How the Sox are trying to perfect tanking

[Real]

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/mlb/...cubs-astros#top

 

One of the best Sox articles I've seen written in years

 

Warning: Its very long.

[Jose Abreu]

It's well-written but I don't agree with the constant use of the word 'tanking'. I don't think the Sox were actively trying to lose games last season, and I also believe that the word has a connotation that the future is bleak for the team in question.

[Tannerfan]

I just logged in so I could post this article myself. Every White Sox fan in the universe should read it.

[bmags]

I mean, the bullpen recovered, but when they sold off Clippard for cash I thought they would lose every game in the 8th/9th innings.

 

That was definitely a tanking-esque "we don't care anymore moment".

[RockRaines]

Tatis hurts every time its mentioned

[bmags]

That was fun. I wish he'd mention that the sox also struck at a time when the contending teams also happened to have the best farms in baseball still. Now look at the top 15, not that many win now teams.

 

It's fun when Rany writes about something other than the Royals. I actually read it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/mlb/...cubs-astros#top

 

One of the best Sox articles I've seen written in years

 

Warning: Its very long.

Was really good and factually correct.

 

I never understand the warnings about long articles. It's pretty short compared to a short story and miniscule compared to a novel. Don't young people like to read anymore ? People whining about long posts bothers me. If you don't want your post to be misinterpreted ( which it will be anyway thanks to reading comprehension levels ) you take the time to explain your point fully. Sorry sometime I like to rant.

[southsider2k5]

That was fun. I wish he'd mention that the sox also struck at a time when the contending teams also happened to have the best farms in baseball still. Now look at the top 15, not that many win now teams.

 

It's fun when Rany writes about something other than the Royals. I actually read it.

 

They really did tank into the perfect situation. With a depressed free agent market and a situation where their players available were far and above what anyone else who was looking to sell had to offer. If they had tried that now, there are so many more teams into active tanking modes, that the prices being brought back are depressed from where they were.

[chitownsportsfan]

Getting Moncada and Kopech and Basabe for Sale was an absolute coup and really kicked things off the right way. The Eaton trade looked fairly good then and still fairly good now but man that Sale trade was an absolute rocket up the rebuild's ass.

 

Good solid article. It wasn't too long imo. The beginning was a bit over the top but he got into the meat of it pretty quickly.

[jenksycat]

They really did tank into the perfect situation. With a depressed free agent market and a situation where their players available were far and above what anyone else who was looking to sell had to offer. If they had tried that now, there are so many more teams into active tanking modes, that the prices being brought back are depressed from where they were.

 

Yeah I wouldn't call the Sox the "most extreme" tanking ever, just happened to luck into a crazy combination of having a few elite assets + contending teams with great farms. The Astros were BAD for 3 years in a row and destroyed the draft a couple times to get them a ring.

 

Outside of Tatis I've loved every move, my only concern is they can't draft & develop a positional player to save their lives (jury out on Anderson still) and will eventually need to do that at some point once this wave of prospects has passed.

 

Having a young core hopefully come along in the next 2 years + infinite money to spend in a great free agent class is a pretty nice spot to be in.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Jenksy Cat

[ChiSoxJon]

Fantastic article

 

BUT it's not tanking...

 

It's rebuilding correctly which this organization has never done before

[ChiSoxJon]

I mean, the bullpen recovered, but when they sold off Clippard for cash I thought they would lose every game in the 8th/9th innings.

 

That was definitely a tanking-esque "we don't care anymore moment".

That was more of a "Tyler Clippard sucks, if someone wants him, take him" move

[bmags]

That was more of a "Tyler Clippard sucks, if someone wants him, take him" move

 

At the time we moved him, Clippard was by far the most reliable player in the bullpen.

[ChiSoxJon]

At the time we moved him, Clippard was by far the most reliable player in the bullpen.

On s*** team in a s*** 'pen as a FA at the end of the year coming off a MISERABLE stint in NYY

[southsider2k5]

Yeah I wouldn't call the Sox the "most extreme" tanking ever, just happened to luck into a crazy combination of having a few elite assets + contending teams with great farms. The Astros were BAD for 3 years in a row and destroyed the draft a couple times to get them a ring.

 

Outside of Tatis I've loved every move, my only concern is they can't draft & develop a positional player to save their lives (jury out on Anderson still) and will eventually need to do that at some point once this wave of prospects has passed.

 

Having a young core hopefully come along in the next 2 years + infinite money to spend in a great free agent class is a pretty nice spot to be in.

 

That has really started to change. A good chunk of our starting line up is guys who we both drafted and developed.

[chitownsportsfan]

That has really started to change. A good chunk of our starting line up is guys who we both drafted and developed.

 

Yolmer Sanchez would be a huge success story for the Sox if he can keep it up.

[southsider2k5]

Yolmer Sanchez would be a huge success story for the Sox if he can keep it up.

 

As would turning any of Tim Anderson, Nick Delmonico, or Adam Engel into quality starters.

[jenksycat]

That has really started to change. A good chunk of our starting line up is guys who we both drafted and developed.

 

I hope so, I'd still like to see more than just 1-2 slightly above-average positional players

[bmags]

After sitting with the article for a bit, I am half-on, half-off with premise.

 

I have always grouped the sox rebuilding along with the Phillies and Brewers, and I would consider the tigers similarly. I think you could make argument the Marlins are, but theirs was so much more financially driven.

 

The phillies and tigers however, were much more terrible when their sell-offs began. But, they came at the end of a long era of trying to compete every year (basically 10 years).

 

The Reds and Twins to me were similar to Cubs/Astros. Less extreme, but basically a longterm rebuild after an extended suckage.

 

I'm not sure I see how the White Sox specifically stand out among the Phillies/Brewers/Tigers except they had better assets and were slightly closer to winning a playoff berth.

 

Actually, yeah I talked myself out of it. Great article, but I don't see sox as having done anything specifically path-changing.

[Dick Allen]

After sitting with the article for a bit, I am half-on, half-off with premise.

 

I have always grouped the sox rebuilding along with the Phillies and Brewers, and I would consider the tigers similarly. I think you could make argument the Marlins are, but theirs was so much more financially driven.

 

The phillies and tigers however, were much more terrible when their sell-offs began. But, they came at the end of a long era of trying to compete every year (basically 10 years).

 

The Reds and Twins to me were similar to Cubs/Astros. Less extreme, but basically a longterm rebuild after an extended suckage.

 

I'm not sure I see how the White Sox specifically stand out among the Phillies/Brewers/Tigers except they had better assets and were slightly closer to winning a playoff berth.

 

Actually, yeah I talked myself out of it. Great article, but I don't see sox as having done anything specifically path-changing.

The White Sox had big, cheap assets to sell. The rebuild would take forever if they were just depending on the draft, and June 2 signings. Fulmer, Collins, Burger, those were the guys losing got you. If not for Sale, Eaton and Q, the Sox rebuild might take 10 years. It's really a rebuild like no other, maybe the Marlins currently, but they got nowhere near the return for Stanton because he wasn't cheap.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

After sitting with the article for a bit, I am half-on, half-off with premise.

 

I have always grouped the sox rebuilding along with the Phillies and Brewers, and I would consider the tigers similarly. I think you could make argument the Marlins are, but theirs was so much more financially driven.

 

The phillies and tigers however, were much more terrible when their sell-offs began. But, they came at the end of a long era of trying to compete every year (basically 10 years).

 

The Reds and Twins to me were similar to Cubs/Astros. Less extreme, but basically a longterm rebuild after an extended suckage.

 

I'm not sure I see how the White Sox specifically stand out among the Phillies/Brewers/Tigers except they had better assets and were slightly closer to winning a playoff berth.

 

Actually, yeah I talked myself out of it. Great article, but I don't see sox as having done anything specifically path-changing.

 

What will be interesting to me is that this is mainly pitching driven, and not position player driven in terms of the talent they have acquired. Hopefully the volatility of pitching is overcome by the Sox ability to scout and develop pitching. We are still fairly thin in quality positional talent in the system for a team that wants to be a world champ in short time.

[bmags]

The White Sox had big, cheap assets to sell. The rebuild would take forever if they were just depending on the draft, and June 2 signings. Fulmer, Collins, Burger, those were the guys losing got you. If not for Sale, Eaton and Q, the Sox rebuild might take 10 years. It's really a rebuild like no other, maybe the Marlins currently, but they got nowhere near the return for Stanton because he wasn't cheap.

 

I guess. But to me that just changes the returns, whereas the way it's written and I'm reading it, the strategy of selling top talent while near competing set them apart from other rebuilding teams (cubs/astros) and I don't really buy that since there are more teams than cubs and astros.

[bmags]

For example, Phillies traded Ken Giles who was cost controlled and good.

[bmags]

What will be interesting to me is that this is mainly pitching driven, and not position player driven in terms of the talent they have acquired. Hopefully the volatility of pitching is overcome by the Sox ability to scout and develop pitching. We are still fairly thin in quality positional talent in the system for a team that wants to be a world champ in short time.

 

Not that media scouts are always right, but they mention the braves so much more than the white sox when discussing the dangers of the pitching heavy rebuild, even with Acuna/Albies.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Yeah I wouldn't call the Sox the "most extreme" tanking ever, just happened to luck into a crazy combination of having a few elite assets + contending teams with great farms. The Astros were BAD for 3 years in a row and destroyed the draft a couple times to get them a ring.

 

Outside of Tatis I've loved every move, my only concern is they can't draft & develop a positional player to save their lives (jury out on Anderson still) and will eventually need to do that at some point once this wave of prospects has passed.

 

Having a young core hopefully come along in the next 2 years + infinite money to spend in a great free agent class is a pretty nice spot to be in.

 

The Marlins and Indians did the same thing at least twice. Now at least three times in Miami.

 

The A’s have been cycling through tanks over and over again. The Rays?

 

The Twins...the Padres, many examples. Otoh, without the Shields deal, the White Sox have the lowest payroll in baseball by $10 million and clearly the #1 farm system with up to five superstars or at least All-Star caliber talents in the system (Jimenez, Tatis, Kopech, Robert, Hansen, Cease...and, if you squint hard enough, Collins because of the dearth of legit catching prospects, or Micker Adolfo).

 

So the unique differentiating point is teams like the Cubs and Astros based rebuild on hitting/positional prospects moreso than the Sox approach of pitching first.

 

Of course, we’ve already taken hits there...Rodon injuries and inconsistency (compared to say a Bryant, Correa or Lindor)...Burdi injured...Giolito looking more like Gavin Floyd than a true frontline ace (still a net win) due to a dropoff in velocity...otoh, Cease looks more and more legit everyday. Let’s not forget Fulmer is also FAR from a sure thing. And then you have the Burger, Robert and Adolfo injuries. Not quite the linear path those two teams followed (Cubs/Astros), but undoubtedly faster to get back to competitive team, too.

 

Financially, we might be in the best division to overtake rivals as well...over the long-term. The Padres do everything right, still have the Dodgers in their path, for example. Maybe NL East post Harper is equal opportunity for Braves and Phillies?

Edited April 2, 2018 by caulfield12