey Henderson comps even though they were both stolen base kings because there was no power/consistent average component to Hamilton's game...the comp was always Vince Coleman--which is still a pretty decent comp.

 

 

[oldsox]

Uh, no. Try again.

Okay, tell me the amount of the bonus we gave Tatis.

[bmags]

Okay, tell me the amount of the bonus we gave Tatis.

 

825k, almost half of their top signing that class, Franklin Reyes, who was paid 1.5 million.

 

Adolfo was our highest non-robert signing in the newer structure at 1.6 million.

[oldsox]

Right; I just looked it up, too. My mistake. Still, it seems strange that we sign a kid for that much and then trade him before he ever played professionally.

[bmags]

It wasn't that much but you'd hope they do better.

 

It is interesting going through our signings, it definitely seems like the white sox prioritized power in INTL FA but the hit tools have rarely come around. As CWS as pointed out, too many have also been transitioned to corners immediately.

 

I would like them to target some heady baseball players with great athletic skills and see if power comes than this approach.

[chitownsportsfan]

Yes and no...you're right about the physical aspect--those comps don't really serve a good purpose. But when you're trying to analyze a prospect's game and you can put a big leaguer's skill-set out there as a comp--it helps people understand the type of player they are shaping up to be. It's not a good gauge of certainty, but it gives people ideas.

 

The Moncada/Robinson Cano comp was a good one as long as you don't look at Moncada and expect him to turn out like Cano. The short, compact swing compares well, the skill set compares well--the stat range compares well (solid average, good batter's eye, some pop) and the potential for stardom compares well. It gives someone who might not follow prospects a little baseline in their understanding and expectations. When they see a name like Robinson Cano linked to Moncada's name (and not Yolmer Sanchez), they think...hmm...he's not your average prospect and has a pretty high ceiling. As long as you treat comps with that mindset, I don't mind it.

 

The way you know player comps are valid is that you know when there's a bad comp! Tim Anderson doesn't comp to Frank Thomas but more people nod when you say "Orlando Cabrera." When Billy Hamilton came up--you didn't see many Rickey Henderson comps even though they were both stolen base kings because there was no power/consistent average component to Hamilton's game...the comp was always Vince Coleman--which is still a pretty decent comp.

 

yea well said but just to add onto the Moncada and Cano thing -- it's the swing. Moncada, at least from his favored left side, is almost a dead ringer for a young Cano, especially when he turns on one.

[mcbrides]

If anyone should be blamed, my choice would be Kenny Williams. I'll bet he was the one pushing that trade. Some times employees do things

 

because the boss insists, not because they think it's a good idea.

 

I'm kinda on that bandwagon myself. Kenny had proven that those are the kind of trades he

was apt to make.

[Dick Allen]

I'm pretty sure Tatis never played a game in the White Sox organization, so he basically was a $825k bonus guy traded for a guy they wanted to be a 5th starter. It may blow up in their face, in fact, Shields already has, but if you dig deep, it isn't as bad initially as one would think.

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm pretty sure Tatis never played a game in the White Sox organization, so he basically was a $825k bonus guy traded for a guy they wanted to be a 5th starter. It may blow up in their face, in fact, Shields already has, but if you dig deep, it isn't as bad initially as one would think.

 

Yeah and the possibility exists that Tatis flops.

[southsider2k5]

The fact that the Padres also conned the White Sox on Shields medicals also keeps getting left out of the debate.

[wrathofhahn]

The fact that the Padres also conned the White Sox on Shields medicals also keeps getting left out of the debate.

 

Possibly it's hard to feel sorry for and give the benefit of the doubt considering his own history *cough* Mike Sirotka. I do know the Red Sox were given the option of avoiding the trade so if they did some real shady stuff we would have had the same opportunity.