Ryan Cordell

[Lillian]

People are delusional about Engel he was hitting 218 in AAA when he was called up. He's 26 and looks lost at the plate if he ends up being anything more then AAA fodder I'd be surprised.

 

Yes, we understand that he has not yet learned to hit. However, some of us are hopeful that he can. If he can't, he will not be part of this team's future.

[GenericUserName]

People are delusional about Engel he was hitting 218 in AAA when he was called up. He's 26 and looks lost at the plate if he ends up being anything more then AAA fodder I'd be surprised.

He's changes his swing so much I'm almost at the point where I think he should switch to lefty and learn how to do that slap hitting thing they do in softball.

[wrathofhahn]

For a right handed relief pitcher who was going to be a free agent in 3 months time, and had a breakout year. It is funny you mention Tilson, because that is who we got for Zach Duke, and still had a year on his deal at the time. Cordell at least had shown that he could hit. Tilson is the very definition of a 4th OF.

 

When has Tilson not hit? Tilson problem isn't hitting it's a lack of power but still he could put up a 700 ish OPS with just his hitting tool alone and with his plus plus speed be a 2-3 WAR ish CF like Dyson.

 

Also Zach Duke season at the time and just stuff in general is in no way comparable to Swarzak.

[southsider2k5]

People are delusional about Engel he was hitting 218 in AAA when he was called up. He's 26 and looks lost at the plate if he ends up being anything more then AAA fodder I'd be surprised.

 

You are doing an awful lot of strawmanning. Literally no one has said they aren't concerned about his bat.

[southsider2k5]

When has Tilson not hit? Tilson problem isn't hitting it's a lack of power but still he could put up a 700 ish OPS with just his hitting tool alone and with his plus plus speed be a 2-3 WAR ish CF like Dyson.

 

Also Zach Duke season at the time and just stuff in general is in no way comparable to Swarzak.

 

Duke was left handed, with a history of being a good relief pitcher and still had a year of control. Swarzak had none of those.

[Kyyle23]

I am in the camp that thinks Engel is what he is. Can’t think of many players that learned how to hit at 26 or older

[fathom]

I am in the camp that thinks Engel is what he is. Can’t think of many players that learned how to hit at 26 or older

 

Agreed and it's surprising to me he seems to have the CF edge over Leury

[ptatc]

Agreed and it's surprising to me he seems to have the CF edge over Leury

I think part of it is that they are still rebuilding and the stellar defense will help the young pitching. Its the same reason they signed a veteran catcher with stellar defense.

 

If they were planning on being competitive I dont think Engel would even be a consideration to start.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Agreed and it's surprising to me he seems to have the CF edge over Leury

It;s early in ST but I get that impression too. I also grt the impression that the SOx want Leury in the INF more than the OF or want Engel or Cordell to win the job. Just an impression for the moment . I will probably be proven wrong.

[GreenSox]

When has Tilson not hit? Tilson problem isn't hitting it's a lack of power but still he could put up a 700 ish OPS with just his hitting tool alone and with his plus plus speed be a 2-3 WAR ish CF like Dyson.

Honestly, when has Tilson really hit? He hasn't had an OPS over .800 since rookie leagues. At .700ish OPS, Tilson needs Dyson range, or he's really not helping.

 

I would put Engel in AAA...he was rushed into the majors. See if he can improve on his hitting...as it is now, the bat is too much of a liability, but his D is worthy of an opportunity to develop the bat.

 

What is Cordell's real position?

Edited March 1, 2018 by GreenSox

[Two-Gun Pete]

I don't get why some posters over here fall all over themselves to overlook all of Engels clear flaws, while other CF candidates strengths are ignored.

 

I mean, I question Engels purported strength as a defender, given his inferior defensive metrics. (Yes, he made some highlight reel plays last year, but the fact remains that his DRS was negative last year.)

 

At the same time, despite Engel having sucked at hitting at virtually every stop in MiLB, posters still have this insane "hope" that he'll magically start hitting in The Show. Meanwhile, Tilson and Cordell have both out hit Engel at every stop.

 

 

For me, the depth chart @ CF should be:

 

1. Leury (better metrics in every way than Engel last season)

2. Cordell/Tilson (better bats than Engel)

3. May/Engel as injury replacements & Charlotte placeholders.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

IMO, Engel would best be served by playing everyday in Charlotte. I just find it almost impossible to believe he’ll magically make the necessary adjustments at the major league level based on struggles at AAA last season. Having said that, I’m convinced the Sox want him to be the major league starter to start 2018.

[bmags]

I don't get why some posters over here fall all over themselves to overlook all of Engels clear flaws, while other CF candidates strengths are ignored.

 

I mean, I question Engels purported strength as a defender, given his inferior defensive metrics. (Yes, he made some highlight reel plays last year, but the fact remains that his DRS was negative last year.)

 

At the same time, despite Engel having sucked at hitting at virtually every stop in MiLB, posters still have this insane "hope" that he'll magically start hitting in The Show. Meanwhile, Tilson and Cordell have both out hit Engel at every stop.

 

 

For me, the depth chart @ CF should be:

 

1. Leury (better metrics in every way than Engel last season)

2. Cordell/Tilson (better bats than Engel)

3. May/Engel as injury replacements & Charlotte placeholders.

 

Baseball Savant's Outs Above Average rated Engel very favorably last year:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/outs_above_average

 

White Sox also prefer a very shallow CF to take away weak hits, and Engel is maybe our only defender who can do that while still recovering well enough going back.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I don't get why some posters over here fall all over themselves to overlook all of Engels clear flaws, while other CF candidates strengths are ignored.

 

I mean, I question Engels purported strength as a defender, given his inferior defensive metrics. (Yes, he made some highlight reel plays last year, but the fact remains that his DRS was negative last year.)

 

At the same time, despite Engel having sucked at hitting at virtually every stop in MiLB, posters still have this insane "hope" that he'll magically start hitting in The Show. Meanwhile, Tilson and Cordell have both out hit Engel at every stop.

 

 

For me, the depth chart @ CF should be:

 

1. Leury (better metrics in every way than Engel last season)

2. Cordell/Tilson (better bats than Engel)

3. May/Engel as injury replacements & Charlotte placeholders.

 

Quoting carefully selected defensive metrics (while ignoring everything else) from a partial season of play is the worst sin possible when it comes to how to use these stats. It pretty much invalidates everything else.

[harfman77]

I think part of it is that they are still rebuilding and the stellar defense will help the young pitching. Its the same reason they signed a veteran catcher with stellar defense.

 

I think this is overlooked. The team is going to put the defense on the field to help its pitching as much as possible because it helps the young pitchers gain confidence and it helps increase the value of the guys that you may be looking to flip at the deadline.

[Lillian]

One of the interesting implications of these kinds of discussions is the confidence, or lack thereof, which we have in the scouting department. If a guy like Engel is really not as good of a defender as many of us think, and if he has no realistic potential to hit, why does the coaching staff insist upon giving him extended opportunities? If the front office, coaching staff and scouting department is so incompetent, the Sox are in big trouble. I would prefer to trust in their competency and what they are doing. In other words, I give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they know more than any of us do.

[wrathofhahn]

One of the interesting implications of these kinds of discussions is the confidence, or lack thereof, which we have in the scouting department. If a guy like Engel is really not as good of a defender as many of us think, and if he has no realistic potential to hit, why does the coaching staff insist upon giving him extended opportunities? If the front office, coaching staff and scouting department is so incompetent, the Sox are in big trouble. I would prefer to trust in their competency and what they are doing. In other words, I give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they know more than any of us do.

 

Was Tilson or Cordell healthy when Engel was called up? Was Garcia?

 

 

[Lillian]

Was Tilson or Cordell healthy when Engel was called up? Was Garcia?

 

No, I don't believe that they were. However, my point is directed at the plan, going forward. Simply put; I think that I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to those, whose job it is to evaluate talent, and assess the organization's best course.

[wrathofhahn]

Duke was left handed, with a history of being a good relief pitcher and still had a year of control. Swarzak had none of those.

 

You keep talking about his 5 million "extra year" of control like it's some sort of boon. Was it?

 

And yes soft tossing lefties who can get tough LHB out still have value but Swarzak was a legit setup man. That's waaay more valuable or at least it was this offseason when both were free agents. One signed for 1/2.35 million. The other 2/14.

 

[southsider2k5]

You keep talking about his 5 million "extra year" of control like it's some sort of boon. Was it?

 

And yes soft tossing lefties who can get tough LHB out still have value but Swarzak was a legit setup man. That's waaay more valuable or at least it was this offseason when both were free agents. One signed for 1/2.35 million. The other 2/14.

Did you learn nothing of player valuations through the rebuild so far? Control is worth prospects.

[wrathofhahn]

No, I don't believe that they were. However, my point is directed at the plan, going forward. Simply put; I think that I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to those, whose job it is to evaluate talent, and assess the organization's best course.

 

That's fair I'm not just sure the organization is as high on Engel as some posters are I think it was more right place right time as it relates to why he was given an opportunity last year. I could be wrong just my impression.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Quoting carefully selected defensive metrics (while ignoring everything else) from a partial season of play is the worst sin possible when it comes to how to use these stats. It pretty much invalidates everything else.

No doubt. But, the existence of negative evidence regarding Engels defense can't be ignored, IMO. I simply don't take as gospel that he's a great defender, and yes, he definitely passes the eye test. But is his glove enough to exclude other candidates? I don't think so.

 

I think this is overlooked. The team is going to put the defense on the field to help its pitching as much as possible because it helps the young pitchers gain confidence and it helps increase the value of the guys that you may be looking to flip at the deadline.

I'll never doubt that CF is a primarily defensive position. But, how does it help Giolito or Lopez to be constantly under duress, knowing his team mates may not back him offensively? How hard is it on a kid to have to be "perfect," or else he'll lose 3-0 every game, Quintana-style?

 

I'm NOT suggesting that Engel or whoever is in CF has to be a big offensive threat. I'm merely suggesting that he CAN'T be a net negative to the team via utter offensive incompetence.

[southsider2k5]

No doubt. But, the existence of negative evidence regarding Engels defense can't be ignored, IMO. I simply don't take as gospel that he's a great defender, and yes, he definitely passes the eye test. But is his glove enough to exclude other candidates? I don't think so.

 

 

I'll never doubt that CF is a primarily defensive position. But, how does it help Giolito or Lopez to be constantly under duress, knowing his team mates may not back him offensively? How hard is it on a kid to have to be "perfect," or else he'll lose 3-0 every game, Quintana-style?

 

I'm NOT suggesting that Engel or whoever is in CF has to be a big offensive threat. I'm merely suggesting that he CAN'T be a net negative to the team via utter offensive incompetence.

 

A -1 DRS in 97 games of a rookie season when all other evidence points to the contrary is exactly what should be ignored, especially under the circumstances of the way the season played out.

[southsider2k5]

A -1 DRS in 97 games of a rookie season when all other evidence points to the contrary is exactly what should be ignored, especially under the circumstances of the way the season played out.

 

You also might want to read this note on how to use DRS.

 

How To Use DRS?

 

DRS is as easy to read as it is difficult to calculate. DRS tells you how many runs better or worse that player has been relative to the average player at his position. A +5 DRS at third means the player is five runs better than the average third baseman.

 

There are some reasons for caution, however. First, DRS is relative to positional average so you want to factor in the fact hat some positions are harder to play than others. For that reason we have the positional adjustment, which we add to UZR to get DEF. If you prefer DRS, you could add DRS to the adjustment and get a DRS-based DEF.

 

The other thing to remember is that DRS isn’t going to work well in small sample sizes, especially a couple of months or less. Once you get to one and three-year samples, it’s a relatively solid metric but defensive itself is quite variable so you need a good amount of data for the metrics to become particularly useful. There’s plenty more to say about this issue, but that’s for another entry. In general, DRS isn’t perfect because it doesn’t factor in shifts, positioning, and can’t perfectly measure everything it needs to, but it’s still among the best options out there.

 

 

[OmarComing25]

I don't think Engel will hit well enough to even be a viable 4th OF, but his defensive capabilities should not be in question. Statcast had him as the 2nd best defender in baseball last year after Buxton. The eye test backs that up as well.