Moncada

[ptatc]

15 hours ago, Jake said:

I always thought it was next to impossible to keep the ratio both steady enough and low enough, but that might be something I heard from some gym dopers.

It is difficult but there is a standard error built into the tests giving the athlete some leeway. It is nearly impossible with a clean baseline.

[harkness99]

It will all be fine.

[caulfield12]

2.3 fWAR now for 2017-2018

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/strikeouts/order/true

Tied for first in MLB strikeouts with Gallo.  Chris Davis and Chris Taylor the only other two from the Top 10 with under 21 homers.  Those luminaries would be Stanton, Judge, Goldschmidt, Upton, Harper and Khris Davis.

 

Tim Anderson barely ahead of Alex Gordon in RC27...and abysmal BB/K ratio.  Not good.  fWAR of 3.7 in nearly 1450 at-bats (2.5 seasons).  Yolmer knocking on the door of irrelevancy.

[Flash]

16 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

2.3 fWAR now for 2017-2018

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/strikeouts/order/true

Tied for first in MLB strikeouts with Gallo.  Chris Davis and Chris Taylor the only other two from the Top 10 with under 21 homers.  Those luminaries would be Stanton, Judge, Goldschmidt, Upton, Harper and Khris Davis.

 

Tim Anderson barely ahead of Alex Gordon in RC27...and abysmal BB/K ratio.  Not good.  fWAR of 3.7 in nearly 1450 at-bats (2.5 seasons).  Yolmer knocking on the door of irrelevancy.

Wish I could be more optimistic but I see these trends continuing, which is why its a bit disappointing we were relatively quiet at deadline. Pirates have an abundance of middle infeilders in high minors. Anderson and Moncada can't be the answers.

 

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

2.3 fWAR now for 2017-2018

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/strikeouts/order/true

Tied for first in MLB strikeouts with Gallo.  Chris Davis and Chris Taylor the only other two from the Top 10 with under 21 homers.  Those luminaries would be Stanton, Judge, Goldschmidt, Upton, Harper and Khris Davis.

 

Tim Anderson barely ahead of Alex Gordon in RC27...and abysmal BB/K ratio.  Not good.  fWAR of 3.7 in nearly 1450 at-bats (2.5 seasons).  Yolmer knocking on the door of irrelevancy.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Lol...what?  Moncada & Anderson can’t be the answers in the middle infield?  Do people here honestly think before they post this garbage?

Anderson has improved his BB & K rates this year while improving his power.  He’s providing positive value in the field & on the bases.  The only thing holding him back a bit is a BABIP a good 40 points below where it should be.  This has been a fanatic year for Tim.

As for Moncada, he showed significant improvement in July.  14.8% BB rate & 25.9% K rate.  He was able to maintain a pretty good ISO of .176.  All this was good for a .750 & 108 wRC+.  Given his .295 BABIP, those numbers could have been a little better with some more luck.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

Fine, they’re guaranteed to average 3-4 fWAR the next five years.   How low are we setting our standards these days?

Nobody in the world, when that trade was made, expected Moncada to be anything less than an 850+ ops, 4+ fWAR player.

We can rationalize all we want why he has disappointed or what happened to his fielding the last two months, but this almost forces Jimenez to be a superstar...or for the White Sox to spend hundreds of millions in free agency, unless Kopech and Cease can both be counted on to line up as #1 and #2 for the next decade.

[Lillian]

I just went back and took another look at Moncada's Minor League career. I don't know why we should be surprised that he hasn't been any better than he has. He really never demonstrated any ability to dominate, in the Minors. He had a 30% strike out rate there, and we had no reason to think that it would improve, in the Majors.

If he were a prolific slugger, hitting 40 homers, his strike outs might be acceptable. However, he didn't hit for that much power, in the Minors and he isn't anywhere near that, now. I've said it before, but to me, he looks like a very "well built, speedy, athletic and "flashy" player, with a pretty LH swing. In other words; a lot of style and not much substance. To this point, the style hasn't translated to great baseball skill. Let's hope that he develops the skill, but so far, he really isn't very good.

I'd like to see if he could hit LH pitching, as a left handed hitter, like most of the great left handed hitters do. At this point, he is worthless, as a right handed hitter.

I'd also like to see where else he could play. We've discussed this, at great length, but it bares repeating; Second base should belong to Madrigal. I have a feeling that he is soon going to push the issue, because he doesn't really profile anywhere but second base, and that is where he should stay. Moncada might better be utilized at third. I don't really care what position he prefers, he isn't good enough to demand that the team accommodate his preference. He has the arm to play there and Madrigal does not. 

It's hard to justify keeping Eloy at AAA, considering how much better he has hit there, than Moncada did. Yet Moncada got the promotion pretty quickly. Eloy appears to be a much better hitter than Yoan and I'll be surprised if he doesn't have a better career. That's ok, if Yoan ends up hitting anything close to what Jimenez is likely to produce, he could be a valuable core piece, given his other tools. 

I'm not giving up on him, but I admit that I'm disappointed with Moncada's results, so far.

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Lillian

[SCCWS]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Fine, they’re guaranteed to average 3-4 fWAR the next five years.   How low are we setting our standards these days?

Nobody in the world, when that trade was made, expected Moncada to be anything less than an 850+ ops, 4+ fWAR player.

We can rationalize all we want why he has disappointed or what happened to his fielding the last two months, but this almost forces Jimenez to be a superstar...or for the White Sox to spend hundreds of millions in free agency, unless Kopech and Cease can both be counted on to line up as #1 and #2 for the next decade.

Moncada is lucky he is on a bad team. At least he doesn't have the pressure of playing in important games.  If he was on a good team battling for a playoff spot, he would most likely end up a platoon player until he figures out lefties or just bats LH. 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Fine, they’re guaranteed to average 3-4 fWAR the next five years.   How low are we setting our standards these days?

Nobody in the world, when that trade was made, expected Moncada to be anything less than an 850+ ops, 4+ fWAR player.

We can rationalize all we want why he has disappointed or what happened to his fielding the last two months, but this almost forces Jimenez to be a superstar...or for the White Sox to spend hundreds of millions in free agency, unless Kopech and Cease can both be counted on to line up as #1 and #2 for the next decade.

JFC Caulfield, neither kid is a finished product.  They 25 & 23 years old FFS.  People’s need for instant gratification here is infuriating.

[Chicago White Sox]

13 minutes ago, Lillian said:

I just went back and took another look at Moncada's Minor League career. I don't know why we should be surprised that he hasn't been any better than he has. He really never demonstrated any ability to dominate, in the Minors. He had a 30% strike out rate there, and we had no reason to think that it would improve, in the Majors.

If he were a prolific slugger, hitting 40 homers, his strike outs might be acceptable. However, he didn't hit for that much power, in the Minors and he isn't anywhere near that, now. I've said it before, but to me, he looks like a very "well built, speedy, athletic and "flashy" player, with not that much baseball skill. Let's hope that he develops the skill, but so far, he really isn't very good.

I'd like to see if he could hit LH pitching, as a left handed hitter, like most of the great left handed hitters do. At this point, he is worthless, as a right handed hitter.

I'd also like to see where else he could play. We've discussed this, at great length, but it bares repeating; Second base should belong to Madrigal. I have a feeling that he is soon going to push the issue, because he doesn't really profile anywhere but second base, and that is where he should stay. Moncada might better be utilized at third. I don't really care what position he prefers, he isn't good enough to demand that the team accommodate his preference. He has the arm to play there and Madrigal does not. 

It's hard to justify keeping Eloy at AAA, considering how much better he has hit there, than Moncada did. Yet Moncada got the promotion pretty quickly. Eloy appears to be a much better hitter than Yoan and I'll be surprised if he doesn't have a better career. That's ok, if Yoan ends up hitting anything close to what Jimenez is likely to produce, he could be a valuable core piece, given his other tools. 

I'm not giving up on him, but I admit that I'm disappointed with Moncada's results, so far.

 

Are we really using strikeouts as the end all be all?  Go check Kris Bryant’s minor league strikeout rates.  

Moncada was rushed through the minors, his development will like take a little longer than expected.  Let’s all give the kid some god damn time.  He’s already shown significant improvement in July, which a loud group of posters here continue to ignore.

[Lillian]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Are we really using strikeouts as the end all be all?  Go check Kris Bryant’s minor league strikeout rates.  

Moncada was rushed through the minors, his development will like take a little longer than expected.  Let’s all give the kid some god damn time.  He’s already shown significant improvement in July, which a loud group of posters here continue to ignore.

As I said, the strike outs should be considered as a relative factor: "If he were a prolific slugger, hitting 40 homers, his strike outs might be acceptable." Bryant's last full year in the Minors, he hit 34 doubles, 43 homers and drove in 110 runs, while hitting .325 with an on base % of .438. I'll take strike outs, with that kind of production, but not with Moncada's.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Moncada may have been overhyped but I still expect him to be a consistent 3-4 WAR type, which is fantastic when you consider it’s been awhile since the Sox had an infielder (not named Abreu) capable of doing that consistently. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

At the end of the day, the Sox don’t NEED Moncada to be a star for the rebuild to work. What they need is solid production across the diamond and a strong pitching staff. Big picture, pitching is a bigger concern to me but it’s far too early to be overly concerned there either considering we haven’t seen what guys like Kopech, Cease, Dunning, etc. are capable of at the big league level.

[Dam8610]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...what?  Moncada & Anderson can’t be the answers in the middle infield?  Do people here honestly think before they post this garbage?

Anderson has improved his BB & K rates this year while improving his power.  He’s providing positive value in the field & on the bases.  The only thing holding him back a bit is a BABIP a good 40 points below where it should be.  This has been a fanatic year for Tim.

As for Moncada, he showed significant improvement in July.  14.8% BB rate & 25.9% K rate.  He was able to maintain a pretty good ISO of .176.  All this was good for a .750 & 108 wRC+.  Given his .295 BABIP, those numbers could have been a little better with some more luck.

I'd like a higher ISO, but the rest of those numbers from Moncada are very encouraging and in line with what he was doing before the injury. Maybe he was playing through being hurt and his true talent right now (at age 23) is a 15% BB, 25% K, .175-.225 ISO kind of player. With a .320 BABIP, that would make a pretty strong line, something like .260/.380/.460, which is a very good player. He's also at the point on the aging curve where he's highly likely to continue getting better. To me, that seems like a player to be excited about.

[southsider2k5]

So Longo would rather have Alen Hansen over Yoan Moncada.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

[ChiSox59]

The teeth gnashing over Moncada on this message board is crazy.

If he is still a below average hitter and leading the league in strikeouts at the end of 2019, I will start to be concerned.  Until then, just give the kid some time to figure it out.  

[TaylorStSox]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

At the end of the day, the Sox don’t NEED Moncada to be a star for the rebuild to work.

No, they really don't.

[Panerista]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

At the end of the day, the Sox don’t NEED Moncada to be a star for the rebuild to work. What they need is solid production across the diamond and a strong pitching staff. Big picture, pitching is a bigger concern to me but it’s far too early to be overly concerned there either considering we haven’t seen what guys like Kopech, Cease, Dunning, etc. are capable of at the big league level.

Right.  The whole point of a strong farm is to generate multiple talented MLB players.  No one player can make or break that.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, TaylorStSox said:

No, they really don't.

Realistically, if they get 27-30 WAR from their offense, they will be contenders as long as the pitching is above average. So even if Moncada is a good but not great player in a couple years, they can still hit that number as a team. Of course, the other positions need to be filled with at least league average or better starters.

C - 2.0, 1B - 2.5, 2B - 3.5, SS - 3.0, 3B - 2.0, LF - 4.5, CF - 3.5, RF - 2.5, DH - 2.0, Bench - 3.0 = 28.5

There are no "stars" in that group with the exception of perhaps LF. Even 4.5 WAR isn't mega-star level, it's simply all-star level, which I think is a fair expectation for Eloy at this point. What they can't have is a black hole at multiple positions because then they would need multiple stars at other positions to offset it. Also consider that the Sox position players (excluding the OF) rate near league average already this season despite underwhelming results from Abreu, Moncada, and Sanchez. I exclude the OF because their OF is the worst in baseball yet we know none of these guys will still be here in 2020 with the possible exception of Avi if he's extended (and he should be good for ~2.5 WAR when healthy if extended).

 

[TaylorStSox]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Realistically, if they get 27-30 WAR from their offense, they will be contenders as long as the pitching is above average. So even if Moncada is a good but not great player in a couple years, they can still hit that number as a team. Of course, the other positions need to be filled with at least league average or better starters.

C - 2.0, 1B - 2.5, 2B - 3.5, SS - 3.0, 3B - 2.0, LF - 4.5, CF - 3.5, RF - 2.5, DH - 2.0, Bench - 3.0 = 28.5

There are no "stars" in that group with the exception of perhaps LF. Even 4.5 WAR isn't mega-star level, it's simply all-star level, which I think is a fair expectation for Eloy at this point. What they can't have is a black hole at multiple positions because then they would need multiple stars at other positions to offset it. Also consider that the Sox position players (excluding the OF) rate near league average already this season despite underwhelming results from Abreu, Moncada, and Sanchez. I exclude the OF because their OF is the worst in baseball yet we know none of these guys will still be here in 2020 with the possible exception of Avi if he's extended (and he should be good for ~2.5 WAR when healthy if extended).

 

The vast majority of these players won't be on the team when it matters. They don't "need" Yoan to be a superstar to become a good team. They "need" positive contributions from the majority of positional players and a damn good pitching staff. Luckily, baseball still isn't played on a spreadsheet. 

[Thad Bosley]

24 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

No, they really don't.

As the headliner in the trade for Chris Sale, they most certainly do.  

[Jose Abreu]

3 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

As the headliner in the trade for Chris Sale, they most certainly do.  

If they get 2-3 solid MLB regulars in Moncada, Kopech, and Basabe, they definitely do not unless you have some arbitrary idea in your head that we must only trade Sale for bona fide stars. Trading Sale for 6-7 years each of 2-3 solid regulars would actually be a massive win for us. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jose Abreu

[Panerista]

4 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

As the headliner in the trade for Chris Sale, they most certainly do.  

Not really.  The White Sox had no use for Chris Sale at the time.  

No one player breaks a rebuild.  No one looks at the Astros and seriously goes "Man, they blew that rebuild when they passed on Kris Bryant".  Quit living in the past.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Not really.  The White Sox had no use for Chris Sale at the time.  

No one player breaks a rebuild.  No one looks at the Astros and seriously goes "Man, they blew that rebuild when they passed on Kris Bryant".  Quit living in the past.

And Carlos Rodon.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

2.3 fWAR now for 2017-2018

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/strikeouts/order/true

Tied for first in MLB strikeouts with Gallo.  Chris Davis and Chris Taylor the only other two from the Top 10 with under 21 homers.  Those luminaries would be Stanton, Judge, Goldschmidt, Upton, Harper and Khris Davis.

 

Tim Anderson barely ahead of Alex Gordon in RC27...and abysmal BB/K ratio.  Not good.  fWAR of 3.7 in nearly 1450 at-bats (2.5 seasons).  Yolmer knocking on the door of irrelevancy.

I think that these comps are pretty unfair. Yes, he strikes out a lot. And it's incredibly frustrating as a fan, to watch your once "top prospect in all of baseball" that in order to acquire, you had to say goodbye to the best pitcher your team has had in your generation. BUT......

Just keep in mind that he's still incredibly young. He made his major league debut at 21 years old. He had roughly 1200 pro plate appearances in the minors. Gallo made his MLB debut at 24, with 2000 PAs in the minors. Gallo is also a one-dimensional player. Yoan is not. Have you watched Gallo play defense? He's terrible. We're talking Mackowiak in CF bad. Chris Taylor is a utility player who had one "lightning in a bottle" season and now Dodgers fans expect MVP numbers from a guy who in reality shouldn't be getting more than 300 or 400 PAs a season.

You could use the Yoan/Gallo comp as a cautionary tale surrounding Jimenez as well and why he is still in AAA. After all, Jimenez is also 21 (like Moncada was when he was called up) and also only has roughly 1200 PAs to his credit. However, Jimenez's MiLB numbers are leagues better than Moncada's, though.

Maybe he sucks and won't amount to anything other than a pedestrian 2B that shows flashes. I dunno. But comparing him to Joey Gallo and Chris Taylor is pretty unfair.