How the Sox are trying to perfect tanking

[Dunt]

What will be interesting to me is that this is mainly pitching driven, and not position player driven in terms of the talent they have acquired. Hopefully the volatility of pitching is overcome by the Sox ability to scout and develop pitching. We are still fairly thin in quality positional talent in the system for a team that wants to be a world champ in short time.

 

Disagree on the Sox being thin in terms of position players. The system is a little top heavy, but the OF is stacked through the system, I think they are looking pretty good at catcher, there are some options for 1B, 3B is a mystery until we see how Burger comes back (though I still think this is addressed through FA and Burger gets added to 1B/DH mix), and SS and 2B are thin, but you have two of your organizations cornerstones there for the next 6-7 years already at the major league level.

[bmags]

I think sox are a bit short on high ceiling bats and uber athletes, but I do think they have a good amount of mlb playable bats with passable defense. So depth wise I think we will be there, just need to find some elite production somewhere.

[Dunt]

I think sox are a bit short on high ceiling bats and uber athletes, but I do think they have a good amount of mlb playable bats with passable defense. So depth wise I think we will be there, just need to find some elite production somewhere.

 

Im not sure there is a farm system in the MLB right now that has more high ceiling bat potential than the White Sox right now

[southsider2k5]

Disagree on the Sox being thin in terms of position players. The system is a little top heavy, but the OF is stacked through the system, I think they are looking pretty good at catcher, there are some options for 1B, 3B is a mystery until we see how Burger comes back (though I still think this is addressed through FA and Burger gets added to 1B/DH mix), and SS and 2B are thin, but you have two of your organizations cornerstones there for the next 6-7 years already at the major league level.

 

I think the OF depth is a bit overstated. There is one star at the front, and another potential star who could fly through the system. After that? I am just not as sold. I am hopeful, but there are still guys with a lot of flaws in those groups.

[caulfield12]

Unless one believes in Basabe, Adolfo staying in one piece without duct tape and baling wire, Rutherford and maybe Cordell.

 

On the plus side, Moncada/Robert/Anderson/Avi/Leury/Yolmer/Saladino are all pretty darned athletic...and, of course, Engel. That’s a really nice foundation.

 

Nothing like the plodding 2006-2008 White Sox, or 2011-13 (minus Rios and DeAza).

 

 

[Dunt]

I think the OF depth is a bit overstated. There is one star at the front, and another potential star who could fly through the system. After that? I am just not as sold. I am hopeful, but there are still guys with a lot of flaws in those groups.

 

First, having two guys that have possible outcomes of superstars already tells me that OF in the farm system is a strength. Then you have depth pieces that you hope one of which pans out: Rutherford (Im not sold personally), Basabe (I think we will eventually be a major league starter), Gonzalez, Adolfo, Polo, etc. I personally see that as depth and a strength of the system. Compare their OF prospects to those of other top systems:

 

ATL Ronald Acuna, Cristian Pache, Dustin Peterson, Drew Waters

NYY Estevan Florial, Billy McKinney

SDP Franchy Cordero, Jorge Ona, Tirso Ornelas?

WAS Victor Robles, Juan Soto

 

Sox are in good shape when it comes to OFers IMO.

[yesterday333]

I think the OF depth is a bit overstated. There is one star at the front, and another potential star who could fly through the system. After that? I am just not as sold. I am hopeful, but there are still guys with a lot of flaws in those groups.

There are 9 OF in our top 30, in a top 5 farm system. How much more do you want? All 9 have the potential to be a quality starter. Is there a system that has more potential in the OF than ours? I think of those 9 we are likely to get at least 3 quality guys, and maybe a couple stars.

[yesterday333]

There are 9 OF in our top 30, in a top 5 farm system. How much more do you want? All 9 have the potential to be a quality starter. Is there a system that has more potential in the OF than ours? I think of those 9 we are likely to get at least 3 quality guys, and maybe a couple stars.

I am going by FutureSox top 30

[bmags]

I think one thing to keep in mind per ss2k5's point is the difference is sox legit need 3 starters out of that group whereas you could really only say that about padres.

 

I still do like our OF depth and think Luis Gonzalez will be the big punch up guy we are looking for.

 

Much more meh on our MI guys that are versatile. A few true CF prospects, but few SS that we could move wherever needed.

[southsider2k5]

I think one thing to keep in mind per ss2k5's point is the difference is sox legit need 3 starters out of that group whereas you could really only say that about padres.

 

I still do like our OF depth and think Luis Gonzalez will be the big punch up guy we are looking for.

 

Much more meh on our MI guys that are versatile. A few true CF prospects, but few SS that we could move wherever needed.

 

Infield and Catcher are much more scary. I am not sure if we have another guy in the system that actually projects to be a starting catcher defensively, with any real chance to hit at the major league level.

[bmags]

Infield and Catcher are much more scary. I am not sure if we have another guy in the system that actually projects to be a starting catcher defensively, with any real chance to hit at the major league level.

 

Catchers have been surprisingly affordable on market, I'm okay that we'll find what we need there.

 

Granted sox have been horrible at pro scouting catchers (to perform while a white sox I guess)

[Panerista]

Catchers have been surprisingly affordable on market, I'm okay that we'll find what we need there.

 

Granted sox have been horrible at pro scouting catchers (to perform while a white sox I guess)

It seems like in today's game, if you're a hitting catcher you become a first baseman. Maybe that's deflating the price of a catcher?

[bmags]

It seems like in today's game, if you're a hitting catcher you become a first baseman. Maybe that's deflating the price of a catcher?

 

Certainly seems so.

 

For example, do you think Gary Sanchez hits free agency as a catcher still?

[chitownsportsfan]

I’m obviously the minority here but that article wasn’t insightful one bit unless you’re a casual fan who’s been living under a rock since 2016.

 

It was written for a non-Sox audience but I do agree it was mostly "old news" for Sox fans.

[Pants Rowland]

It was written for a non-Sox audience but I do agree it was mostly "old news" for Sox fans.

 

It is still encouraging to see a knowledgeable admitted White Sox hater break it all down and exhibit an admiration for what is being done here, even with the noted slip up of the Tatis trade. The guy seems to have done his homework.

[Jake]

The most noteworthy thing for me is the White Sox were smart enough not to do a rebuild that was predicated on losing. The dumbest game you can play in MLB is jumping through hoops to get the highest draft pick possible. If you're trading your veteran assets for good young talent, you won't be picking late in the first round. But the marginal value of a few spots is rarely going to be worth jerking your players and fans around.

 

Infield and Catcher are much more scary. I am not sure if we have another guy in the system that actually projects to be a starting catcher defensively, with any real chance to hit at the major league level.

 

I know your comment mentioned defense specifically, but I think we have a pretty deep system at catcher. On the MLB club you have Narvaez who is a solid MLB regular and under control for a long time. Then in the minors you have Smith, who is more of a backup MLB type who we may never use much because he's rather old at this point. Moving on through the minors you have Collins and Zavala, both promising bats but as you say there are questions about defense. Of course, you don't typically find too many catcher prospects who play good defense and hit.

[southsider2k5]

The most noteworthy thing for me is the White Sox were smart enough not to do a rebuild that was predicated on losing. The dumbest game you can play in MLB is jumping through hoops to get the highest draft pick possible. If you're trading your veteran assets for good young talent, you won't be picking late in the first round. But the marginal value of a few spots is rarely going to be worth jerking your players and fans around.

 

 

 

I know your comment mentioned defense specifically, but I think we have a pretty deep system at catcher. On the MLB club you have Narvaez who is a solid MLB regular and under control for a long time. Then in the minors you have Smith, who is more of a backup MLB type who we may never use much because he's rather old at this point. Moving on through the minors you have Collins and Zavala, both promising bats but as you say there are questions about defense. Of course, you don't typically find too many catcher prospects who play good defense and hit.

 

If Zavala and Collins can't stick behind the plate, they aren't catchers. That is the problem there.

[35thstreetswarm]

It was written for a non-Sox audience but I do agree it was mostly "old news" for Sox fans.

 

I think the "meat" of the article (the history of our transactions, the profiles of our prospects, etc.) was made up of a lot of facts that are very familiar to Sox fans. What I found to be a departure from the usual coverage was his thesis that the Sox were doing something fundamentally different from other rebuilding teams like the Cubs, Astros, and really anybody else. As others have noted, this is a debatable premise. But I've never quite seen anyone describe our rebuild in the same terms as this author, so I appreciate his originality at a minimum.

[iamshack]

I think the "meat" of the article (the history of our transactions, the profiles of our prospects, etc.) was made up of a lot of facts that are very familiar to Sox fans. What I found to be a departure from the usual coverage was his thesis that the Sox were doing something fundamentally different from other rebuilding teams like the Cubs, Astros, and really anybody else. As others have noted, this is a debatable premise. But I've never quite seen anyone describe our rebuild in the same terms as this author, so I appreciate his originality at a minimum.

Yeah, I mean the Astros and Cubs perfected tanking.

 

The White Sox perfected the rebuild.

[greg775]

Yeah, I mean the Astros and Cubs perfected tanking.

 

The White Sox perfected the rebuild.

It's too early to deem anything final regarding success or failure of the rebuild. Players must now be developed; more must be done with the roster.

[iamshack]

It's too early to deem anything final regarding success or failure of the rebuild. Players must now be developed; more must be done with the roster.

You are correct.

[GreenSox]

I'm still looking for this reputed excess pitching depth.

 

The rotation has 2 starters. 3 needed. Okay, I'll add Rodon - 2 needed.

The bullpen has one keeper, Jones, who will likely be traded; and perhaps Bummer. The rest are stiffs. 7 needed.

That's a total of 9 pitchers needed. Okay, I'll add Fulmer to the pen (kind of a compromise) and that's 8 needed

Total of leaving absolutely no depth.

Using a prospect wash-out rate of 50% (which is really way too low), that means 16 pitchers are needed just to get to 5 and 8 (in contrast, the Astros have 8 starters).

 

In a best-case scenario, the Sox need 16 legitimate pitching prospects. Oh sure there is free agency (crapshoot) fo a spot or two. And they could trade (the Sox record on trading FOR veterans, is, to be kind, less than exemplary).

Stockpile the pitching.

Edited April 4, 2018 by GreenSox

[SoxAce]

The bullpen has one keeper, Jones, who will likely be traded; and perhaps Bummer. The rest are stiffs. 7 needed.

 

Luis Avilan is pretty good. Don't let one bad outing fool you. But, he's probably trade bait too like Jones, so... far from a stiff though.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm still looking for this reputed excess pitching depth.

 

The rotation has 2 starters. 3 needed. Okay, I'll add Rodon - 2 needed.

The bullpen has one keeper, Jones, who will likely be traded; and perhaps Bummer. The rest are stiffs. 7 needed.

That's a total of 9 pitchers needed. Okay, I'll add Fulmer to the pen (kind of a compromise) and that's 8 needed

Total of leaving absolutely no depth.

Using a prospect wash-out rate of 50% (which is really way too low), that means 16 pitchers are needed just to get to 5 and 8 (in contrast, the Astros have 8 starters).

 

In a best-case scenario, the Sox need 16 legitimate pitching prospects. Oh sure there is free agency (crapshoot) fo a spot or two. And they could trade (the Sox record on trading FOR veterans, is, to be kind, less than exemplary).

Stockpile the pitching.

Giolito

Lopez

Rodon

Fulmer

Bummer

Kopech

Burdi

Hansen

Dunning

Cease

Stephens

Adams

Guerrero

Puckett

Clarkin

Flores

Vieira

Burr

Hamilton

Pinto

Frye

McClure

Henzman

Johnson

 

That’s a pretty good amount of pitching depth. And given we have like $10M in payroll commitments next year we can definitely splurge to fill some holes.

[caulfield12]

I'm still looking for this reputed excess pitching depth.

 

The rotation has 2 starters. 3 needed. Okay, I'll add Rodon - 2 needed.

The bullpen has one keeper, Jones, who will likely be traded; and perhaps Bummer. The rest are stiffs. 7 needed.

That's a total of 9 pitchers needed. Okay, I'll add Fulmer to the pen (kind of a compromise) and that's 8 needed

Total of leaving absolutely no depth.

Using a prospect wash-out rate of 50% (which is really way too low), that means 16 pitchers are needed just to get to 5 and 8 (in contrast, the Astros have 8 starters).

 

In a best-case scenario, the Sox need 16 legitimate pitching prospects. Oh sure there is free agency (crapshoot) fo a spot or two. And they could trade (the Sox record on trading FOR veterans, is, to be kind, less than exemplary).

Stockpile the pitching.

 

 

It's easy to imagine, but we know reality (from 1999-2001) doesn't work out so well.

 

 

Kopech

Rodon

Giolito

Lopez

Hansen

Cease

Dunning

 

That leaves Fulmer (starter #8), Dunning (#7), Burdi, Stephens (arguably #9), Vieira, Jordan Guerrero, there are a slew of potential guys in AA/High A or last year's draft class I'm leaving out off the top of my head that have a lot of upside for the pen.

 

The main point is that you have to have 3-4 close to dominant relievers that can fill multiple roles and/or ONE elite closer. (Just look at the recent success with picking up Kahnle and Swarzak off the scrap heap.)

 

Not to mention this year's draft pick, let's say it is LHP McClanahan.

 

They're in pretty good shape, all things considered. (Obviously, injuries are hard to forecast.)

Edited April 4, 2018 by caulfield12