Moncada

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

I think that these comps are pretty unfair. Yes, he strikes out a lot. And it's incredibly frustrating as a fan, to watch your once "top prospect in all of baseball" that in order to acquire, you had to say goodbye to the best pitcher your team has had in your generation. BUT......

Just keep in mind that he's still incredibly young. He made his major league debut at 21 years old. He had roughly 1200 pro plate appearances in the minors. Gallo made his MLB debut at 24, with 2000 PAs in the minors. Gallo is also a one-dimensional player. Yoan is not. Have you watched Gallo play defense? He's terrible. We're talking Mackowiak in CF bad. Chris Taylor is a utility player who had one "lightning in a bottle" season and now Dodgers fans expect MVP numbers from a guy who in reality shouldn't be getting more than 300 or 400 PAs a season.

You could use the Yoan/Gallo comp as a cautionary tale surrounding Jimenez as well and why he is still in AAA. After all, Jimenez is also 21 (like Moncada was when he was called up) and also only has roughly 1200 PAs to his credit. However, Jimenez's MiLB numbers are leagues better than Moncada's, though.

Maybe he sucks and won't amount to anything other than a pedestrian 2B that shows flashes. I dunno. But comparing him to Joey Gallo and Chris Taylor is pretty unfair.

 

One part of this is guys like Soto, Benintendi, Albies, Acuna, etc., more than holding their own.

Another is the Sox internal record of despair on the position player front, and the fact that none of the young hitters (Davidson, Palka, Yolmer) we have given at-bats to has become the next Justin Turner, C.Taylor, Martin Gonzalez, JD Martinez, etc.  That’s not even counting Abreu and Avi.

We do have Moncada and Anderson, and Narvaez (who everyone hates defensively)?  Everyone else has been pretty much wasted playing time.  Our young pitching isn’t looking so hot, either.  Then you have Dunning, Hansen and Robert with major question marks currently attached to their names...who we absolutely need to come through, since Madrigal is the only guy there I am close to 100% confident in.  

With starting pitchers going 4-5 innings more frequently, there’s less focus on that area than having a young lineup like the Cubs, Astros or Yankees that can stay healthy.  Too much risk and variability.  And we still need to build a bullpen from scratch.  Look at Houston, with Cole, Verlander and Morton coming through trades or FA, just like Lester, Arrieta, Q, Darvish, Hamels.  Both teams used a combination of great scouting and deep farm systems to buy what they needed from the market.  Right now, we’ve got a 4/5 in Lopez and our best young pitcher likely will be gone before he’s needed in 2020.

 

Another issue is the fact that he would have the worst numbers of ANY regular on the Cubs.  Perhaps Javier Baez would be a better comp, then? Jimenez, Gonzalez, Crosby and Marte are the comps the Sox can’t live with, and obviously Stewart.  How can they hit on EVERY position prospect and even get an All-Star and top catcher in the game out of a player any team could have Rule 5’d a half decade ago?  (Yes, I realize we got Quintana close to the same way, but that was ages ago.)

Yoan Moncada Mahalanobis Comps

Rank	Name	KATOH+ Proj. WAR	Actual WAR
1	Ian Stewart	8.5	3.1
2	Andrew McCutchen	14.3	34.5
3	Melvin Upton	12.6	22.4
4	D’Angelo Jimenez	13.2	7.4
5	Alex Gonzalez	14.0	6.2
6	Bobby Crosby	11.5	 8.1
7	Andy Marte	13.8	0.3
8	Grady Sizemore	8.3	29.4
9	Jim Thome	12.0	27.8
10	Sean Burroughs	15.0	5.4

Edited August 1, 2018 by caulfield12

[Soxnfins]

Moncada will be fine.  Say he stops switch hitting and only remains a LHH.  I think a line of 261/354/450/804 is reasonable to expect from him...  42.5% of his hits are XBH and 8.5% of his PA are XBH, that's not bad. Granted this comparison is way off base and unfair, but Trout has 46.9% of his hits as XBH and 11% of his 478 PA are XBH.

 

Especially when he figures out he's not a switch hitter and the umps actually give him the benefit of the doubt once or twice.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Soxnfins

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Or the fact that he would have the worst numbers of ANY regular on the Cubs.  Perhaps Javier Baez would be a better comp, then? Jimenez, Gonzalez, Crosby and Marte are the comps the Sox can’t live with, and obviously Stewart.

Baez hit 159 in his first season as a Cub. What's your point? That Moncada is going to win the MVP after 5 seasons? 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Charlie Haeger's Knuckles

[caulfield12]

20 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Baez hit 159 in his first season as a Cub. What's your point? That Moncada is going to win the MVP after 5 seasons? 

That’s one of the possible outcomes, I suppose...to back up YOUR argument.

Even our two best acquisitions the last decade plus, Quentin and Eaton, were far from linear upwards in improvement...and then you have Beckham/Viciedo.  Three went downhill from their first seasons with the team, and we seemingly got so much from Eaton (hard to say what, at this exact moment) because he actually stayed on the field for one whole season, and got positive defensive numbers due to the positional change to a RFer piling up all those assists.

Edited August 1, 2018 by caulfield12

[The Mighty Mite]

3 hours ago, Lillian said:

I just went back and took another look at Moncada's Minor League career. I don't know why we should be surprised that he hasn't been any better than he has. He really never demonstrated any ability to dominate, in the Minors. He had a 30% strike out rate there, and we had no reason to think that it would improve, in the Majors.

If he were a prolific slugger, hitting 40 homers, his strike outs might be acceptable. However, he didn't hit for that much power, in the Minors and he isn't anywhere near that, now. I've said it before, but to me, he looks like a very "well built, speedy, athletic and "flashy" player, with a pretty LH swing. In other words; a lot of style and not much substance. To this point, the style hasn't translated to great baseball skill. Let's hope that he develops the skill, but so far, he really isn't very good.

I'd like to see if he could hit LH pitching, as a left handed hitter, like most of the great left handed hitters do. At this point, he is worthless, as a right handed hitter.

I'd also like to see where else he could play. We've discussed this, at great length, but it bares repeating; Second base should belong to Madrigal. I have a feeling that he is soon going to push the issue, because he doesn't really profile anywhere but second base, and that is where he should stay. Moncada might better be utilized at third. I don't really care what position he prefers, he isn't good enough to demand that the team accommodate his preference. He has the arm to play there and Madrigal does not. 

It's hard to justify keeping Eloy at AAA, considering how much better he has hit there, than Moncada did. Yet Moncada got the promotion pretty quickly. Eloy appears to be a much better hitter than Yoan and I'll be surprised if he doesn't have a better career. That's ok, if Yoan ends up hitting anything close to what Jimenez is likely to produce, he could be a valuable core piece, given his other tools. 

I'm not giving up on him, but I admit that I'm disappointed with Moncada's results, so far.

 

The first thing I did when we traded for Moncada was to look at his Minor league stats and said to myself; what's so great about this guy that we traded away the best pitcher in the AL for him.  A friend of mine who is a Red Sox fan told me what bothered him was giving up Basabe in the trade to us but not Moncada.

Edited August 1, 2018 by The Mighty Mite
add on

[chitownsportsfan]

well thank god @The Mighty Mite from sebring florida and his buddy knew that the real talent in the deal was Basabe.

[Flash]

I'm less concerned about Moncada than Anderson. I just don't see him as a SS on a championship team unless he is surrounded by positional all-stars. I'm more worried Hahn/mgnt. might feel that given the long-term contractual commitment to Anderson he is the SS of the future and as such, neglect seeking a real MLB SS and/or accellerate the development path of Laz and Sosa.

[Jose Abreu]

5 minutes ago, Flash said:

I'm less concerned about Moncada than Anderson. I just don't see him as a SS on a championship team unless he is surrounded by positional all-stars. I'm more worried Hahn/mgnt. might feel that given the long-term contractual commitment to Anderson he is the SS of the future and as such, neglect seeking a real MLB SS and/or accellerate the development path of Laz and Sosa.

The long-term contractual commitment is an asset. If we feel that Anderson isn't the guy for whatever reason, he'd be easy to trade. Most teams want cheap, long-term contracts for guys who can hold their own at shortstop. 

[Lillian]

This is interesting: In his entire career, including his couple of Cuban League, teen years, he has a total of 61 home runs and 618 strike outs, in 2,294 at bats.

That's 10 times as many strike outs, as home runs and only about 15 home runs, per season. He could always decide to concentrate more on making contact and utilizing his speed. That would be an alternative approach, just in case he can't ultimately figure out how to be a "slugger" at the Major League level. That is one of the advantages of having speed. It provides other ways to contribute. I'm hopeful that he can be that advertised 'Robinson Cano, with speed," but if not, he could still be a useful player. We do have to remind ourselves that he is still young. However, the results better start coming soon. Let's see what happens, the rest of this season. It would be nice to see some improvement.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Lillian

[SCCWS]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Are we really using strikeouts as the end all be all?  Go check Kris Bryant’s minor league strikeout rates.  

Moncada was rushed through the minors, his development will like take a little longer than expected.  Let’s all give the kid some god damn time.  He’s already shown significant improvement in July, which a loud group of posters here continue to ignore.

Actually the strikeouts are the key. If he is striking out 1 out of 3 ABS, as he reduces the strikeouts his across the board numbers will improve just by putting the ball in play. Hopefully the switch-hitting ends soon and that could have a positive impact on the strikeouts.  

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Baez hit 159 in his first season as a Cub. What's your point? That Moncada is going to win the MVP after 5 seasons? 

Baez is actually a great comp. Both kids got here hugely talented but extremely raw. It took Javy a number of years to grow through an extreme swing and miss games, along with some serious mental errors in the field.  

Sound familiar yet?

No one is saying that Moncada is guaranteed to be a star, but is showing a guy with the same toolbox and rawness as a path that has been blazed. 

[LittleHurt05]

39 minutes ago, Flash said:

I'm less concerned about Moncada than Anderson. I just don't see him as a SS on a championship team unless he is surrounded by positional all-stars. I'm more worried Hahn/mgnt. might feel that given the long-term contractual commitment to Anderson he is the SS of the future and as such, neglect seeking a real MLB SS and/or accellerate the development path of Laz and Sosa.

"No team will ever win a World Series with Juan Uribe as their SS."  Is that you B & B?

[Bananarchy]

6 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

"No team will ever win a World Series with Juan Uribe as their SS."  Is that you B & B?

I don't think he's saying we can't win with him at SS, but a WS winning White Sox team with TA at SS would clearly have one noticeable weak spot.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

I don't think he's saying we can't win with him at SS, but a WS winning White Sox team with TA at SS would clearly have one noticeable weak spot.

If by weak spot you mean league average starter then yes I would agree. I expect the next WS winning team to have at least 2 or 3 league average starters (just like the Cubs this year - Rizzo, Almora, Happ, and Heyward are all average to slightly above average starters this year as I would expect with TA in the future).

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

well thank god @The Mighty Mite from sebring florida and his buddy knew that the real talent in the deal was Basabe.

Only time will tell. Like I said in a previous post in this thread, if we see the same Moncada a year from now there will be some big time cause for concern. Hey, I'm pulling for the guy just like every other player that has put on a Sox uniform since I became a fan in 1952.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

30 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Only time will tell. Like I said in a previous post in this thread, if we see the same Moncada a year from now there will be some big time cause for concern. Hey, I'm pulling for the guy just like every other player that has put on a Sox uniform since I became a fan in 1952.

Baez was a ~2 WAR player up until this year (age 25 season). I think you have to give Moncada until thru July 2020 at least before worrying he's nothing more than a league average starter. If he hasn't progressed at all by then, it's time to start worrying and/or considering other options for 2B (e.g., Madrigal).

[Thad Bosley]

3 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

Not really.  The White Sox had no use for Chris Sale at the time.  

No one player breaks a rebuild.  No one looks at the Astros and seriously goes "Man, they blew that rebuild when they passed on Kris Bryant".  Quit living in the past.

No one is living in the past.  We are talking about the return you get when you trade a top 5 starter in all of baseball, at the age Chris Sale was at and the very team-friendly contract he was under, especially if the return is all prospects.  At the very least, you need one premium talent in return who will turn into a star.  At least one. or else your team failed in it's scouting and evaluation of the other team's farm system.  

[Bananarchy]

10 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

No one is living in the past.  We are talking about the return you get when you trade a top 5 starter in all of baseball, at the age Chris Sale was at and the very team-friendly contract he was under, especially if the return is all prospects.  At the very least, you need one premium talent in return who will turn into a star.  At least one. or else your team failed in it's scouting and evaluation of the other team's farm system.  

Dude.  Who the hell cares?  Chris Sale does not matter.  His career was wasted here.  At the very worst, we got worse and moved up the draft board.

We needed prospects.  We didn't need a top 5 starting pitcher when we moved Sale.  We don't need more anything.  We need, out of EVERY transaction that happened between blow it all up day and the end of the "rebuild" a team of nine fielders and a pitching staff.

And, FYI, everyone blew Moncada's scouting if he was a flop.  

Edited August 1, 2018 by AustinIllini

[Jack Parkman]

Moncada and Lopez are in Chicago for the exact same reason Giolito is. They all have one option left, and the Sox are going to make damn sure they have to use it before risking waivers. They all were brought to the 40 man on contending teams that thought they could help. Not the ideal situation but it is what it is. Moncada was brought up last year because for all intents and purposes, he had to start the season in Chicago, or have zero options left.  Because of this, why not bring him up last year and start the MLB learning curve because it doesn't matter anyway. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Lillian]

Thank you "Jack Parkman". I did not realize that.

[WBWSF]

Last night after Moncada struck out to end the game (his 3rd strikeout of the game) some of the fans started booing. Maybe this lovefest with Moncada and  this rebuild is starting to come to an end. It seems that alot of White Sox fans are tired of this losing.

[SCCWS]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Only time will tell. Like I said in a previous post in this thread, if we see the same Moncada a year from now there will be some big time cause for concern. Hey, I'm pulling for the guy just like every other player that has put on a Sox uniform since I became a fan in 1952.

For the poster who took a shot at Sebring, it is actually a nice town in central Florida. 

[Thad Bosley]

4 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

Dude.  Who the hell cares?  Chris Sale does not matter.  His career was wasted here.  At the very worst, we got worse and moved up the draft board.

We needed prospects.  We didn't need a top 5 starting pitcher when we moved Sale.  We don't need more anything.  We need, out of EVERY transaction that happened between blow it all up day and the end of the "rebuild" a team of nine fielders and a pitching staff.

And, FYI, everyone blew Moncada's scouting if he was a flop.  

“Who the hell cares?” on the return of a trade involving Chris Sale?  Answer - every single, serious White Sox fan, that’s who!  And the owner and front office.  Didn’t think that needed to be spelled out, but apparently it does.  

[The Mighty Mite]

16 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

For the poster who took a shot at Sebring, it is actually a nice town in central Florida. 

Thanks SCCWS, yes it is a nice town and we can be in Orlando in 60 minutes, Tampa and the Gulf Coast in 90 minutes and most important I play all the Golf  I want as we live on a golf course, 150-180 rounds a year.

[southsider2k5]

5 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

No one is living in the past.  We are talking about the return you get when you trade a top 5 starter in all of baseball, at the age Chris Sale was at and the very team-friendly contract he was under, especially if the return is all prospects.  At the very least, you need one premium talent in return who will turn into a star.  At least one. or else your team failed in it's scouting and evaluation of the other team's farm system.  

Yes!  That means no more 40 years posts!