What Can Be Done to Fix this Mess?

[Chicago White Sox]

So let me start off by sharing a few facts:

• 4–13 on the season (3rd worst in MLB)
• 1-9 in their last 10 / have lost 6 straight
• Outscored 60 to 15 in their last 5 games
• 2nd to last in run differential (-50)
• Most runs allowed per game (6.65)
• Bottom 2 in starters ERA, FIP, & xFIP
• Worst in starters K/9 & BB/9 (5.85 vs 5.95)
• Starters averaging under 5 IP per start
• Starters have combined for 0.0 WAR
• 5th worse in relievers BB/9 (4.83)
• 4th best in relievers K/9 (10.43)
• Offense is 19th overall in wRC+ (94)
• 4th worse in K % (26.1 %)
• 17th in BB rate (8.9%) & 15th in ISO (.156)
• Averaging 2.45 runs over last 11 games
• Two negative WAR players (Avi -0.6, Engel -0.5)

Couldn’t find good stats to highlight how the base running & fielding has been.  I would say that Anderson & Moncada have been awesome on the bases, while the rest of the team has been passable at best.  Defensively the team has been a mess despite what the stats might say.  The team has played very sloppy baseball through 17 games.

So given this information, what can be done to improve this team in the short run?  I’m sure we all expected the team to be bad, but the way things are going right now are far beyond my wildest expectations.  These losses are becoming demoralizing and it’s going to have an impact on our players confidence and/or efforts.  While there are no perfect solutions here, some changes are desperately needed to allow our players to feel they have at least some chance of winning on a given day.

[pcq]

I guess rebuilding means 3-4 hits for the offense and 8-10 runs allowed amid general malaise and lack of inspiration. These Sox don't look prepared to compete at any professional level. No one is minding the store. Rick or Rick what's up? 

[Panerista]

I'm going to be that guy: It doesn't matter.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  

[Panerista]

1 minute ago, pcq said:

I guess rebuilding means 3-4 hits for the offense and 8-10 runs allowed amid general malaise and lack of inspiration. These Sox don't look prepared to compete at any professional level. No one is minding the store. Rick or Rick what's up? 

This statement is completely missing the big picture.

Until the MLB sets more regulations, it's in the best interest of teams that aren't going to win the World Series to tank.  The Sox are doing the right thing.

[Dick Allen]

Short term there really is nothing other than waiting  for Kopech and Rodon. I do wonder what kind of effect getting killed every night will have on some players, but realistically there aren’t many of them on the roster that will be on the roster when winning is expected. 

We just have to hope guys like Giolito develop and are far better than they have shown. I will give him a pass for last night. I think he had become pretty close with Farquhar, so his concentration level might not have been the best. But he is walking a lot and not striking anyone out. That has to be at least a little concerning. 

But this stretch sucks for so many reasons. You wait 6 months for baseball season, and it becomes an uninteresting train wreck almost immediately. Some surprising performances in spring training but wins the first 2 games and a 3-2 first road trip made it seem like this could be a fun season. Now the games are over before they are official.

pitching will get better because it has to. No team’s pitching is this bad. I just hope they clean up the other constant gaffes, like bad baserunning, missing cutoff men, throwing to wrong bases, etc. at least make it a watchable product.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Agreed with DA, nothing you can do right now is wait for some sort of progression by this team, because it is hard to believe they are THIS bad

[Chicago White Sox]

To share some of my own thoughts here, it’s obvious the starting pitching is the largest problem.  Outside of Reyaldo, the rotation has been an absolute disaster.  MiGo looks pretty much cooked and probably needs to the be the first guy to go.  I think we’d be smart to flip flop roles with him & Santiago.  I’m not sure MiGo is destined to last long with this team, but I’d retain him as a long reliever in the short-run.

The next change is much harder for me to propose, but I think it necessary.  I think Giolito needs to be sent down to Charlotte to clear his head.  The kid is a very cerebral pitcher and I worry him working through his mechanical issues while dealing with the stressors of major league hitters is not the best way to right the ship.  I get the working with Cooper arguments, but last night’s outing is not going to help his fragile mental state nor boon his confidence heading into his next start.  In the interim I’d probably give Volstad these starts as there doesn’t seem a better option here unfortunately.

This would result in a rotation of Lopez, Shields, Santiago, Volstad, & Fulmer.  That’s still beyond ugly but would hopefully be an upgrade or at the very least more stable.

Other changes are much more straight forward.  First, get Engel out of the lineup ASAP and give Thompson an extended look in CF.  Second, move Avi down in the lineup.  He is absolutely killing us right now batting in the two-hole.  I’d put Sanchez there against RHP & Anderson there against LHP.  For now, that’s all you can really do on the offensive side IMO.

[Panerista]

The pitching is really bad, but I can't imagine this team wins less than 60.  "on pace" or not, the Sox will go on a run of some sort.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

I'm going to be that guy: It doesn't matter.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  

What doesn’t matter?

[Panerista]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Other changes are much more straight forward.  First, get Engel out of the lineup ASAP and give Thompson an extended look in CF.  Second, move Avi down in the lineup.  He is absolutely killing us right now batting in the two-hole.  I’d put Sanchez there against RHP & Anderson there against LHP.  For now, that’s all you can really do on the offensive side IMO.

Agreed on Thompson 100%.  We all saw him as a utility outfielder when he was here last.  It looks like he still could be. 

[Panerista]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

What doesn’t matter?

Improving the short term team.  

[daggins]

Yeah basically the record means nothing. The sloppy play isn't good, but we can't know what steps are being taken to address this behind the scenes. The team will probably cycle through some peripheral guys (pen and bench depth) to try and keep fresh while the regulars struggle. My biggest concern right now is the effects of 4/5 of the rotation being unable to go more than 4 innings.

[Panerista]

Just now, daggins said:

Yeah basically the record means nothing. The sloppy play isn't good, but we can't know what steps are being taken to address this behind the scenes. The team will probably cycle through some peripheral guys (pen and bench depth) to try and keep fresh while the regulars struggle. My biggest concern right now is the effects of 4/5 of the rotation being unable to go more than 4 innings.

My biggest concern is the potential of blowing draft picks.  If my life were dependent on this rebuild, drafting would be what keeps me up at night.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Improving the short term team.  

I have to disagree here.  Losing itself isn’t the problem, it’s the way we are losing that’s the problem.  Our starters have been an absolute disaster and this is an area that is effecting the rest of the team.  First, it’s putting a significant strain on the bullpen.  I get we have two long relievers now, but a guy like Rodon had to pitch 3 innings the other day.  And this is after he pitched the day before.  A lot of our relievers are being forced to pitch on back to back days more than you’d ideally like IMO.  This rate of usage can not last over a full season or it will have consequences.

The other part here is how these types of blowouts impact the morale & confidence of our positional players.  Playing from behind eight runs on a regular basis is not fun and causes guys to press and/or lose focus.  We’ve already seen plenty of sloppiness and it’s only going to continue.  It’s really hard to avoid that trap when you have to nothing to play for on a nightly basis.  And I really don’t want key future pieces in Moncada & Anderson up there feeling like they have to force something and changing their plan or approach.  Players do stupid things when they start pressing and that’s not in the best long-term interests of their development.  

[daggins]

1 minute ago, AustinIllini said:

My biggest concern is the potential of blowing draft picks.  If my life were dependent on this rebuild, drafting would be what keeps me up at night.

Good thing you aren't Hostetler then.

[WBWSF]

I keep hearing that losing/development is part of the process. For this rebuild/tanking to work both Fulmer and Giolito  have to be good. So far they have not been good. If they keep this up in the month of May wouldn't it be better for everybody concerned if they both went back down to the minor leagues? I was at the game last night and it was another depressing performance by Giolito. Most of the 24,000 in attendance left the stadium after the 5th inning.

[Kyyle23]

11 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I keep hearing that losing/development is part of the process. For this rebuild/tanking to work both Fulmer and Giolito  have to be good. So far they have not been good. If they keep this up in the month of May wouldn't it be better for everybody concerned if they both went back down to the minor leagues? I was at the game last night and it was another depressing performance by Giolito. Most of the 24,000 in attendance left the stadium after the 5th inning.

The rebuild doesn’t hinge on Giolito and Fulmer being good.  If they are good they will accelerate the rebuild, but if they are bad they will not ruin it.  The rebuild depends on some players in a large pool of good prospects coming out and becoming major league contributors.  If you would stop your JR/payroll handwringing for a minute you would understand this

 

[Dick Allen]

Tanking in baseball isn’t like tanking in the NBA. The advantages to being bad are the high pick, and the ability to play guys who normally wouldn’t have a shot if winning was of the essence and might be able to find another player or 2 that way.

 

if the White Sox could get only the type of return Stanton got the Marlins, trading Sale, Eaton and Q would have made no sense. All the losing gets you is the first pick. Assuming you don’t sign someone that costs you a draft pick, once that top pick is taken and his money accounted for, teams at the bottom of the draft are sitting a bit prettier. Tanking basically gets you that top pick which rarely makes an immediate impact. If the White Sox were picking in the 20s every player the last few years they drafted, would have been available except Fulmer and Burger and Collins. I am not giving up on any of these guys. But  the prizefor tanking isn’t as great as in the NBA. Just thank God Hahn signed his best players to team friendly contracts . If not, if you thought this was bad.....

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So let me start off by sharing a few facts:

• 4–13 on the season (3rd worst in MLB)
• 1-9 in their last 10 / have lost 6 straight
• Outscored 60 to 15 in their last 5 games
• 2nd to last in run differential (-50)
• Most runs allowed per game (6.65)
• Bottom 2 in starters ERA, FIP, & xFIP
• Worst in starters K/9 & BB/9 (5.85 vs 5.95)
• Starters averaging under 5 IP per start
• Starters have combined for 0.0 WAR
• 5th worse in relievers BB/9 (4.83)
• 4th best in relievers K/9 (10.43)
• Offense is 19th overall in wRC+ (94)
• 4th worse in K % (26.1 %)
• 17th in BB rate (8.9%) & 15th in ISO (.156)
• Averaging 2.45 runs over last 11 games
• Two negative WAR players (Avi -0.6, Engel -0.5)

Couldn’t find good stats to highlight how the base running & fielding has been.  I would say that Anderson & Moncada have been awesome on the bases, while the rest of the team has been passable at best.  Defensively the team has been a mess despite what the stats might say.  The team has played very sloppy baseball through 17 games.

So given this information, what can be done to improve this team in the short run?  I’m sure we all expected the team to be bad, but the way things are going right now are far beyond my wildest expectations.  These losses are becoming demoralizing and it’s going to have an impact on our players confidence and/or efforts.  While there are no perfect solutions here, some changes are desperately needed to allow our players to feel they have at least some chance of winning on a given day.

I was told “honestly, take the year off” last night in the GT, so I guess while it’s beyond both of our wildest expectations, everyone else here assumed they’d be this s***ty, so it’s our fault for not being mentally prepared to lose 13 out of every 15 games

Edited April 22, 2018 by soxfan49

[Jerksticks]

Yes welcome to the reds and the next ten years of royals baseball

[caulfield12]

Mostly deck chairs on the Titanic.

Maybe J. Gomez instead of Infante...but they went with Infante twice now.

I think Giolito and Fulmer both get at least 3-5 more starts before getting sent down unless they continue to absolutely get blasted like last night.  Fulmer might as well go right into the pen this year if they pull the plug on him starting.

Santiago gets first shot at starting, then Volstad.

Start Thompson pretty much every day and send Engel down.  Cordell’s injury limits options here, and Charlotte is filled with corner of/1B/DH guys, unfortunately.  Leury going back to starting everyday in CF feels unlikely with no backup infielder now that Saladino’s gone.  Not close to ready (yet) to see 300+ Skole or Palka at-bats in RF.

Not sure what to do with Avi besides moving him down in the lineup.  Theoretically, he was supposed to get more fastballs with Moncada (and now Anderson) getting on base in front of him.

We still have to let Delmonico play mearly every day to see how well he can hit lefties and if his defense shows any signs of improvement.

Bringing Kopech up before he’s 100% ready to hit the ground running makes absolutely no sense and will only lead to more fan frustration if he gets hit around instead of dominating from the getgo. 

[WBWSF]

19 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

The rebuild doesn’t hinge on Giolito and Fulmer being good.  If they are good they will accelerate the rebuild, but if they are bad they will not ruin it.  The rebuild depends on some players in a large pool of good prospects coming out and becoming major league contributors.  If you would stop your JR/payroll handwringing for a minute you would understand this I didn't say one word about JR/payroll handwringing. I  said it might be better if both Fulmer and Giolito were sent down to the minors.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

As Aaron Burr said, "Wait for it". 

Quite literally, the day to day results are like points on Whose Line is it Anyway.  They don't matter.  What this team does, doesn't matter.  Win, lose, or draw, the important thing is the ABs and IPs that these guys are getting.  Get these kids their lumps, let them learn on the job, and quit panicking.  People did such a good job of not caring about bad baseball last year, they should really think of this year, and probably next in the same way.  Quit looking at the Top 10 lists and thinking it means some sort of instant success.  As was outlined the other day the Astros took 6 years to do this.  The Cubs with tons of luck, half a billion dollars in free agents, and a huge fan base to support, it took 5.  How did people think we would be competitive again in about a year after starting and why?

Even if you look on the field, barely the tip of the iceberg is still in the minors.  Realistically only 3 of "The Guys" are even in Chicago at this point.  The big thrust of guys is still in Charlotte and Birmingham.  This is still a process.  Go back to last years mentality of losing isn't a bad thing.

And yes, it will be better.  These kids will start to play better as a group.  It's only a matter of time.

 

[iWiN4PreP]

It's quite simple...

 

Most of the fault is on the pitching staff. Can you really expect to win when you have Shields/Fulmer/Miguel Gonzalez starting games and then having a RP core like we have? No. Add in the fact that Giol is doing terrible and you aren't winning games.

 

The hitting hasn't been good either, but it's been passable for what our expectations have been. 

 

Just get over it, it's a rebuild and it's been freezing most of our games. Wait for the summer to kick in. 

[daggins]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

As Aaron Burr said, "Wait for it". 

Quite literally, the day to day results are like points on Whose Line is it Anyway.  They don't matter.  What this team does, doesn't matter.  Win, lose, or draw, the important thing is the ABs and IPs that these guys are getting.  Get these kids their lumps, let them learn on the job, and quit panicking.  People did such a good job of not caring about bad baseball last year, they should really think of this year, and probably next in the same way.  Quit looking at the Top 10 lists and thinking it means some sort of instant success.  As was outlined the other day the Astros took 6 years to do this.  The Cubs with tons of luck, half a billion dollars in free agents, and a huge fan base to support, it took 5.  How did people think we would be competitive again in about a year after starting and why?

Even if you look on the field, barely the tip of the iceberg is still in the minors.  Realistically only 3 of "The Guys" are even in Chicago at this point.  The big thrust of guys is still in Charlotte and Birmingham.  This is still a process.  Go back to last years mentality of losing isn't a bad thing.

And yes, it will be better.  These kids will start to play better as a group.  It's only a matter of time.

 

I agree that it will get better. This part of the process is like a pointillist painting - get too close, focus on the details of every game, and it looks like an unfixable mess.

 

I would say that the only player in Charlotte of consequence is Kopech. Most of the "guys" are in W-S or on the DL.