Moustakas linked to Sox again

[Dick Allen]

For the record I have still yet to see anyone reputable saying that the Sox ARE TALKING to Moose, and not that he is the best logical fit for Moose.

I don't think there would be much discussion considering the agent. I'm pretty sure if there will be a signing, it would be to the White Sox liking contract wise. So, I would think for that to happen, just about all other avenues will have to have been exhausted, and he still has the spring training injury door that hasn't closed.

[Eminor3rd]

Theoretically. But if you're paying Matt Kemp $23 million this year and next, do you really think Manny Machado is a possiblity?

 

The facts are, it doesn't add up. Kemp alone will be paid not too much less than Moustakas will ultimately sign for. So if trading for Matt Kemp wasn't going to prevent the White Sox from spending a ton in free agency, neither will signing Moustakas, and you have a back up plan already in place, just in case the $300 million + man, and the $150 million + middle 30s man somehow defy all logic and odds and don't choose the White Sox.

 

What? Matt Kemp's deal is two years, and he is an OF who won't even necessarily demand playing time. The hypothetical being used through this entire thread is that Moustakas would come on a 4-5 year deal, and he plays the SAME POSITION as Machado. How can you possibly think that has the same effect?

 

You seriously think the White Sox wouldn't give Machado a ten year deal because they'd have to carry Kemp's dead money in year one?

 

You seriously think the White Sox having $12-15mm committed to third base already for 5 years WOULDN'T affect their willingness to get Machado?

Edited February 23, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

What? Matt Kemp's deal is two years, and he is an OF who won't even necessarily demand playing time. The hypothetical being used through this entire thread is that Moustakas would come on a 4-5 year deal, and he plays the SAME POSITION as Machado. How can you possibly think that has the same effect?

 

You seriously think the White wouldn't give Machado a ten year deal because they'd have to carry Kemp's dead money in year one?

 

You seriously think the White Sox having $12-15mm committed to third base already for 5 years WOULDN'T affect their willingness to get Machado?

Yes. There is always DH, 1B for Moustakas. SS for Machado. You could even trade Moustakas. The money between taking Kemp and signing Moustakas, is probably very similar.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Come on, you can’t be seriously telling me it’s about money when almost every post in this entire thread you say you prefer a “left handed, middle of the order, power bat”. I mean goddamn, don’t try and change your position to make it look like you are hoping the Sox are financially more responsible when they will have a bottom of the barrel payroll when it is time to spend on Machado

You are being needlessly harsh bringing up Grady Sizemore. The whole argument from Lillian and others is that a long term high AAV contract will hurt future payroll considerations if the Sox want sustainable success and Moustakas may be a good fit in that 3rd base may be a harder hole to fill than others and also is a LH power bat which we also are in need of. He may also come discounted. Anyone who doesn't think a mega contract hurts roster construction and crippled other moves hasn't been paying attention.

 

W all know the move is risky (not a crippling risk) but so are all the arguments I see thinking the Sox won't need to add a starting pitcher or a top bullpen arm or 2 and everything we need will come from the system or we can afford a mega contract. The rebuild has a slim to none chance of building a WS winner in the next 8 years or so because that's just how things go. The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Yes. There is always DH, 1B for Moustakas. SS for Machado. You could even trade Moustakas. The money between taking Kemp and signing Moustakas, is probably very similar.

 

1) It's not similar at all -- Kemp is owed $43m over two years. And more specifically, two years where the payroll will be very low. Even if Moustakas signs for 5yr at $12mm, (which is the most optimistic guess people have been making on this thread, and almost certainly too low if he signs that long of a deal) that's $60mm, which is just shy of 50% more money. And remember, that's a LOW estimate. Also, 60% of that money is distributed after Kemp;s money would be off the books, which just happens to correspond most directly with our projected contention window.

 

2) Any argument of Moustakas being good enough to build around 2-5 years from now goes completely out the window if he isn't a viable third baseman. You can quibble with PA cutoffs on a list of third basemen last year all you want, but his current level of production is flat-out not acceptable at 1B/DH, and ESPECIALLY not as he moves into his 30's and declines.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

1) It's not similar at all -- Kemp is owed $43m over two years. And more specifically, two years where the payroll will be very low. Even if Moustakas signs for 5yr at $12mm, (which is the most optimistic guess people have been making on this thread, and almost certainly too low if he signs that long of a deal) that's $60mm, which is just shy of 50% more money. And remember, that's a LOW estimate. Also, 60% of that money is distributed after Kemp;s money would be off the books, which just happens to correspond most directly with our projected contention window.

 

2) Any argument of Moustakas being good enough to build around 2-5 years from now goes completely out the window if he isn't a viable third baseman. You can quibble with PA cutoffs on a list of third basemen last year all you want, but his current level of production is flat-out not acceptable at 1B/DH, and ESPECIALLY not as he moves into his 30's and declines.

 

Your arguments in this thread have been so purposely misleading just because you don't like Moustakas. Don't worry the Sox aren't going to sign him, but paying someone $60 million over 5 years, and I doubt the Sox would give him 5 years, probably 4 at most, (considering Heyman said all he has is several one year offers) and paying someone $43 million this year and next, is, in reality, a lot closer than the 50% difference you are exaggerating again.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Dick Allen

[wrathofhahn]

Your arguments in this thread have been so purposely misleading just because you don't like Moustakas. Don't worry the Sox aren't going to sign him, but paying someone $60 million over 5 years, and I doubt the Sox would give him 5 years, probably 4 at most, (considering Heyman said all he has is several one year offers) and paying someone $43 million this year and next, is, in reality, a lot closer than the 50% difference you are exaggerating again.

 

I'm not willing to sign him for one year due to pick considerations

[Balta1701]

2 weeks of proposal writing and this silly deal concept hasn't happened? I'll just be content with that.

[Eminor3rd]

Your arguments in this thread have been so purposely misleading just because you don't like Moustakas. Don't worry the Sox aren't going to sign him, but paying someone $60 million over 5 years, and I doubt the Sox would give him 5 years, probably 4 at most, (considering Heyman said all he has is several one year offers) and paying someone $43 million this year and next, is, in reality, a lot closer than the 50% difference you are exaggerating again.

 

Lol, so you're going to stick with the argument that the years don't matter at all, and that 60 million dollars isn't meaningfully more than 43 million dollars? And that absorbing Kemp to get a prospect is the same deterrent to Machado as signing Moustakas to be our third basemen?

[southsider2k5]

Lol, so you're going to stick with the argument that the years don't matter at all, and that 60 million dollars isn't meaningfully more than 43 million dollars? And that absorbing Kemp to get a prospect is the same deterrent to Machado as signing Moustakas to be our third basemen?

 

But absorbing a much shorter and less expensive deal in Gonzalez is a deterrent.

[Dick Allen]

Lol, so you're going to stick with the argument that the years don't matter at all, and that 60 million dollars isn't meaningfully more than 43 million dollars? And that absorbing Kemp to get a prospect is the same deterrent to Machado as signing Moustakas to be our third basemen?

Again you are the throwing out 5 years $60 million. I think 4/48 would be closer to reality. But present day value of having to pay someone even 60 million over the next 5 years is nowhere close to 50% more than having to pay someone 43 million over he next 2. Moustakas becomes an asset that can play a couple o other AL positions, and can also be traded. Something you purposely ignored. Machado wanted to move to SS. How do you even know he would play 3b for the White Sox?

 

[Dick Allen]

But absorbing a much shorter and less expensive deal in Gonzalez is a deterrent.

Yes because Moustakas becomes an asset moving forward, filling a need. Not some guy we hope can be flipped for more guyslike the ones

we blew off to hope and pray he turns back the clock 5 years.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

You are being needlessly harsh bringing up Grady Sizemore. The whole argument from Lillian and others is that a long term high AAV contract will hurt future payroll considerations if the Sox want sustainable success and Moustakas may be a good fit in that 3rd base may be a harder hole to fill than others and also is a LH power bat which we also are in need of. He may also come discounted. Anyone who doesn't think a mega contract hurts roster construction and crippled other moves hasn't been paying attention.

 

W all know the move is risky (not a crippling risk) but so are all the arguments I see thinking the Sox won't need to add a starting pitcher or a top bullpen arm or 2 and everything we need will come from the system or we can afford a mega contract. The rebuild has a slim to none chance of building a WS winner in the next 8 years or so because that's just how things go. The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

 

I’m not being needlessly harsh, it is the same obsession without considering anything but the side the person hits on. This is ridiculous, Machado is an elite player and Lillian is trying to convince people that Moustakas is a better option because he balances the lineup.

 

Moustakas is a stopgap, and nothing more. I have zero interest in the guy for many reasons, and none of them are money. The rebuild needs to continue with eyes to the future of players that fit into that window. You can tell me you believe the rebuild has a slim to none chance of producing a World Series winner, and that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean you start doing the exact same thing that got you into a rebuild which is add players that are past their prime and hope that they can somehow recapture a year or two within a long term deal.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I’m not being needlessly harsh, it is the same obsession without considering anything but the side the person hits on. This is ridiculous, Machado is an elite player and Lillian is trying to convince people that Moustakas is a better option because he balances the lineup.

 

Moustakas is a stopgap, and nothing more. I have zero interest in the guy for many reasons, and none of them are money. The rebuild needs to continue with eyes to the future of players that fit into that window. You can tell me you believe the rebuild has a slim to none chance of producing a World Series winner, and that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean you start doing the exact same thing that got you into a rebuild which is add players that are past their prime and hope that they can somehow recapture a year or two within a long term deal.

I think it’s ridiculous that fans continue to obsess over the prospect of signing Machado next winter even though the odds of that happening are slim to none.

[chitownsportsfan]

I think it’s ridiculous that fans continue to obsess over the prospect of signing Machado next winter even though the odds of that happening are slim to none.

 

 

The Sox signing Machado would mean many things and almost every single one of them would be a huge positive wrt to the White Sox' future so I don't blame people for "obessing" over it.

 

Now, obsessing over Moose or Hosmer or CarGo? Now that is stupid. Machado moves the needle in ways these guys do not even come close.

 

[Kyyle23]

I think it’s ridiculous that fans continue to obsess over the prospect of signing Machado next winter even though the odds of that happening are slim to none.

 

I’m not obsessing, I just am not discounting the possibility

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The Sox signing Machado would mean many things and almost every single one of them would be a huge positive wrt to the White Sox' future so I don't blame people for "obessing" over it.

 

Now, obsessing over Moose or Hosmer or CarGo? Now that is stupid. Machado moves the needle in ways these guys do not even come close.

Signing Bryce Harper and Clayton Kershaw would be great too but why waste time and energy over something that’s not going to happen? I don’t understand that at all.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I’m not obsessing, I just am not discounting the possibility

I didn’t say YOU were but many Sox fans are...

[Kyyle23]

I didn’t say YOU were but many Sox fans are...

 

If you don’t believe in the rebuild, that’s your prerogative. The Sox have already done many things that would be deemed out of character for this front office including trading away Q and sale for high impact prospects and signing Robert. I see no value in signing Moustakas as if he kick starts the rebuild into high gear. I think they are in the game for the big money players next season

[Balta1701]

If you don’t believe in the rebuild, that’s your prerogative. The Sox have already done many things that would be deemed out of character for this front office including trading away Q and sale for high impact prospects and signing Robert. I see no value in signing Moustakas as if he kick starts the rebuild into high gear. I think they are in the game for the big money players next season

If the White Sox are not willing to be in the game for the top dogs next year then there was no reason for this rebuild.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

If you don’t believe in the rebuild, that’s your prerogative. The Sox have already done many things that would be deemed out of character for this front office including trading away Q and sale for high impact prospects and signing Robert. I see no value in signing Moustakas as if he kick starts the rebuild into high gear. I think they are in the game for the big money players next season

Who said I don’t believe in the rebuild? Not believing they will sign Machado equates to not believing in the rebuild? I absolutely believe that they will make a significant splash in free agency in the coming years, I just don’t believe they are contenders for signing Machado.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

If the White Sox are not willing to be in the game for the top dogs next year then there was no reason for this rebuild.

How so? What big dogs have the Astros signed over the last 5+ years of their rebuild?

[iamshack]

I think if there was a player we should have signed due to market conditions, it was Yuuuuuuu

[Balta1701]

Who said I don’t believe in the rebuild? Not believing they will sign Machado equates to not believing in the rebuild? I absolutely believe that they will make a significant splash in free agency in the coming years, I just don’t believe they are contenders for signing Machado.

If he's the guy they decide makes them the best there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to land him. They could readily land him and Kimbrel and it wouldn't break the bank.

 

They may well go into next offseason and decide that Blackmon out in CF is a better fit and fills a bigger need or something like that, if they got great years from Anderson and Sanchez I can see how that could occur. But "The White Sox will not land the biggest fish" is an argument against the entire concept of the rebuild. Doing this allows us to stop piddling around with the Cabreras and LaRoches, stop having to fill 7 needs at once, and instead have to fill 2 needs with the top dogs. The guys who shouldn't flop.

[Balta1701]

How so? What big dogs have the Astros signed over the last 5+ years of their rebuild?

They didn't sign him, they just absorbed his contract in a trade.