Moustakas linked to Sox again

[Lillian]

This is absolutely mind-boggling to me. You’d actually pass a significantly better player because of a desire to have a more balance lineup in terms of handedness. You realize that Machado & Donaldson are just as good against RHP (if not better) than Moustakas is right? But they bring much overall ability to the table. Regardless, focusing on building the most perfectly balanced lineup this early into a rebuild is a dangerous game. The goal first & foremost should be talent accumulation (preferably impact talent) and worrying about it all fits together later on.

 

To be more precise; I would prefer the left handed bat at $12 Million, for 5 years, to the Super Star right handed hitter, at $35 Million, for 10 years. That preference stems from the fact that we already have several potential Super Stars, and all but one of them, hit right handed. If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas.

[Bob Sacamano]

Pretty much a guarantee we are talking less then a handful I can't remember another guy other then Stras.

 

And Stras still got paid very well for a guy with pretty checkered injury history. It wasn't like a huge discount for a guy throwing 200+ innings consistently in his career.

Edited February 23, 2018 by soxfan2014

[Dick Allen]

I just listed twelve guys for six relief roles and acknowledged there are other major league quality arms I’m ignoring. I fail to see how I’m being optimistic here. Burdi & Cease project as impact relievers. Filling out the rest is simply a numbers game.

There are a heck of a lot of guys who project to things they never become. I hope all the White Sox prospects reach to their projections and above, but it's not realistic to not think at least half of these guys are going to face plant. If they don't, it's gravy, but right now Eloy, Moncada, Hansen, Kopech, Robert, are all future 9 figure contract guys. Hopefully, 2 are.

[caulfield12]

Pretty much a guarantee we are talking less then a handful I can't remember another guy other then Stras.

 

 

Currently, five teams (the Blue Jays, A's, Braves, Reds and Giants) don't have a single player represented by Boras on their Major League roster. Ten other teams only have one. The Blue Jays, in fact, have been so stringent with their free-agent hauls that Boras publicly questioned their club policy against signing players to anything more than a five-year deal.

 

Interesting...the Nationals have SEVEN.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/10697...c-nationals-mlb

 

[caulfield12]

There are a heck of a lot of guys who project to things they never become. I hope all the White Sox prospects reach to their projections and above, but it's not realistic to not think at least half of these guys are going to face plant. If they don't, it's gravy, but right now Eloy, Moncada, Hansen, Kopech, Robert, are all future 9 figure contract guys. Hopefully, 2 are.

 

Or...really really stretching (Garcia repeats his 4-5 WAR 2017)

 

Avi Garcia

Micker Adolfo (raw talent-wise)

Collins becomes an All-Star catcher

Anderson averages 3-4 WAR and hits FA while still quite young

Carlos Rodon

 

Out of those ten...how many will ever sign a $100+ deal?

[Kyyle23]

To be more precise; I would prefer the left handed bat at $12 Million, for 5 years, to the Super Star right handed hitter, at $35 Million, for 10 years. That preference stems from the fact that we already have several potential Super Stars, and all but one of them, hit right handed. If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas.

 

Honestly this is sillier than you wanting Grady Sizemore batting cleanup for what seemed like 3 straight years that he didn’t play ball for anyone. Forgoing a superstar player simply because he hits right handed is more than mind boggling

[GreenSox]

So many moving pieces...Rutherford, Collins/Zavala, Cease, Burdi, Burger, Adolfo, Dunning...need to not flame out, or at least hit expectations.

 

With the Cubs, it is now an incredible young catcher, Happ and Hendricks offsetting Soler, Schwarber and Zobrist/Heyward (obviously, the last two contributed something in 2016). But even the Cubs are playing with fire on the bullpen side of the equation, as well as the health of Lester/Darvish.

 

 

We all know that only Buehrle and Garland came out of that incredible BA #1 1999-2000 pitching group...and that the real keys were nearly perfect trades for Garcia and Contreras to put them over the top.

The Astros have Springer, Correa, Altuve as stars. Probably Bregman too. Cubs have Rizzo, Bryant and Contreras.

Will the Sox have 3 or 4 young players at that level in 2 years? I doubt it. I think they'll have a number at the Happ level, however. Which is why I want them to stockpile the pitching. Astros and Cubs were light on pitching - Sox can get their championship via a different route....closer to the Royals: solid across the board, with top shelf pitching.

The best 3 eras of the Sox in my life had starting pitching as the greatest strength: 83, 93 and 05.

 

Castillo?

Yea, meant Gurriel. I was thinking of Rusney Castillo I guess

[caulfield12]

The Astros have Springer, Correa, Altuve as stars. Probably Bregman too. Cubs have Rizzo, Bryant and Contreras.

Will the Sox have 3 or 4 young players at that level in 2 years? I doubt it. I think they'll have a number at the Happ level, however. Which is why I want them to stockpile the pitching. Astros and Cubs were light on pitching - Sox can get their championship via a different route....closer to the Royals: solid across the board, with top shelf pitching.

The best 3 eras of the Sox in my life had starting pitching as the greatest strength: 83, 93 and 05.

 

 

Yea, meant Gurriel. I was thinking of Rusney Castillo I guess

 

The Royals’ blueprint was

 

1) Bullpen

2) Defense

3) Speed/aggressiveness

4) Contact hitters...moving the line

5) Just enough starting pitching

 

I worry about the defense and bullpen (raw pieces are there, along with one FA signing)...and obviously making more contact offensively.

 

The advantage SHOULD be starting pitching and power hitting.

 

At that time (2014-16), speed/defense/bullpen was completely undervalued. No longer the case, to exploit those market inefficiencies, just like the Pirates did with pitch framing and relying on infield defense and sinkerball pitchers.

Edited February 23, 2018 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

To be more precise; I would prefer the left handed bat at $12 Million, for 5 years, to the Super Star right handed hitter, at $35 Million, for 10 years. That preference stems from the fact that we already have several potential Super Stars, and all but one of them, hit right handed. If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas.

 

I think one of the under-posted arguments to NOT settling for a guy like Moustakas is in the bolded of your post above.

 

A bunch of these guys ARE going to flame out. More than likely, when we find ourselves on the fringes of contention, we will have a couple big holes to fill, and the math that you just described may very well apply. It may make a ton of sense to fill those holes with "just solid" players if we already have superstars elsewhere. The problem with doing that NOW is that we don't know which guys are going to be the busts and thus which spots we need to fill, so we'd be forced to guess.

 

There is value in the flexibility of holding our money back until we can spend it in the most optimal way.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[Lillian]

Honestly this is sillier than you wanting Grady Sizemore batting cleanup for what seemed like 3 straight years that he didn’t play ball for anyone. Forgoing a superstar player simply because he hits right handed is more than mind boggling

 

I don't understand why some of you continue to completely ignore the issue of money. If you read what I just posted, I clearly stated the difference in the cost, as being a critical component of my preference. I said; "If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas". Ignoring money might be excused, when talking about a few dollars, but not when it involves hundreds of millions of dollars.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

RE: Money.

 

Why, as I have read on these boards, do the Sox have money to trade for Matt Kemp if a prospect comes along, have money to trade for Corey Dickerson to DH, have money to sign Manny Machado or Josh Donaldson. But if they sign Mike Moustakas to a team friendly contract, they have pretty much used all of their capital, and are screwed moving forward?

[Eminor3rd]

RE: Money.

 

Why, as I have read on these boards, do the Sox have money to trade for Matt Kemp if a prospect comes along, have money to trade for Corey Dickerson to DH, have money to sign Manny Machado or Josh Donaldson. But if they sign Mike Moustakas to a team friendly contract, they have pretty much used all of their capital, and are screwed moving forward?

 

The difference is that Matt Kemp's money only covers two years and would purchase a sub-market asset with 6 years of control. It would be spending money now to save money in the future.

[Kyyle23]

I don't understand why some of you continue to completely ignore the issue of money. If you read what I just posted, I clearly stated the difference in the cost, as being a critical component of my preference. I said; "If you take the money out of the equation, of course I would prefer Machado, to Moustakas". Ignoring money might be excused, when talking about a few dollars, but not when it involves hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

Come on, you can’t be seriously telling me it’s about money when almost every post in this entire thread you say you prefer a “left handed, middle of the order, power bat”. I mean goddamn, don’t try and change your position to make it look like you are hoping the Sox are financially more responsible when they will have a bottom of the barrel payroll when it is time to spend on Machado

[caulfield12]

I think one of the under-posted arguments to NOT settling for a guy like Moustakas is in the bolded of your post above.

 

A bunch of these guys ARE going to flame out. More than likely, when we find ourselves on the fringes of contention, we will have a couple big holes to fill, and the math that you just described may very well apply. It may make a ton of sense to fill those holes with "just solid" players if we already have superstars elsewhere. The problem with doing that NOW is that we don't know which guys are going to be the busts and thus which spots we need to fill, so we'd be forced to guess.

 

The flexibility of holding our money back until we can spend it in the most optimal way has value.

 

This is a couple of years out of date...at that point we were 12th in MLB.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/estimated-t...l-30-mlb-teams/

 

We keep talking about low ratings (see Astros 2012-14), but we share significant revenues due to the Cubs, Bulls, Blackhawks...so we need to do whatever is possible between now and mid 2019 to push that $50 million up to $100 million. These new deals have all been 20+ years, so it’s the single most critical factor for long term franchise stability/viability.

 

Mariners, no playoffs, $2 billion, 20 years (signed Cano, Cruz, Hernandez extension)

Rangers, $1.6 billion, 20 years

Phillies, 25-year deal and the Philadelphia Inquirer reported it is worth more than $2.5 billion, with the Phillies also acquiring an equity stake in the network, plus receiving advertising revenue.

 

 

The Mariners New TV Deal Gives Added Flexibility, But Will They Use It?

The Mariners get a new lucrative TV deal before the bubble bursts. The question is, with no stadium/corporate franchise debt, how will they use it?

 

https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/4/19/42...ctv-maury-brown

 

 

 

 

[OmarComing25]

The Astros had a historically good offense last year and the Yankees lineup this year could break the homerun record. Neither lineup has a middle of the order left handed bat. I don’t care what hand a guy uses just give me the better player. Same goes for pitchers.

[Eminor3rd]

[/b]

 

This is a couple of years out of date...at that point we were 12th in MLB.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/estimated-t...l-30-mlb-teams/

 

We keep talking about low ratings (see Astros 2012-14), but we share significant revenues due to the Cubs, Bulls, Blackhawks...so we need to do whatever is possible between now and mid 2019 to push that $50 million up to $100 million. These new deals have all been 20+ years, so it’s the single most critical factor for long term franchise stability/viability.

 

Mariners, no playoffs, $2 billion, 20 years (signed Cano, Cruz, Hernandez extension)

Rangers, $1.6 billion, 20 years

Phillies, 25-year deal and the Philadelphia Inquirer reported it is worth more than $2.5 billion, with the Phillies also acquiring an equity stake in the network, plus receiving advertising revenue.

 

 

The Mariners New TV Deal Gives Added Flexibility, But Will They Use It?

The Mariners get a new lucrative TV deal before the bubble bursts. The question is, with no stadium/corporate franchise debt, how will they use it?

 

https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/4/19/42...ctv-maury-brown

 

It doesn't matter how much the Sox are ultimately willing to spend -- the point is that there's a limit. And if there's a limit, then it behooves us to spend our resources wisely.

 

[Dick Allen]

The difference is that Matt Kemp's money only covers two years and would purchase a sub-market asset with 6 years of control. It would be spending money now to save money in the future.

Theoretically. But if you're paying Matt Kemp $23 million this year and next, do you really think Manny Machado is a possiblity?

 

The facts are, it doesn't add up. Kemp alone will be paid not too much less than Moustakas will ultimately sign for. So if trading for Matt Kemp wasn't going to prevent the White Sox from spending a ton in free agency, neither will signing Moustakas, and you have a back up plan already in place, just in case the $300 million + man, and the $150 million + middle 30s man somehow defy all logic and odds and don't choose the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

The difference is that Matt Kemp's money only covers two years and would purchase a sub-market asset with 6 years of control. It would be spending money now to save money in the future.

 

Then create a realistic option/opt after 2 or 3 years that’s acceptable to both sides, keeping him off the 2018/19 market.

 

He would only be 31-32 then, so not precluding one big shot at a final lifetime deal of 4-5 years...

[bmags]

You are way too optimistic about White Sox prospects.

 

It's one of the reasons why the bullpen strategy is interesting though. Some articles have noted either Haber or Fabian talking about how with bullpens being so valuable, draft relief arms might be an inefficiency to exploit.

 

And we don't really count up our bullpen prospects because it seems so risk-filled and we have less info on them. But there is a conscious collection of guys such as Burdi, Hamilton, Veiera, Burr, Henzman, T. Johnson that all have interesting arms, as well as the likelihood of some failed starters maybe being dynamite in relief.

 

It's a bit counting your chickens before they hatch, but sox specifically tried to make the above happen so it's interesting to see if it either works in the majors or provides them with trade chips.

[caulfield12]

It's one of the reasons why the bullpen strategy is interesting though. Some articles have noted either Haber or Fabian talking about how with bullpens being so valuable, draft relief arms might be an inefficiency to exploit.

 

And we don't really count up our bullpen prospects because it seems so risk-filled and we have less info on them. But there is a conscious collection of guys such as Burdi, Hamilton, Veiera, Burr, Henzman, T. Johnson that all have interesting arms, as well as the likelihood of some failed starters maybe being dynamite in relief.

 

It's a bit counting your chickens before they hatch, but sox specifically tried to make the above happen so it's interesting to see if it either works in the majors or provides them with trade chips.

 

Royals finding market inefficiency in low-risk reclamations

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/royals-findin...23694--mlb.html

 

Similar concept...Chris Young, Blanton, Madson, Medlen (didn’t work out) etc.

 

We have/had Kahnle (sold low?), Swarzak, Jennings, (Crain going further back) and now a TON of reclamation guys along with 10-12 legit young prospects (including Burdi/Cease/Lopez/Fulmer.)

 

But that original KC pen was an absolute monster...Herrera, Hochevar, Collins, W.Davis and Holland.

And the Twins actually did the same thing, two distinct cycles, from 2002-2010.

Edited February 23, 2018 by caulfield12

[roto]

I'm not a huge Moustakas fan but if he's truely marked down to a bargain price I don't understand the hesitance in buying. I'll give all of the skeptics the argument that he's not a guy that's going to carry you to the next WS title but neither is Yolmer. You have one other 3B in your top 30 and he's several years away if he doesn't flame out like Michealewski. He's a left handed power bat where you have only Delmonico on the current active roster. Hahn's not an idiot, he knows a price that Boras will accept rather than look like he failed his client. He also knows the "value" of a 45 pick and of what he can do with the bonus money. If those two numbers favor the Sox then I'm confident he'll jump on it. If Moose is truly a bargain I wouldn't worry about finding a spot for a better 3B because someone will always take a bargain off your hands. I'd be more worried about feeling the pressure (once you've missed Machado of going into your window without an experienced LH power hitter to protect your RH run producers and then making another Dunn/LaRoche mistake. He's an American League, LH power hitter with passable defensive capabilities that "the current market" is going to hand you on a silver platter. Take it and then work on the upgrade without the pressure.

[bmags]

Royals finding market inefficiency in low-risk reclamations

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/royals-findin...23694--mlb.html

 

Similar concept...Chris Young, Blanton, Madson, Medlen (didn’t work out) etc.

 

We have/had Kahnle (sold low?), Swarzak, Jennings, (Crain going further back) and now a TON of reclamation guys along with 10-12 legit young prospects (including Burdi/Cease/Lopez/Fulmer.)

 

But that original KC pen was an absolute monster...Herrera, Hochevar, Collins, W.Davis and Holland.

And the Twins actually did the same thing, two distinct cycles, from 2002-2010.

 

Ok but I'm talking about drafted arms.

[Dick Allen]

Ok but I'm talking about drafted arms.

Some thought Burdi was a reach in the first round due to being a reliever, but if he becomes elite, or just a guy you can rely on, it's a great pick. Not every first rounder is a superstar.

[caulfield12]

Ok but I'm talking about drafted arms.

 

Sure, but we need to utilize ALL avenues.

 

The Red Sox and Cards have succeeded with a plethora of Japanese and Koreans...when’s the last time we did/tried that...Iguchi and Takatsu.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

For the record I have still yet to see anyone reputable saying that the Sox ARE TALKING to Moose, and not that he is the best logical fit for Moose.