Moncada

[TaylorStSox]

Calling Moncada's swing "robotic" is mind-boggling to me. It's like we're watching 2 different people swing a baseball bat. If you mean "repeatable," then yeah, I agree and he should keep repeating it because there's absolutely nothing wrong with his swing. In fact, it's one of the prettier left handed swings you'll see. If you want to criticize his understanding of an MLB strike zone, then we can talk. He has a lot to learn in that regard.

 

I definitely don't want my 23 year old star prospect making "mid swing adjustments." That's an incredibly bad idea for a myriad of reasons, most notably, heatlh. 

[fathom]

4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Calling Moncada's swing "robotic" is mind-boggling to me. It's like we're watching 2 different people swing a baseball bat. If you mean "repeatable," then yeah, I agree and he should keep repeating it because there's absolutely nothing wrong with his swing. In fact, it's one of the prettier left handed swings you'll see. If you want to criticize his understanding of an MLB strike zone, then we can talk. He has a lot to learn in that regard.

 

I definitely don't want my 23 year old star prospect making "mid swing adjustments." That's an incredibly bad idea for a myriad of reasons, most notably, heatlh. 

You don't want a hitter adjusting to the pitch?  It's why he gets fooled so badly on sliders, his bat path is the same.  He could also stand to shorten his swing with 2 strikes, but he seems determined to do everything his way and then make adjustments after the year.

[TaylorStSox]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

You don't want a hitter adjusting to the pitch?  It's why he gets fooled so badly on sliders, his bat path is the same.  He could also stand to shorten his swing with 2 strikes, but he seems determined to do everything his way and then make adjustments after the year.

You ever try to make a "mid swing adjustment" on a fastball? I think you're saying you want him to fight more pitches off. That's a pitch recognition thing. A mid swing adjustment sounds like a great way to break your own wrist. 

 

I'm also just giving you a hard time. Yeah, I want him to fight more pitches off though. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by TaylorStSox

[fathom]

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

You ever try to make a "mid swing adjustment" on a fastball? I think you're saying you want him to fight more pitches off. That's a pitch recognition thing. A mid swing adjustment sounds like a great way to break your own wrist. 

Adjustments is on breaking pitches, and is more with your hands and legs which then impacts bat path. Someone like Rizzo is a great example of this.

[Lillian]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that he try to make a "mid swing adjustment". My point is that a hitter is not best served by swinging exactly the same way, within the same swing plane, regardless of the situation, the location of the pitch, or any other variable factor. One relevant example would be trying to pull an outside pitch. It's far more effective to take an outside pitch the other way, which often dictates a "hands before the barrel of the bat" swing. Anderson seems to have figured that out. Moncada may have a "pretty swing," but the results can be "ugly" when the bat doesn't barrel up the ball.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Lillian

[TaylorStSox]

But seriously, I don't think you're ever going to see a guy that's fighting a lot of pitches off and poking pitches the opposite way when he's fooled. I think you're going to see a more 3 outcome type of hitter who gets some extra hits because of his speed. I'm thinking at his peak, you're probably looking at a .265/.400 35 HR type of hitter with a lot of k's. 

 

The bad thing about LH's with pretty swings is that once they get started, it's hard to stop. 

[Lillian]

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

But seriously, I don't think you're ever going to see a guy that's fighting a lot of pitches off and poking pitches the opposite way when he's fooled. I think you're going to see a more 3 outcome type of hitter who gets some extra hits because of his speed. I'm thinking at his peak, you're probably looking at a .265/.400 35 HR type of hitter with a lot of k's. 

 

The bad thing about LH's with pretty swings is that once they get started, it's hard to stop. 

You may be correct, but if so, that would indeed be a shame. He has too much speed and talent, to relegate himself to that kind of hitter.

[TaylorStSox]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

You may be correct, but if so, that would indeed be a shame. He has too much speed and talent, to relegate himself to that kind of hitter.

You realize I just described 2014 Mike Trout?

[fathom]

7 minutes ago, Lillian said:

You may be correct, but if so, that would indeed be a shame. He has too much speed and talent, to relegate himself to that kind of hitter.

He might have 2-3 infield hits all season. It's why taking 38 called 3rd is ridiculous with his speed.

[TaylorStSox]

What I don't want out of a LH Moncada is a slap hitter that's spraying the ball. I want him to identify pitches he can hit, and crush them. I want him pulling the ball. I want him laying off pitches he can't crush and taking walks. Now, I like a Moncada that sprays the ball from the right side of the plate though and uses his speed more. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

How realistic is it to expect completely different hitting philosophies from both sides of the plate?

Right now, he’s more reminiscent of Jose Valentin as a switch-hitter, tbh.

With him already being “in between” so often, I just wonder how the affect of having him think EVEN MORE will have?  It’s almost like the Giolito and his mechanics thing, and the more you focus on something, the more it gets in your head and you do start becoming robotic instead of “natural” up there as a result, like a deer in headlights.  So much of it’s confidence when you’re hitting, and he’s REALLY struggling to get that back, to collect just a couple of multiple hit games in a row.

[Lillian]

27 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

What I don't want out of a LH Moncada is a slap hitter that's spraying the ball. I want him to identify pitches he can hit, and crush them. I want him pulling the ball. I want him laying off pitches he can't crush and taking walks. Now, I like a Moncada that sprays the ball from the right side of the plate though and uses his speed more. 

I'm not suggesting that he try to become a slap hitter. When there is a pitch, which he can pull and drive, that's a great approach. However, the more he insists upon doing exclusively that, the fewer such pitches he is likely to see. For example, if a pitcher pitches him away. it's so much more effective to simply hit the ball to the other side, especially when the defense has employed a shift.

[caulfield12]

There are two problems...that fastball on the inside 1/3rd of the plate (especially belt high and up) is giving him fits...so he’s really trying to get started early, but it’s causing lag in his swing because his timing is still off.   Basically, he’s got that one dead pull swing, which of course leaves him susceptible to anything on the outside of the plate (or just off.)

I do think getting all those full count strikes called on him (instead of picking up another 10-12 walks) has also gotten into his head.  Last year, after the slow start, he was an OBP machine.  This year, the walks are increasingly fewer and fewer.  But it seems like every at-bat he’s usually down 1 or 2 strikes in the count...then he starts getting in-between on what pitch is coming instead of at least aggressively hunting fastballs in the hitting zone early.

 

[TaylorStSox]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How realistic is it to expect completely different hitting philosophies from both sides of the plate?

Right now, he’s more reminiscent of Jose Valentin as a switch-hitter, tbh.

With him already being “in between” so often, I just wonder how the affect of having him think EVEN MORE will have?  It’s almost like the Giolito and his mechanics thing, and the more you focus on something, the more it gets in your head and you do start becoming robotic instead of “natural” up there as a result, like a deer in headlights.  So much of it’s confidence when you’re hitting, and he’s REALLY struggling to get that back, to collect just a couple of multiple hit games in a row.

It's not uncommon at all for a switch hitter to have pretty big power splits and approaches. 

[TaylorStSox]

17 minutes ago, Lillian said:

I'm not suggesting that he try to become a slap hitter. When there is a pitch, which he can pull and drive, that's a great approach. However, the more he insists upon doing exclusively that, the fewer such pitches he is likely to see. For example, if a pitcher pitches him away. it's so much more effective to simply hit the ball to the other side, especially when the defense has employed a shift.

What you're asking for is really advanced, there aren't a whole lot of hitters that can do it with power and a lot are RH. That's why a lot of LH power hitters (which I think Yoan is) are dead pull hitters that walk a lot. 

 

To me, he looks like he's having problems with pitch recognition, the strike zone and being in between. I think he should focus on nothing but his approach. I wouldn't touch his swing. 

 

I do think he can be a lot more than a pull hitter, but 1 thing at a time. Once he gets a better understanding of the strike zone, I think he can start driving outside pitches into LF. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by TaylorStSox

[Lillian]

Well, gentlemen, interesting discussion. Thank you for the input. We'll just have to wait an see.

[chitownsportsfan]

This guy's head is swimming.  IMO it makes the case he should have been called up earlier last year to have gotten more big league reps as AAA wasn't challenging him.  Anyways, I'm hoping he's like most toosly middle infielders and really puts it together from 25-30ish.  He's got a lot to work on but he's also got a lot of things going for him.  Just his athletic tool overall makes his floor about 2 WAR, which is about what we're seeing at 23.

 

[Balta1701]

9 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This guy's head is swimming.  IMO it makes the case he should have been called up earlier last year to have gotten more big league reps as AAA wasn't challenging him.  Anyways, I'm hoping he's like most toosly middle infielders and really puts it together from 25-30ish.  He's got a lot to work on but he's also got a lot of things going for him.  Just his athletic tool overall makes his floor about 2 WAR, which is about what we're seeing at 23.

 

If AAA wasn't challenging him, it would have been darn nice if he had put up numbers to show that. Yeah he was dealing with a wrist? injury for about 2 months, but that .824 OPS and falling after a grand total of 358 plate appearances didn't make the case that he was ready to be called up and had nothing more to learn at AAA to me. 

Just to stress - it still wasn't nearly the insanely aggressive callups we saw the 2016 and 2015 White Sox doing with their top prospects, but I certainly didn't look at his numbers and think "AAA wasn't challenging him".

[caulfield12]

Blame the Red Sox!  Otherwise, we’d have Devers and Madrigal lined up in their correct positions.

That RH hitting line has been an issue every year since the Sally League.

[maggsmaggs]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Blame the Red Sox!  Otherwise, we’d have Devers and Madrigal lined up in their correct positions.

That RH hitting line has been an issue every year since the Sally League.

I do wonder when you have to give serious thought to him abandoning switch hitting. 

[Jose Abreu]

50 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

I do wonder when you have to give serious thought to him abandoning switch hitting. 

I think we should let him switch hit (and actually bat him leadoff against LHP to get him reps, and stop asking him to bunt against LHP to get him reps) for the rest of the season and for the first half next year. If he still looks this bad as a right handed hitter, I think that's when we should consider a switch. Perhaps even after the 2019 season. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

The kid is striking out 35% of the time and has an OPS barely above 700. That is no bueno. 

He is a paper tiger until proven otherwise. All the "tools" in the world don't matter if you can't put them to use. 

I wonder what the Padres would say if we tried to trade him straight up for Tatis Jr...

 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

The kid is striking out 35% of the time and has an OPS barely above 700. That is no bueno. 

He is a paper tiger until proven otherwise. All the "tools" in the world don't matter if you can't put them to use. 

I wonder what the Padres would say if we tried to trade him straight up for Tatis Jr...

 

The need for people to write off prospects as quickly as possible is quite amazing.  Before Moncada went down with his injury, the kid was incredibly productive (.868 OPS / wRC+ 140) and was top two in exit velocity.  While there was BABIP luck fueling those numbers, the power was beyond legit.  He was also one of the highest rated defenders at 2B and I believe the highest rated base-runner in all of baseball.  To say he was flashing superstar potential would be a massive understatement.  What has happened since then I’m not sure and clearly his overall game is suffering from him pressing on the offensive side, but I will never doubt a kid with this much ability.  Maybe he never reaches his ceiling, but I’m going to give a lot more time to figure his shit out because we’ve already seen what it looks like when everything is clicking.

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The need for people to write off prospects as quickly as possible is quite amazing.  Before Moncada went down with his injury, the kid was incredibly productive (.868 OPS / wRC+ 140) and was top two in exit velocity.  While there was BABIP luck fueling those numbers, the power was beyond legit.  He was also one of the highest rated defenders at 2B and I believe the highest rated base-runner in all of baseball.  To say he was flashing superstar potential would be a massive understatement.  What has happened since then I’m not sure and clearly his overall game is suffering from him pressing on the offensive side, but I will never doubt a kid with this much ability.  Maybe he never reaches his ceiling, but I’m going to give a lot more time to figure his shit out because we’ve already seen what it looks like when everything is clicking.

Nope, everyone needs to be superstars right away or else they're busts.

 

The irony is that everyone's favorite young players (Torres, Andujar, Albies) all have major issues. Torres is the worst defensive 2B in baseball, Andujar is the worst defensive 3B in baseball, and Albies forgot how to play baseball. 

[Jose Abreu]

Also, Moncada is still one of the highest rated defensive 2B. Fangraphs has him at #5