It is going to get worse before it gets better

[Ducksnort]

https://670thescore.radio.com/articles/rick-hahn-season-may-be-toughest-part-rebuild-white-sox

Rick Hahn- "You've heard me say too much at the end of last season that I suspect this year's going to be perhaps the toughest part of the rebuild," 

This fiasco of a season was predicted by the Mastermind of the rebuild. It should not be a surprise to us. In reality, this is part of the plan. I believe what we are seeing now isn't even the top of the iceberg. In fact, when Kopech comes up and starts his growing pains, I expect people to say this rebuild is a bust. Remember he is far from a finished project.

I don't even think Jimenez will be up to the Majors before September as some might suggest. He might even regress a bit in the minors.

Patience people. In due time it will come. If you can ride this year out, the rewards will be more than worth it.

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Scoots

[southsider2k5]

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone really.  This is year 2, and the first full season without guys like Quintana, Melky, and company around to mask the growth of the younger kids.  The rebuild has barely begun. 

[GenericUserName]

Timeline hasn't changed. 2020 is when our reign begins. Anything before that was always just going to be the cherry on top. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

Hahns going to say that regardless to help save his job. GMs will always lower expectations for themselves especially for a rebuild. No reason to listen to that quote at all.

[iamshack]

Not sure Hahn needs to be worried about his job right now...

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Hahns going to say that regardless to help save his job. GMs will always lower expectations for themselves especially for a rebuild. No reason to listen to that quote at all.

Other than the fact it is true...

[reiks12]

Hahn has job security because good results aren't expected yet

[Buehrle>Wood]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Other than the fact it is true...

It seems like that narrative changed 15 games in the season then.

 

But it doesnt matter though if it's true or not. Hahn is going to say it regardless so I'm not sure why anyone would put faith in such a quote.

 

 

[GreenSox]

Good results were expected in 2013, 2015, and 2016, and Hahn didn't get them, nor did he lose his job.

Edited April 21, 2018 by GreenSox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I totally understand what this year is about but I can't say I'm 100% in line with it. Other teams on the rebound like the Phils and Braves were a little more proactive in improving their teams. The Braves picking up Preston Tucker from the Astros  is paying early dividends. 

I really like what the Twins did this off season. They got starters and relievers most of whom I thought would be good fits for the Sox and got most of them  at bargain prices. They took advantage of the down market to nab Logan Morrison. They got Ordorizzi, Lance Lynn, Rodney , Duke and Reed. They signed Michael Pineda even though he will miss this year . They spent around $52M for all that and with the Reed and Pineda deals both being 2 years and Ordorizzi signed through next year also. Reed was easily available for the Sox because he only wanted to be on teams in the Midwest.

It is no secret I advocated signing Moustaskas and thought JD Martinez would also be beneficial. I advocated more moves with the hopes of being fairly competitive this year in order for key free agents to consider the Sox an up and coming team. It's much harder to convince them of that if the Sox approach 100 losses. The Sox could  have made some hard decisions on the Davidson and Engel types on the roster rather than give them another year to develop.

I know many of you think that money will determine where free agents sign but it is also about winning. It's hard to pass up big bucks and winning teams like the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox. Those teams are doing all they can to avoid luxury taxes and be viable players for the upcoming free agents. They are our competition for all those guys everyone seems to think the Sox have a shot at.

Apparently the Sox tried to trade for Yelich and made a late run at Logan Morrison and we all remember the idiotic idea of trading for Machado in the hopes of resigning him.

The Sox payroll is the lowest its been since 2004 and next year the commitments are very low so in theory the Sox will have plenty of money available or free agents. The Sox could have made moves this off season cheaply to either be more competitive and have a  small shot to make the playoffs or have better pieces to sell off.

I guess my main point is would it have been so bad to make earlier decisions on guys like Davidson, Engel, Delmonico and try to be more competitive ? Chances are those types will not develop into long term starters or even very tradable pieces any more so than guys they could have signed in the off season. The only thing the Sox did this off season was save more money and delay the inevitable decisions on players who most likely will not succeed. Most of those guys are flawed either defensively or offensively . I want the Sox to be a more attractive destination for free agents but I am losing hope that if the Sox put a lot of eggs into the free agent market and end up without a couple of big name players they are screwed and I will blame it on too much losing.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

It seems like that narrative changed 15 games in the season then.

 

But it doesnt matter though if it's true or not. Hahn is going to say it regardless so I'm not sure why anyone would put faith in such a quote.

 

 

The fans narrative has changed.  Management has been saying the same thing all along.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I totally understand what this year is about but I can't say I'm 100% in line with it. Other teams on the rebound like the Phils and Braves were a little more proactive in improving their teams. The Braves picking up Preston Tucker from the Astros  is paying early dividends. 

I really like what the Twins did this off season. They got starters and relievers most of whom I thought would be good fits for the Sox and got most of them  at bargain prices. They took advantage of the down market to nab Logan Morrison. They got Ordorizzi, Lance Lynn, Rodney , Duke and Reed. They signed Michael Pineda even though he will miss this year . They spent around $52M for all that and with the Reed and Pineda deals both being 2 years and Ordorizzi signed through next year also. Reed was easily available for the Sox because he only wanted to be on teams in the Midwest.

It is no secret I advocated signing Moustaskas and thought JD Martinez would also be beneficial. I advocated more moves with the hopes of being fairly competitive this year in order for key free agents to consider the Sox an up and coming team. It's much harder to convince them of that if the Sox approach 100 losses. The Sox could  have made some hard decisions on the Davidson and Engel types on the roster rather than give them another year to develop.

I know many of you think that money will determine where free agents sign but it is also about winning. It's hard to pass up big bucks and winning teams like the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox. Those teams are doing all they can to avoid luxury taxes and be viable players for the upcoming free agents. They are our competition for all those guys everyone seems to think the Sox have a shot at.

Apparently the Sox tried to trade for Yelich and made a late run at Logan Morrison and we all remember the idiotic idea of trading for Machado in the hopes of resigning him.

The Sox payroll is the lowest its been since 2004 and next year the commitments are very low so in theory the Sox will have plenty of money available or free agents. The Sox could have made moves this off season cheaply to either be more competitive and have a  small shot to make the playoffs or have better pieces to sell off.

I guess my main point is would it have been so bad to make earlier decisions on guys like Davidson, Engel, Delmonico and try to be more competitive ? Chances are those types will not develop into long term starters or even very tradable pieces any more so than guys they could have signed in the off season. The only thing the Sox did this off season was save more money and delay the inevitable decisions on players who most likely will not succeed. Most of those guys are flawed either defensively or offensively . I want the Sox to be a more attractive destination for free agents but I am losing hope that if the Sox put a lot of eggs into the free agent market and end up without a couple of big name players they are screwed and I will blame it on too much losing.

 

 

How do you make decisions on guys literally before you play them?

[Baron]

Cool...dont expect any of the top free agents to sign here this next offseason. Maybe the one after that. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Baron

[Ducksnort]

2 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Hahns going to say that regardless to help save his job. GMs will always lower expectations for themselves especially for a rebuild. No reason to listen to that quote at all.

Then what are you expecting exactly? If there is no reason to listen to the leader of our team, why not just go follow a different one? I can understand being skeptical because of how this team performed when they were "supposed" to win, but with the kinds of trades Hahn pulled off a couple off-season ago, I would imagine that gives him some credence. At least the team acknowledged what they were doing before, filling in gaps with free agents, wasn't working. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

How do you make decisions on guys literally before you play them?

You know the answer to that. You look at age , defense  and offense in minor leagues and in the show. So what if you lose a DH ( Davidson) there are tons of those available . If Delmonico cant play better D  he is also a DH. Engel is also getting to the age  where results matter. I want these guys to become stars too but odds are they won't and won't even be starters for many, if any, major league teams. You scout them , you know their age and history and you come to a conclusion. It isn't hard and you play the odds.

Just saying the way I suggested is just an alternative reality. No way of knowing how this all plays out. But if it plays out the way I'm hoping it doesn't ,with the Sox not signing any major FA's, I will be disappointed and look to the 2017-18  offseason and 2018 season as the main culprits. If the Sox can still win a Championship without big name free agents then I will be extremely impressed and will have worried about all this for nothing .

[Ducksnort]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I totally understand what this year is about but I can't say I'm 100% in line with it. Other teams on the rebound like the Phils and Braves were a little more proactive in improving their teams. The Braves picking up Preston Tucker from the Astros  is paying early dividends. 

I really like what the Twins did this off season. They got starters and relievers most of whom I thought would be good fits for the Sox and got most of them  at bargain prices. They took advantage of the down market to nab Logan Morrison. They got Ordorizzi, Lance Lynn, Rodney , Duke and Reed. They signed Michael Pineda even though he will miss this year . They spent around $52M for all that and with the Reed and Pineda deals both being 2 years and Ordorizzi signed through next year also. Reed was easily available for the Sox because he only wanted to be on teams in the Midwest.

It is no secret I advocated signing Moustaskas and thought JD Martinez would also be beneficial. I advocated more moves with the hopes of being fairly competitive this year in order for key free agents to consider the Sox an up and coming team. It's much harder to convince them of that if the Sox approach 100 losses. The Sox could  have made some hard decisions on the Davidson and Engel types on the roster rather than give them another year to develop.

I know many of you think that money will determine where free agents sign but it is also about winning. It's hard to pass up big bucks and winning teams like the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox. Those teams are doing all they can to avoid luxury taxes and be viable players for the upcoming free agents. They are our competition for all those guys everyone seems to think the Sox have a shot at.

Apparently the Sox tried to trade for Yelich and made a late run at Logan Morrison and we all remember the idiotic idea of trading for Machado in the hopes of resigning him.

The Sox payroll is the lowest its been since 2004 and next year the commitments are very low so in theory the Sox will have plenty of money available or free agents. The Sox could have made moves this off season cheaply to either be more competitive and have a  small shot to make the playoffs or have better pieces to sell off.

I guess my main point is would it have been so bad to make earlier decisions on guys like Davidson, Engel, Delmonico and try to be more competitive ? Chances are those types will not develop into long term starters or even very tradable pieces any more so than guys they could have signed in the off season. The only thing the Sox did this off season was save more money and delay the inevitable decisions on players who most likely will not succeed. Most of those guys are flawed either defensively or offensively . I want the Sox to be a more attractive destination for free agents but I am losing hope that if the Sox put a lot of eggs into the free agent market and end up without a couple of big name players they are screwed and I will blame it on too much losing.

 

 

The Braves, the Phillies, and arguably the Twins are also a year or two ahead of us in the rebuilding process.

[Dam8610]

Did the Astros rebuild ever look this uncertain? Just curious.

[Buehrle>Wood]

2 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Then what are you expecting exactly? If there is no reason to listen to the leader of our team, why not just go follow a different one? I can understand being skeptical because of how this team performed when they were "supposed" to win, but with the kinds of trades Hahn pulled off a couple off-season ago, I would imagine that gives him some credence. At least the team acknowledged what they were doing before, filling in gaps with free agents, wasn't working. 

You can listen to him. Its just dumb to listen to him about expectations since he was never going to say anything else.

[Ducksnort]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You know the answer to that. You look at age , defense  and offense in minor leagues and in the show. So what if you lose a DH ( Davidson) there are tons of those available . If Delmonico cant play better D  he is also a DH. Engel is also getting to the age  where results matter. I want these guys to become stars too but odds are they won't and won't even be starters for many, if any, major league teams. You scout them , you know their age and history and you come to a conclusion. It isn't hard and you play the odds.

Just saying the way I suggested is just an alternative reality. No way of knowing how this all plays out. But if it plays out the way I'm hoping it doesn't ,with the Sox not signing any major FA's, I will be disappointed and look to the 2017-18  offseason and 2018 season as the main culprits. If the Sox can still win a Championship without big name free agents then I will be extremely impressed and will have worried about all this for nothing .

Maybe I am looking too much into what Hahn is saying, but I do remember him saying when the time comes to spend money, they will have it. I mean, you could even argue they have started the process already with the Robert signing, although I guess that is different because he isn't proven yet to be a quality major league talent.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Scoots

[TaylorStSox]

6 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Did the Astros rebuild ever look this uncertain? Just curious.

Probably the years they won 55, 56, 51 and 70 games. 

[Ducksnort]

6 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Did the Astros rebuild ever look this uncertain? Just curious.

Here is their record starting from 2012-2017. Keep in mind this is 6 years of rebuilding (arguably 5 if you don't count last year)

Year 1: 55-107 (NL Central)

Year 2: 51-111 (AL West)

Year 3: 70-92 

Year 4: 86-76 (won wild card)

Year 5: 84-78

Year 6: 101-61 (Won WS) 

And the Sox are in year two of the rebuild. If you want to compare rebuilds...that was the Astro's worst year record-wise.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Maybe I am looking too much into what Hahn is saying, but I do remember him saying when the time comes to spend money, they will have it. I mean, you could even argue they have started the process already with the Robert signing, although I guess that is different because he isn't proven yet to be a quality major league talent.

I know they will have the money but the question remains will the free agents we want and need take it ? I remain skeptical if the Sox patience with sacrificing winning for development of sketchy talent doen't reap some dividends.

[Dick Allen]

With Gonzalez, Shields, and Fulmer in the rotation, and the crap they have coming out of the bullpen, this team is going to be bad. I don’t agree with it’s going to get worse, because it really can’t be worse than the last 14 games. 

get better. The question is how much?  It is hard to watch them play now. Kopech will be up fairly soon. Then Rodon later.  But other than that, help isn’t really on the way. I thought with all the awful teams and 2 of them being in the same division, wins would be a bit easier than usual. But this team is bad. And it isn’t just bad talent. Stupid baseball. Renteria talks about winning and losing the right way. If he thinks all the little league mistakes they make are losing the right way, I am not so sure this rebuild will be a guaranteed success. With all the teams who have done it, plus all the teams who will always have a shot because of money, there aren’t enough good players around for every rebuild to be a smashing success. Hopefully because of the head start their best players on cheap contracts gave them, this will work. If the Sox were in some other teams shoes, and didn’t have the bounties for Sale and Eaton and Q, I couldn’t imagine how long this would take.

[Dick Allen]

White Sox starters are 1-9 with a 5.99 ERA.

 

Think how bad it would be without Lopez.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

White Sox starters are 1-9 with a 5.99 ERA.

 

Think how bad it would be without Lopez.

And last time I checked the Sox hitters were worst in baseball at hitting with RISP. That was before the 11 run game but still have to be way way down there.