Race for the worst 2018 record (Top 5 pick) again

[Balta1701]

And guys who no longer counted on that list included 1999s top prospect Carlos Lee, 2000s #2 prospect Jon Garland, and a guy who snuck in at the end of the 2000 top 10 who was rising fast and who got #56. 

Throw in a couple of the guys that they continued developing and then traded for Garcia and Podsednik, and you've got the majority of the WAR on that 2005 team within 1 trade of the team's minor league system.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

And guys who no longer counted on that list included 1999s top prospect Carlos Lee, 2000s #2 prospect Jon Garland, and a guy who snuck in at the end of the 2000 top 10 who was rising fast and who got #56. 

Throw in a couple of the guys that they continued developing and then traded for Garcia and Podsednik, and you've got the majority of the WAR on that 2005 team within 1 trade of the team's minor league system.

And Contreras/Loiaza with McCarthy coming on strong...Uribe for Miles, etc.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

And Contreras/Loiaza with McCarthy coming on strong...Uribe for Miles, etc.

Dude listing the entire roster does nothing to support or oppose my point. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Dude listing the entire roster does nothing to support or oppose my point. 

The trade for Contreras was the most important of all to winning that year, and merely cost a waiver claim guy.   Jenks was another waiver claim.  No title without both of those guys.

Edited June 26, 2018 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The trade for Contreras was the most important of all to winning that year, and merely cost a waiver claim guy.   Jenks was another waiver claim.  No title without both of those guys.

So based on what you have chosen to highlight, you would argue that the strong system was rather unimportant to winning the world series, and therefore you would also argue that the current rebuild is a mistake.

At least you've gone in clearly with one point, rather than listing players you listed the things you believe were the most important, a couple of successful waiver claims.

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And guys who no longer counted on that list included 1999s top prospect Carlos Lee, 2000s #2 prospect Jon Garland, and a guy who snuck in at the end of the 2000 top 10 who was rising fast and who got #56. 

Throw in a couple of the guys that they continued developing and then traded for Garcia and Podsednik, and you've got the majority of the WAR on that 2005 team within 1 trade of the team's minor league system.

The fact is, their system at the time wasn't as stack as reported. Again, not exactly perennial All Stars. Maggs was, but he was so highly thought of, the White Sox exposed him to the rule 5 draft, and everyone passed. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

The fact is, their system at the time wasn't as stack as reported. Again, not exactly perennial All Stars. Maggs was, but he was so highly thought of, the White Sox exposed him to the rule 5 draft, and everyone passed. 

So, since you are arguing that a strong system is not that important to developing a contender, what is it in your eyes the White Sox did wrong over the 8 year period from 2009-2016 that led to them being far out of the race 6 out of 8 years? Poor managing? Poor big league scouting? 

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So, since you are arguing that a strong system is not that important to developing a contender, what is it in your eyes the White Sox did wrong over the 8 year period from 2009-2016 that led to them being far out of the race 6 out of 8 years? Poor managing? Poor big league scouting? 

They had a couple of years in that time period they were pretty good. But they made bad signings and bad trades, and developed about no one. You don't have to have the strongest farm system in the world, you can get by being mediocre if you can do the other things  decently.  I admit, they have to develop someone, which was a total failure position player wise. And they went from signing Dye types to Erstad types. The White Sox wont the WS not because they developed a ton of players. They had a few and signed Iguchi, AJP, Dye that offseason. Rare you go 3 for 3 with free agents. Got Jenks on waivers, made a great trade for Contreras and where lucky Freddy Garcia was so close to Ozzie Guillen. 

2005 line up position players developed by the White Sox

c-nope

1b-nope

2b-nope

ss-nope

3B-yes

LF-nope

CF-yes

RF-nope

DH-for the most part, nope

rotation-yes, nope, nope, yes, nope

Bullpen-mostly nope

Edited June 26, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Sticky Stuff]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So, since you are arguing that a strong system is not that important to developing a contender, what is it in your eyes the White Sox did wrong over the 8 year period from 2009-2016 that led to them being far out of the race 6 out of 8 years? Poor managing? Poor big league scouting? 

KW’s ego and Robin Ventura are definitely in the top 5 reasons

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

So based on what you have chosen to highlight, you would argue that the strong system was rather unimportant to winning the world series, and therefore you would also argue that the current rebuild is a mistake.

At least you've gone in clearly with one point, rather than listing players you listed the things you believe were the most important, a couple of successful waiver claims.

1) Perfect combination of FA moves getting AJ after SF soured on him, Dye coming off a major injury, Iguchi off KW parsing JPL videos, Hermanson for 2/3rd’s of that year, Politte the previous year, El Duque for leadership...Jenks as a waiver claim.  The Contreras will be fine away from the pressure cooker of NY/Loiaza’s cutter is fading trade as well as creating a baserunning threat with the Pods/Lee trade.

2) The farm system produced Garland (through Karchner), Buehrle, Crede, Rowand and the pieces to trade for Garcia and Everett.

Important, but the secondary factor to a run of blind luck with #1.

[flavum]

3.5 games better than KC

Marlins would have to be 5 games worse to pass the Sox.

The Sox are in the 3rd pick comfort zone right now. I wouldn’t be mad or surprised if they stay at 3 the final 96 days of the season. 

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, flavum said:

3.5 games better than KC

Marlins would have to be 5 games worse to pass the Sox.

The Sox are in the 3rd pick comfort zone right now. I wouldn’t be mad or surprised if they stay at 3 the final 96 days of the season. 

I think 3rd is the most likely outcome.

[Lillian]

In contrast to some of the other teams, which are in the "race to the bottom," the Sox have few contributing assets, which will be traded, at the deadline. Moreover, they have just gotten back Rodon and the 'Garcias'. The improvement in the lineup, coupled with the continuing development of the young guys, and oh yes, a surprisingly decent bullpen, could surprise a lot of people.

 If they trade both Soria and Shields, it may depend upon how well their replacements do. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if this team played .500 baseball, the rest of the way. That would leave them with a final record, 23 games below .500. 68 wins would not put them in a great position for the Draft, but it would be fun to watch and would hopefully start to create a winning culture, for this young core. Frankly, I'm more concerned about how well our current crop of prospects progress, than I am about the potential for another couple of top Draft picks. I'd be satisfied, if they end up picking in the top 7 or 8.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Lillian

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Lillian said:

In contrast to some of the other teams, which are in the "race to the bottom," the Sox have few contributing assets, which will be traded, at the deadline. Moreover, they have just gotten back Rodon and the 'Garcias'. The improvement in the lineup, coupled with the continuing development of the young guys, and oh yes, a surprisingly decent bullpen, could surprise a lot of people. If they trade both Soria and Shields, it may depend upon how well their replacements do. I wouldn't be surprised if this team played .500 baseball, the rest of the way. That would leave them with a final record, 23 games below .500. 68 wins would not put them in a great position for the Draft, but it would be fun to watch and would hopefully start to create a winning culture for this young core. 

If this team was healthy for the first few months, with Kopech and Eloy being added in May (which I guess was never gonna happen), I truly think we'd be .500 or better right now. Avi/Leury/Rodon and even Nicky make such a big difference 

[flavum]

81 game records:

Bal 23-58

KC 25-56

Sox 28-53

Mia 32-49

mets are 32-47

Cin 34-47

Sox go 34-47 in the second half. Even 100 losses, 3rd or 4th pick.

 

 

[greg775]

On 6/28/2018 at 9:43 AM, Jose Abreu said:

If this team was healthy for the first few months, with Kopech and Eloy being added in May (which I guess was never gonna happen), I truly think we'd be .500 or better right now. Avi/Leury/Rodon and even Nicky make such a big difference 

That's why I say this rebuild didn't have to be this painful. Sox could have added some bullpen pieces without affecting the rebuild's key core. Let's face it Sox decided to tank for a few slots in the draft each year and to me that's irresponsible. They still coulda traded Sale and Q and Robertson and acquired Robert and got the main haul for the rebuild. Might not win the division with what we'd have so Hahn decided to suck up and save Jerry and the investors zillions of dollars and line their wallets til we're ready to compete. Makes me mad/sad.

[flavum]

The Orioles and Royals faced each other in the ALCS four years ago. Now they’ll both lose 110+ games. It happens quick- both ways.

[Bob Sacamano]

32 minutes ago, greg775 said:

That's why I say this rebuild didn't have to be this painful. Sox could have added some bullpen pieces without affecting the rebuild's key core. Let's face it Sox decided to tank for a few slots in the draft each year and to me that's irresponsible. They still coulda traded Sale and Q and Robertson and acquired Robert and got the main haul for the rebuild. Might not win the division with what we'd have so Hahn decided to suck up and save Jerry and the investors zillions of dollars and line their wallets til we're ready to compete. Makes me mad/sad.

Lol

[reiks12]

I think we can nab #2, theres no way i see anyone outdoing the orioles in suckage

[flavum]

1 minute ago, reiks12 said:

I think we can nab #2, theres no way i see anyone outdoing the orioles in suckage

12 games left with KC. I’m all for the Sox going 3-9, but I doubt it happens.

[mac9001]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

That's why I say this rebuild didn't have to be this painful. Sox could have added some bullpen pieces without affecting the rebuild's key core. Let's face it Sox decided to tank for a few slots in the draft each year and to me that's irresponsible. They still coulda traded Sale and Q and Robertson and acquired Robert and got the main haul for the rebuild. Might not win the division with what we'd have so Hahn decided to suck up and save Jerry and the investors zillions of dollars and line their wallets til we're ready to compete. Makes me mad/sad.

That's exactly what's likely to happen this off-season (big bullpen spend).  Just sit back and give it a few months. 

[Baker]

I’m worried about the Tigers. That’s an outfit that knows how to run a proper Tanking. Finished last September with a 3-19 record. There is going to be some ungodly baseball in this division. 

[Timmy U]

Tigers have lost 11 in a row to get right back into this thing.  Thank god we have sucked against them head to head.

[flavum]

If the Orioles beat the Angels today, it will be their first win against an AL west team. They're 0-15.

The Orioles have 26 games left with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Astros...including the final ten games of the season.

They're going to lose 115 games....maybe more once Machado is gone.

 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

2 hours ago, flavum said:

If the Orioles beat the Angels today, it will be their first win against an AL west team. They're 0-15.

The Orioles have 26 games left with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Astros...including the final ten games of the season.

They're going to lose 115 games....maybe more once Machado is gone.

 

Baltimore is gonna lose a 100 games for the next five years. That is a franchise without much hope.