What Can Be Done to Fix this Mess?

[WBWSF]

4 hours ago, greg775 said:

You fans of the rebuild slay me. You give the GM such a break. You know how easy it is to tank/rebuild? You trade the only non-young "stars" you have (take your time and get the best haul possible),  then suck as badly as you can for years. If you continue to suck you just say the rebuild is still going on. This is no way to run a sports franchise. Be as bad as you can be as you spend no money and wait for the draft(s). I'm telling you, this board could run a successful rebuild. Meanwhile the value of the franchise somehow keeps going up. Hahn gets pats on the back from everybody: the owner (can you imagine the profits with this payroll so low for years?), the partners, the fans and meanwhile the team is playing historically bad ball. WOW. Hahn has such a great life. The challenge is to win consistently without sucking for 10 or more years. Any one of us could take the best available prospect in the draft this June. Any one of us could have traded Sale and Q for hauls and made those other smaller trades. Hail to Hahn and all GMs for selling this tank stuff to owners/fans.

greg775; I agree with your thoughts. From what I can tell, we are in the minority amongst White Sox fans. This lovefest White Sox fans have for Hahn and this rebuild/tanking baffles me. This team is bad, maybe even historically bad and people seem to be buying into this. Bruce Levine has said numerous times that the only thing JR cares about more than the White Sox is his family. That has to be BS because if he cared that much about this team this team wouldn't be this bad.

[caulfield12]

Greg/WBWSF, this is the equivalent of an “intervention” for a family member with an addiction.

A rebuild is tearing apart something you love to make it better or stronger.  Any other approach was enabling.

Or, if a failure, selling the team and giving someone else a shot.

Edited April 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[WBWSF]

caulfield12; When JR bought the team from Bill Veeck, White Sox fans were overjoyed. The new owners were welcomed by virtually every White Sox fan. They actually had walkup crowds of 20,000 fans for some games. The Baseball strike of 1981 prevented the White Sox from drawing over 2 million fans for the first time. Here it is in the year 2018, JR is still owns the team and the entire team is a train wreck. Sometime, somewhere, someday, (hopefully soon) JR will sell the team and believe me no tears will be shed by White Sox fans when JR is no longer the owner. This team is bad and I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel as long as JR owns the team. I knew this was going to be a bad team this year but I didn't think it would be this bad. I wish he would sell the team and give somebody else a shot at running this franchise.

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is nothing worse than an armchair fan who looks down on athletes for being human. Tim Anderson's young best friend was murdered completely by surprise.  I don't know many people who could easily deal with that, let alone be able to do a really tough job in public. Any who tells me otherwise is full of it.

Didn't John Lester pitch a shutout on the day his uncle died?  And there were at least two gold medalists in the Pyeongchang Olympics that dedicated their medal to their recently deceased parents no less.  Those are some tough minded athletes.

 

[soxfan49]

32 minutes ago, Juschill said:

Didn't John Lester pitch a shutout on the day his uncle died?  And there were at least two gold medalists in the Pyeongchang Olympics that dedicated their medal to their recently deceased parents no less.  Those are some tough minded athletes.

 

That settles it then. If Lester and the paralyzed olympians can do it and Anderson can’t, that makes Anderson a huge p***y. Your posts are inspiring, dude.

[Sleepy Harold]

17 hours ago, Juschill said:

Didn't John Lester pitch a shutout on the day his uncle died?  And there were at least two gold medalists in the Pyeongchang Olympics that dedicated their medal to their recently deceased parents no less.  Those are some tough minded athletes.

 

You are aware that in fact not everyone is A) the same emotionally and B) handles grief differently?  This hill you're choosing to die on here is very telling. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Sleepy Harold

[greg775]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is nothing worse than an armchair fan who looks down on athletes for being human. Tim Anderson's young best friend was murdered completely by surprise.  I don't know many people who could easily deal with that, let alone be able to do a really tough job in public. Any who tells me otherwise is full of it.

Tim deserves credit for playing through the sorrow he truly does. Now, a year later it can't be talked about any more. Life has to go on. I mean right now it's just a non-factor in his life. I mean we all lose people and a year later after the natural mourning period, you must move on or something seriously is wrong with Tim and he'll need serious professional help if he's still in deep mourning. I'm not trying to be insensitive. I felt for him as I did the Royals for losing Y. Ventura. Most of the Royals who had bad seasons revealed it indeed was because they were mourning a true friend and teammate. Best wishes to all, but again, if a year later you are still in mourning, please get serious professional help so you can get on with life.

[wrathofhahn]

Nothing continue to rebuild.

People thinking you can build rome in a day were fools this will be a multi-year rebuild last year was year one we'll see where things are at in 2020.

The only thing that kind of sucks is none of the vet guys have any value right now. Abreu and both Garcias should be moved.

[southsider2k5]

32 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Tim deserves credit for playing through the sorrow he truly does. Now, a year later it can't be talked about any more. Life has to go on. I mean right now it's just a non-factor in his life. I mean we all lose people and a year later after the natural mourning period, you must move on or something seriously is wrong with Tim and he'll need serious professional help if he's still in deep mourning. I'm not trying to be insensitive. I felt for him as I did the Royals for losing Y. Ventura. Most of the Royals who had bad seasons revealed it indeed was because they were mourning a true friend and teammate. Best wishes to all, but again, if a year later you are still in mourning, please get serious professional help so you can get on with life.

Get over yourself. There is no expiration date on mourning and sorrow. No one gets to dictate to another human being how they should feel.  There is a need here for professional help, but the problem isn't Anderson. The problem is people who think they own athletes and that they exist solely for their entertainment. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Juschill said:

Didn't John Lester pitch a shutout on the day his uncle died?  And there were at least two gold medalists in the Pyeongchang Olympics that dedicated their medal to their recently deceased parents no less.  Those are some tough minded athletes.

 

This is just disgusting. 

[soxfan49]

53 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Tim deserves credit for playing through the sorrow he truly does. Now, a year later it can't be talked about any more. Life has to go on. I mean right now it's just a non-factor in his life. I mean we all lose people and a year later after the natural mourning period, you must move on or something seriously is wrong with Tim and he'll need serious professional help if he's still in deep mourning. I'm not trying to be insensitive. I felt for him as I did the Royals for losing Y. Ventura. Most of the Royals who had bad seasons revealed it indeed was because they were mourning a true friend and teammate. Best wishes to all, but again, if a year later you are still in mourning, please get serious professional help so you can get on with life.

My dad died last June and it was unexpected. Not only was he my dad but my best friend. I miss him everyday, and occasionally, it’s hard to have “good” days at work because I’m thinking about him and mourning him. Should I get help too? This is one of your worst posts, and that’s saying something.

[soxfan49]

Also, why the f*** are we even discussing Anderson? His OPS is 50 points better than last year & he’s going to steal at least 35 bases. STFU already.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, soxfan49 said:

My dad died last June and it was unexpected. Not only was he my dad but my best friend. I miss him everyday, and occasionally, it’s hard to have “good” days at work because I’m thinking about him and mourning him. Should I get help too? This is one of your worst posts, and that’s saying something.

It's not been a whole year for you yet. My sympathy to you. But if you continue to be depressed about this, it might not hurt to get some help. Also not to be insensitive to Timmy (I do feel for him and wish him recovery) but this was your dad, not just a great friend. If your grief persists it may not hurt to get some help. Best wishes to you in recovering from the loss of your dad. My dad died a couple years ago and my mom now is pretty much stuck into dementia to where she is no longer a functioning mom anymore so I understand how bad it is to have parents gone. It's weird to think without a mom and dad we truly do not have the two people who care(d) about us the most unconditionally. Best wishes to u.

Edited April 23, 2018 by greg775

[soxfan49]

5 minutes ago, greg775 said:

It's not been a whole year for you yet. My sympathy to you. But if you continue to be depressed about this, it might not hurt to get some help. Also not to be insensitive to Timmy (I do feel for him and wish him recovery) but this was your dad, not just a great friend. If your grief persists it may not hurt to get some help. Best wishes to you in recovering from the loss of your dad. My dad died a couple years ago and my mom now is pretty much stuck into dementia to where she is no longer a functioning mom anymore so I understand how bad it is to have parents gone. It's weird to think without a mom and dad we truly do not have the two people who care(d) about us the most unconditionally. Best wishes to u.

It hasn’t been a whole year for Anderson’s loss either

[greg775]

Just now, soxfan49 said:

It hasn’t been a whole year for Anderson’s loss either

I probably should shut up as I truly do wish Timmy the best. Trust me on this. I lost a best friend to murder. I lost dad and referred to mom in post above. I feel your and Timmy's pain and wish you both the best.

 I can't help but compare this to real life, however, and unless you are working at a great great great great, all-time great, place, most employers don't care about losing a friend after a year. The HR departments don't even like hearing you want to take a few days off to travel to the funeral/memorial service of your brother's wife's mother. This world is way too cold.

[FloydBannister1983]

 

11 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

That settles it then. If Lester and the paralyzed olympians can do it and Anderson can’t, that makes Anderson a huge p***y. Your posts are inspiring, dude.

It just makes them tough minded.  I'm not the one that said Anderson had a bad season due to the loss of a friend.  I don't think even Anderson said that.  I think people here made up the excuse that Anderson had a bad season due to the loss of a friend, as though they had intimate knowledge of Anderson's psyche.

 

[FT35]

I think the key is to build consistency in other ways--culture for example.  They aren't ready to compete at the MLB level because they don't have a grip on the infrastructure of things.  Competing in games in the final phase.  They need to focus not just on learning, but the learning process.  You have to stick to your guns amidst the chaos and I think if you look a little deeper, you'll see signs that we are doing just that.  Building structure is critical.  Rules.  Repitition.  Expectations.  It's the dirty work that no one wants to be a part of.  Honestly, from an instructional staff standpoint, you have to approach it like this.  Continue to give consistent, correct information whenever possible.  Constantly, vocally repeat the rules of the game and the correct ways to mentally process the game.  Reinforce everything/always.  Players will go through a pattern of receiving that information.  It will go like this "duh, I know that" to "I know" to "I know w/annoyance" to "I know w/anger" to "why on earth do they keep saying this," to "these guys are crazy for saying this over and over," to "I'm done with this!" Once that happens...true learning is near!  From there, they will entertain the instruction by focusing on it--usually first out of spite or pure entertainment value--then a positive result will come of it.  That will get everyone's attention.   Trust will build and since the process has been drilled so far into their heads, it will start to come easier and more naturally.  It will start to show up in games and then it will start to impact the outcome of games.  Once that happens it will become extremely important to everyone and they will start to make personal sacrifices in order to further the team goal, more importantly...they team "way."  They will have learned how to play and win together.  It's Pavlov's dogs.  It's in all the text books because it's an actual thing.  

Ricky is doing that now.  Defining what should be done, defining everyone's responsibility, definining the culture, defining the type of gameplay we're going for and having real, consistent positive/negative consequences for players along the way.  Benching players is important if patterns develop that go against what we are going for.  Watch "Miracle" and the way Herb Brooks teaches the kids on the Miracle on Ice team.  Early on, HE looked like the crazy one and the tendency is to side with the players.  Managerial credit is the LAST step to come around--not until the team starts to win consistently do you see the "this guy's a genius" comments start.  Until then, it's rough going...why?  Because in a complete rebuild, you don't start with how to win. You start with how to think...THEN how to play.  Right now we are somewhere in that process and everyone's solution is indictive on where they think we are or should be in that process.  Our people know where we actually are.  Rick Renteria knows where they are and what to do.  He's a professional with more experience than any of us doing this very thing.  Let him work, let him bench, let him teach, and manage.  The on-field product is horrific because they are in a state of teaching and initial learning.  Seeing them getting blown out consistently just means that the opportunity is prime for messages to sink in.  Players are more understanding to the fact that they need to listen closer.  Managerial messaging should be "I will continue to show confidence in you as long as you are playing the right way...if you are not playing the right way, I will take you out of the lineup and help you by having you work with our instructional staff until you get back on track--then you will be back in the lineup."   Mistakes don't get you out of the lineup--but poor effort will.  

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, homievisual said:

I think the key is to build consistency in other ways--culture for example.  They aren't ready to compete at the MLB level because they don't have a grip on the infrastructure of things.  Competing in games in the final phase.  They need to focus not just on learning, but the learning process.  You have to stick to your guns amidst the chaos and I think if you look a little deeper, you'll see signs that we are doing just that.  Building structure is critical.  Rules.  Repitition.  Expectations.  It's the dirty work that no one wants to be a part of.  Honestly, from an instructional staff standpoint, you have to approach it like this.  Continue to give consistent, correct information whenever possible.  Constantly, vocally repeat the rules of the game and the correct ways to mentally process the game.  Reinforce everything/always.  Players will go through a pattern of receiving that information.  It will go like this "duh, I know that" to "I know" to "I know w/annoyance" to "I know w/anger" to "why on earth do they keep saying this," to "these guys are crazy for saying this over and over," to "I'm done with this!" Once that happens...true learning is near!  From there, they will entertain the instruction by focusing on it--usually first out of spite or pure entertainment value--then a positive result will come of it.  That will get everyone's attention.   Trust will build and since the process has been drilled so far into their heads, it will start to come easier and more naturally.  It will start to show up in games and then it will start to impact the outcome of games.  Once that happens it will become extremely important to everyone and they will start to make personal sacrifices in order to further the team goal, more importantly...they team "way."  They will have learned how to play and win together.  It's Pavlov's dogs.  It's in all the text books because it's an actual thing.  

Ricky is doing that now.  Defining what should be done, defining everyone's responsibility, definining the culture, defining the type of gameplay we're going for and having real, consistent positive/negative consequences for players along the way.  Benching players is important if patterns develop that go against what we are going for.  Watch "Miracle" and the way Herb Brooks teaches the kids on the Miracle on Ice team.  Early on, HE looked like the crazy one and the tendency is to side with the players.  Managerial credit is the LAST step to come around--not until the team starts to win consistently do you see the "this guy's a genius" comments start.  Until then, it's rough going...why?  Because in a complete rebuild, you don't start with how to win. You start with how to think...THEN how to play.  Right now we are somewhere in that process and everyone's solution is indictive on where they think we are or should be in that process.  Our people know where we actually are.  Rick Renteria knows where they are and what to do.  He's a professional with more experience than any of us doing this very thing.  Let him work, let him bench, let him teach, and manage.  The on-field product is horrific because they are in a state of teaching and initial learning.  Seeing them getting blown out consistently just means that the opportunity is prime for messages to sink in.  Players are more understanding to the fact that they need to listen closer.  Managerial messaging should be "I will continue to show confidence in you as long as you are playing the right way...if you are not playing the right way, I will take you out of the lineup and help you by having you work with our instructional staff until you get back on track--then you will be back in the lineup."   Mistakes don't get you out of the lineup--but poor effort will.  

That's all fine and dandy, but this stuff should start the first day you report to the White Sox. I don't understand how guys make it through several years in the minors, get called up, and are as clueless as many of at least the White Sox prospects over the years, are. You learn something every day, but you should have a pretty good idea about the basics by the time you get to the major leagues, or there is a problem at the lower levels.

[FT35]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's all fine and dandy, but this stuff should start the first day you report to the White Sox. I don't understand how guys make it through several years in the minors, get called up, and are as clueless as many of at least the White Sox prospects over the years, are. You learn something every day, but you should have a pretty good idea about the basics by the time you get to the major leagues, or there is a problem at the lower levels.

VERY MUCH agree with this.  I've always been skeptical that they have had good teachers as coaches in our system.  A lot of these kids are right out of college/sometimes high school and learning seems to stop their senior year.  I haven't seen a fundamentally sound player produced by our system in a long time.  I've seen natural talent graduated to the big leagues, and continue to refine itself at the MLB level but when was the last fundamentally sound player produced by our system?  Who is still teaching them?  I see Renteria teaching in games--but I agree with you 100%, it seems like the info is brand new to these guys.  MLB players clueless to the fundamentals of the game.  But boy they know all about the launch angle!!!  They know that part really well!

[Wanne]

11 hours ago, greg775 said:

I probably should shut up as I truly do wish Timmy the best.

I think that's the best thing you've said in this entire thread.  Seriously.   Anderson is better this year...still makes boneheaded mistakes but better.  However...he's still very young.  Let's drop the "how people should react to loss" and move on.  Unless you're in their shoes...you don't have a clue.

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, homievisual said:

VERY MUCH agree with this.  I've always been skeptical that they have had good teachers as coaches in our system.  A lot of these kids are right out of college/sometimes high school and learning seems to stop their senior year.  I haven't seen a fundamentally sound player produced by our system in a long time.  I've seen natural talent graduated to the big leagues, and continue to refine itself at the MLB level but when was the last fundamentally sound player produced by our system?  Who is still teaching them?  I see Renteria teaching in games--but I agree with you 100%, it seems like the info is brand new to these guys.  MLB players clueless to the fundamentals of the game.  But boy they know all about the launch angle!!!  They know that part really well!

Saladino and Sanchez were pretty fundamentally decent when they were called up. The team practically revolted in 2015 to get Sanchez at 2b because Micah Johnson was a defensive and fundamental mess, and Saladino taking over 3b happened right when that team had its only winning streak.

[Balta1701]

The other part of the story with Anderson is that he was not ready to be called up when he was called up. He was thought to be a raw player when he was drafted, with only 1 year of college ball behind him. He was raw at every level the White Sox put him at. At each level, he took about 3 months of struggling before he put together a good month. He only spent part of a year at AAA because the White Sox had to do their panic "Save our season" callups of Fulmer and Anderson in June, 2016, right after they traded for Shields for the same reason. He wasn't called up because he was ready, he was called up because Rick Hahn convinced himself that team was competitive and then somehow Jimmy Rollins turned out to actually be as old as we thought he was.

If your goal was to develop Anderson he wouldn't have made his first appearance in the big leagues until September of 2016 and then he'd have been a rookie in 2017, struggling like many rookies do. 

[FT35]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Saladino and Sanchez were pretty fundamentally decent when they were called up. The team practically revolted in 2015 to get Sanchez at 2b because Micah Johnson was a defensive and fundamental mess, and Saladino taking over 3b happened right when that team had its only winning streak.

Fair.  Just hope the return rate gets a lot higher.  While I like him, it's tough to hang your hat on Yolmer Sanchez as the best your organization has to show for your player development staff.  Especially over a multi-year sample.  But I do agree--I see some evidence of fundamental knowledge with Yolmer.  Just wonder if it was there before he came to us or as a result of being with our guys.  A lot of this has to do with our drafting style--drafting tools and athletes over baseball players/fundamentals.  Problem is, these guys breeze through their bench press drills, but struggle with the basics--the basic understanding of the game.  I absolutely believe they have the skills to succeed and they are too good not to compete at this level eventually--but man, just looking at our track record of developing players to make a seamless transition to the big leagues is kind of shaky.  Our MLB roster is looking more and more like a collection of our best organazational options, rather than guys who are ready to compete at this level.  You can see why Rick Hahn and the front office made the decision to pull the plug on the direction of the White Sox...they probably saw this coming a few years ago and though...YIKES......Minus the guys we got in firesale trades, this year's team is mostly the product of decisions made in 2015-2016.  Not good!  

[Eminor3rd]

It's a cold stretch for a bad team. It will get better on its own. The answer is "keep running them out there."

It IS hard to watch though. In case anyone needs ideas, what I've been doing is watching Japanese baseball instead, lol.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The other part of the story with Anderson is that he was not ready to be called up when he was called up. He was thought to be a raw player when he was drafted, with only 1 year of college ball behind him. He was raw at every level the White Sox put him at. At each level, he took about 3 months of struggling before he put together a good month. He only spent part of a year at AAA because the White Sox had to do their panic "Save our season" callups of Fulmer and Anderson in June, 2016, right after they traded for Shields for the same reason. He wasn't called up because he was ready, he was called up because Rick Hahn convinced himself that team was competitive and then somehow Jimmy Rollins turned out to actually be as old as we thought he was.

If your goal was to develop Anderson he wouldn't have made his first appearance in the big leagues until September of 2016 and then he'd have been a rookie in 2017, struggling like many rookies do. 

Ha, this is what I can do with a working search function! This was me talking about Anderson in June of 2015, when people were wanting him called up to save that roster. 

Quote

He still has talent, he has speed, he still is piling up the hits, but any reasonable organization would see his performance this year and think "ok, let's be patient and take our time, he has a lot to learn even at these levels". A reasonable organization would see that performance and slide him back to a mid 2017 arrival at the earliest barring a huge improvement, and then that reasonable organization would expect there's a good chance he'll need to struggle for a year or two at the big league level if he ever can take hold of a starting position. That org would also realize there's a good chance he completely busts and can't handle a position or the strikeouts pile up even more as he faces better pitching and becomes just another guy who drifts around after getting a short shot and come up with other plans. If he does better than that, great, but stop penciling him in as even a future big league regular until we see him earn it.