What Can Be Done to Fix this Mess?

[Greg Hibbard]

Maybe we all need to keep in mind that the White Sox are a bad team but also that the Astros are really really good.

[kapkomet]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Tanking in baseball isn’t like tanking in the NBA. The advantages to being bad are the high pick, and the ability to play guys who normally wouldn’t have a shot if winning was of the essence and might be able to find another player or 2 that way.

 

if the White Sox could get only the type of return Stanton got the Marlins, trading Sale, Eaton and Q would have made no sense. All the losing gets you is the first pick. Assuming you don’t sign someone that costs you a draft pick, once that top pick is taken and his money accounted for, teams at the bottom of the draft are sitting a bit prettier. Tanking basically gets you that top pick which rarely makes an immediate impact. If the White Sox were picking in the 20s every player the last few years they drafted, would have been available except Fulmer and Burger and Collins. I am not giving up on any of these guys. But  the prizefor tanking isn’t as great as in the NBA. Just thank God Hahn signed his best players to team friendly contracts . If not, if you thought this was bad.....

Agreed - see Texas Rangers.

[Chicago White Sox]

58 minutes ago, Tony said:

The answer is simply time. Have to wait it out. It’s that simple. The basic argument of this thread is “I can’t believe they are this bad, I don’t like watching it, how can they find ways to maybe get them closer to a .500 team, but still bad.” That really doesn’t help anyone but the short-term fan. 

I also don’t really buy the “losing leads to pressing, a bad environment, etc.” These guys are professionals, and also understand why/how this team was built. Go out and perform, if anything they should be playing in a pressure free environment. 

As others have said, things will get better this season. The team simply isn’t going to have a 6 ERA all year, I just can’t believe that. But this is a very bad team, and it was by design. We just have to hope and pray the young guys continue to develop. 

Well that’s not the argument of this thread in the slightest.  I fully expected this team to be bad and have been one of the most vocal supporters of giving our young players the time needed to develop (see my many responses on Moncada).  But there is bad and there is getting absolutely destroyed on a daily basis.  Losing like this is not part of the process and does not provide any positive benefit whatsoever.  We can continue pretending these guys are robots, but it’s only human nature to be affected by this type of losing.  Guys will most definitely start pressing & start to lose focus.  We’re already starting to see that and it will only get worse if this type of losing continues.

And when I suggest to “fix this mess”, it’s not about trying to get to .500 and it certaintly isn’t meant to add wins at the expense of development.  It’s not even about making this product more watchable for the fans.  It’s simply about making these guys feel like they have some sort of chance to win on a daily basis.  Ultimately talent plays out and this team will be bad no matter what we do, but if possible let’s have them lose more games 3-5 & 4-6 then these 1-10 blowouts we’ve seeing lately.

[Sarava]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Well that’s not the argument of this thread in the slightest.  I fully expected this team to be bad and have been one of the most vocal supporters of giving our young players the time needed to develop (see my many responses on Moncada).  But there is bad and there is getting absolutely destroyed on a daily basis.  Losing like this is not part of the process and does not provide any positive benefit whatsoever.  We can continue pretending these guys are robots, but it’s only human nature to be affected by this type of losing.  Guys will most definitely start pressing & start to lose focus.  We’re already starting to see that and it will only get worse if this type of losing continues.

And when I suggest to “fix this mess”, it’s not about trying to get to .500 and it certaintly isn’t meant to add wins at the expense of development.  It’s not even about making this product more watchable for the fans.  It’s simply about making these guys feel like they have some sort of chance to win on a daily basis.  Ultimately talent plays out and this team will be bad no matter what we do, but if possible let’s have them lose more games 3-5 & 4-6 then these 1-10 blowouts we’ve seeing lately.

Well said.

[Chicago White Sox]

34 minutes ago, Tony said:

So you’re asking them to “lose better?” 

No, I’m asking them to make small improvements to avoid nightly blowouts, put less strain on a fairly taxed bullpen, and better the team’s morale.  The talent level will prevent this team from ever being remotely good, but that doesn’t mean we should accept being this bad.  For example, cutting bait on a MiGo who topped out at like 89 in his last start and looks to be done seems like an easy to way to improve the team without affecting anyone’s development.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

The answer is simply time. Have to wait it out. It’s that simple. The basic argument of this thread is “I can’t believe they are this bad, I don’t like watching it, how can they find ways to maybe get them closer to a .500 team, but still bad.” That really doesn’t help anyone but the short-term fan. 

I also don’t really buy the “losing leads to pressing, a bad environment, etc.” These guys are professionals, and also understand why/how this team was built. Go out and perform, if anything they should be playing in a pressure free environment. 

As others have said, things will get better this season. The team simply isn’t going to have a 6 ERA all year, I just can’t believe that. But this is a very bad team, and it was by design. We just have to hope and pray the young guys continue to develop. 

The rebuild has apparently turned Soxtalk into Kenny Williams fans.

[TaylorStSox]

Like others have said, it doesn't matter. I have no expectations for anything this season. I'm just watching at bat's and hoping guys improve. The scoreboard is meaningless for me. 

[pcq]

4 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

Improving the short term team.  

I think there are two issues. Rebuild does not explain the widespread underachieving and lack of focus. These guys have a ceiling but they are not getting paid to tank. Fans understand that most of the good talent we are waiting on is developing in A ball. 

[greg775]

4 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

I'm going to be that guy: It doesn't matter.  Sorry, it just doesn't.  

You fans of the rebuild slay me. You give the GM such a break. You know how easy it is to tank/rebuild? You trade the only non-young "stars" you have (take your time and get the best haul possible),  then suck as badly as you can for years. If you continue to suck you just say the rebuild is still going on. This is no way to run a sports franchise. Be as bad as you can be as you spend no money and wait for the draft(s). I'm telling you, this board could run a successful rebuild. Meanwhile the value of the franchise somehow keeps going up. Hahn gets pats on the back from everybody: the owner (can you imagine the profits with this payroll so low for years?), the partners, the fans and meanwhile the team is playing historically bad ball. WOW. Hahn has such a great life. The challenge is to win consistently without sucking for 10 or more years. Any one of us could take the best available prospect in the draft this June. Any one of us could have traded Sale and Q for hauls and made those other smaller trades. Hail to Hahn and all GMs for selling this tank stuff to owners/fans.

[greg775]

3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Like others have said, it doesn't matter. I have no expectations for anything this season. I'm just watching at bat's and hoping guys improve. The scoreboard is meaningless for me. 

One casualty of the rebuild is obviously Avi (unless his total regression is all about BABIP and Ricky's odd decision to bat him second). Avi obviously is giving away almost all his at bats with his new, horrendous, never draw a walk approach. Avi appears done and you can't tell me it's not partly because of how bad the team is and the resulting lack of focus.

[ron883]

Lose as long as it takes to stack up the talent. I'd rather have awful years then great years to come instead of a constant treadmill fringe playoff team. Lose, baby, lose. 2020 Will be sweet. 

[ron883]

6 minutes ago, greg775 said:

One casualty of the rebuild is obviously Avi (unless his total regression is all about BABIP and Ricky's odd decision to bat him second). Avi obviously is giving away almost all his at bats with his new, horrendous, never draw a walk approach. Avi appears done and you can't tell me it's not partly because of how bad the team is and the resulting lack of focus.

If he is that weak minded of a person, I don't want him on the team when they are competitive. He'll crumble when they are in the playoffs

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, greg775 said:

You fans of the rebuild slay me. You give the GM such a break. You know how easy it is to tank/rebuild? You trade the only non-young "stars" you have (take your time and get the best haul possible),  then suck as badly as you can for years. If you continue to suck you just say the rebuild is still going on. This is no way to run a sports franchise. Be as bad as you can be as you spend no money and wait for the draft(s). I'm telling you, this board could run a successful rebuild. Meanwhile the value of the franchise somehow keeps going up. Hahn gets pats on the back from everybody: the owner (can you imagine the profits with this payroll so low for years?), the partners, the fans and meanwhile the team is playing historically bad ball. WOW. Hahn has such a great life. The challenge is to win consistently without sucking for 10 or more years. Any one of us could take the best available prospect in the draft this June. Any one of us could have traded Sale and Q for hauls and made those other smaller trades. Hail to Hahn and all GMs for selling this tank stuff to owners/fans.

greg, 420 is over.

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

... Any one of us could have traded Sale and Q for hauls and made those other smaller trades. Hail to Hahn and all GMs for selling this tank stuff to owners/fans.

Yea, sure... but could any of us have signed Q as a minor league free agent or sign Sale as the 13th pick?

[beautox]

In the short term nothing. Outside of Anderson and Moncada developing to all star level players hopefully Yolmer can be a solid regular and one of Delmonico or Davidson solve a problem at 1B/DH. The rotation and pen will shake it self out in time. Likely Gio and Fulmer wind up in the back end of the pen as Kopech, Hansen, Cease and Dunning make their way to Chicago.

[Bananarchy]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

One casualty of the rebuild is obviously Avi (unless his total regression is all about BABIP and Ricky's odd decision to bat him second). Avi obviously is giving away almost all his at bats with his new, horrendous, never draw a walk approach. Avi appears done and you can't tell me it's not partly because of how bad the team is and the resulting lack of focus.

We were rebuilding last year and Avi was great. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is exactly the way Hahn wanted things to go. There were free agent bargains galore out there to improve the team cheaply without it hurting the rebuild too much but Castillo and Gonzalez were the only ones signed and the rest were signed to minor league deals. They obviously want another year or maybe even 2 years of high draft pick in deep draft classes. Most think this is the right way to go.

I think its the obvious path but when opportunities present themselves like all the cheap free agents I think it would ve been OK to take a little detour to attempt to make the team more attractive to the big name free agents. The White Sox aren't exactly a high end destination for free agents , They are the Padres of the AL without having the Southern California weather to attract players. They barely exist in many fans and players minds.

I know signing some free agents this off season would hurt draft status and that wasn't going to happen just as signing Moustakas would ' ve meant losing a pick. The Sox want to rid themselves of the dead weight in the minors and stock it with real talent from the lowest levels to the top.

Of course the main problem with that plan is we are still uncertain that the Sox have any idea what real talent looks like or how to develop it. Despite all the hoopla surrounding Hostetler  we are still in wait and see mode with how his picks turn out and so far its not looking good mostly due to injuries but not entirely. Also need to see more results from international signings but that doesn't seem to be  priority in managements mind. If the Sox have trouble identifying talent over 18 years old how can  they do with those under 18 ?

Right now we can only hope things don't spiral out of control.

[TaylorStSox]

2 hours ago, beautox said:

In the short term nothing. Outside of Anderson and Moncada developing to all star level players hopefully Yolmer can be a solid regular and one of Delmonico or Davidson solve a problem at 1B/DH. The rotation and pen will shake it self out in time. Likely Gio and Fulmer wind up in the back end of the pen as Kopech, Hansen, Cease and Dunning make their way to Chicago.

Gio in the backend of the pen? My lord. 

[FloydBannister1983]

4 hours ago, ron883 said:

If he is that weak minded of a person, I don't want him on the team when they are competitive. He'll crumble when they are in the playoffs

That's what worries me about the guy who was crying after the manager pulled him for not hustling.

I'm also worried what will happen to the shortstop if somebody close to him passes away if they become good again. We already saw his horrific 2017 season explained away by a death to a loved one.

Seems that this team is full of weak minded players.

 

[FloydBannister1983]

4 hours ago, ron883 said:

Lose as long as it takes to stack up the talent. I'd rather have awful years then great years to come instead of a constant treadmill fringe playoff team. Lose, baby, lose. 2020 Will be sweet. 

I wonder how many casual fans they will lose with all this losing.

Do you think the Yankees will be firing Stanton and Judge and the rest of the team in 2020?

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

19 minutes ago, Juschill said:

That's what worries me about the guy who was crying after the manager pulled him for not hustling.

I'm also worried what will happen to the shortstop if somebody close to him passes away if they become good again. We already saw his horrific 2017 season explained away by a death to a loved one.

Seems that this team is full of weak minded players.

 

This is just a horrible take.  Tim Anderson is weak minded cause a brother like figure was the victim of a senseless crime and lost his life?  You must not have anyone you care for in this world, because losing a loved one to a tragedy will fuck most people up.  There is nothing weak minded about that.

[Chicago White Sox]

And I could be wrong, but I don’t think Moncada was actually crying.  I think he was simply pissed off and the “crying” claim was typical Gamethread BS.

[Boopa1219]

Embrace the suck

[FloydBannister1983]

14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is just a horrible take.  Tim Anderson is weak minded cause a brother like figure was the victim of a senseless crime and lost his life?  You must not have anyone you care for in this world, because losing a loved one to a tragedy will fuck most people up.  There is nothing weak minded about that.

That's the excuse provided for him having a horrible 2017 season.  I didn't provide the excuse for the terrible season.  I assumed it was because he wasn't very good.

[southsider2k5]

31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is just a horrible take.  Tim Anderson is weak minded cause a brother like figure was the victim of a senseless crime and lost his life?  You must not have anyone you care for in this world, because losing a loved one to a tragedy will fuck most people up.  There is nothing weak minded about that.

There is nothing worse than an armchair fan who looks down on athletes for being human. Tim Anderson's young best friend was murdered completely by surprise.  I don't know many people who could easily deal with that, let alone be able to do a really tough job in public. Any who tells me otherwise is full of it.