Trust the process

[wrathofhahn]

Honestly people who are saying this team is bad what can be done to fix this mess don't understand this team was meant to be bad and it will only get worse.

Rebuilds don't happen in a year and no we shouldn't be going after Manchado next year. If you don't trust the process and the rebuild that's fine but dear god give it more then a year before trying to pull the plug.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[mac9001]

Agree with everything but the Manchado part. Our payroll will be pitiful and Manchado fits even the most pessimistic prognosis of the rebuild. I'm not expecting them to compete next year, but I sure as hell expect them to at least throw some money around to try and jump start this thing. 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, wrathofhahn said:

Honestly people who are saying this team is bad what can be done to fix this mess don't understand this team was meant to be bad and it will only get worse.

Rebuilds don't happen in a year and no we shouldn't be going after Manchado next year. If you don't trust the process and the rebuild that's fine but dear god give it more then a year before trying to pull the plug.

 

 

 Nobody's trying to pull the plug because we have no power to pull the plug. I realize we are rebuilding. I'm OK with it. I just am not going to sit back and trust our front office when these same peeps thought LaRoche could play and some other stiffs I won't mention. I see no reason to not be an asshole fan. Look, they are giving us the worst possible product last year, this year, more years to come and they are not reducing prices for the not even minor league product. That to me is despicable. Truly despicable. So I'll call them on it. You want to rebuild. Fine. You put this crap on the field, cut prices for tickets 1/2 to 2/3s and lower parking to 5 bucks and beer to 6 bucks. When your little rebuild is complete raise prices again. Thank u.

p.s. If the White Sox want to pay for my mlb.com this year and retroactively last year and again next year I will be more forgiving in my comments.

Edited April 23, 2018 by greg775

[WBWSF]

Trust The Process? I honestly thought this team would be bad but still somewhat entertaining. I hoped the team would have 3 good starting pitchers. Lopez, Fulmer and Giolito. Turns out that Lopez has been the only good starter on the staff. The rest of the starting pitching has been BAD. The rest of the team has collapsed. The hitting and defense hasn't been good. I really think this team can lose as many games as the 1962 Mets did when they lost 120 games. If people want to trust the process, so be it. I don't.

[caulfield12]

There are LOTS of reasons to believe in the players we've acquired in the last 2 years.

 

The counter-arguments are also obvious:

1) Misjudging Tatis, Jr., although I think everyone got ahead of themselves to believe a raw 19 year old could basically skip over High A and light up the AA circuit, where the pitching is much tougher

2) A disastrous list of free agent signings dating back to 2011 (Dunn) under KW/Hahn...and a lingering question mark whether he can pull the trigger on the right players when it really counts

3) Hawkins (although KW's pick, supposedly)

4) A plethora of question marks abound with higher draft choices like Fulmer, Collins (the hitch), Burger (positional versatility and general concerns about his size and athleticism)

5) The backsliding of Avi Garcia this year still leaves us without many success stories on the development/sustaining success side of things...Tim Anderson is probably the best example, so far (although still incredibly raw, albeit talent off the charts)

6) The fact that the Nationals were willing to part so quickly with Giolito in hindsight was a big red flag...LUCKILY, it appears Lopez and Dunning will be able to compensate, but we really need 2 of those 3 to do something productive or the trade can't really be considered successful...we can't say this was an "absolute steal" of a trade anymore

7) Moncada is holding his own so far...but he's still more "future/potential" than realized success, and the K rate is 10% too high even though he seems to have a 2.5-3.0 fWAR floor based on defense, OBP, XB power and baserunning alone

? (was supposed to be 9, but this is fitting) Chris Getz is still largely unproven/untested...the W-Salem results so far are encouraging, but is he the right man to put the entire future of a $1+ billion organization's talent development in the hands of...we shall soon see

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

You have to trust the process because it does take time and frankly there's not a lot you as an average fan can do about if, if anything at all.

However as a friend of mine posted, this front office hasn't earned the right to get the benefit of the doubt and I certainly see where he's coming from given that it was the same front office that put the franchise into the hole it has been in basically since late September 2012.

He also brought up something that really makes you stop and consider. He listed all the recent first round draft picks by this front office and how they are doing. It was sobering to be sure:

Rodon, Burdi, Bummer (Injured)

Anderson (Very inconsistent at the ML level)

Fulmer (Struggling badly at the ML level)

Collins (Struggling badly in Double A)    

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

There are LOTS of reasons to believe in the players we've acquired in the last 2 years.

 

The counter-arguments are also obvious:

1) Misjudging Tatis, Jr., although I think everyone got ahead of themselves to believe a raw 19 year old could basically skip over High A and light up the AA circuit, where the pitching is much tougher

2) A disastrous list of free agent signings dating back to 2011 (Dunn) under KW/Hahn...and a lingering question mark whether he can pull the trigger on the right players when it really counts

3) Hawkins (although KW's pick, supposedly)

4) A plethora of question marks abound with higher draft choices like Fulmer, Collins (the hitch), Burger (positional versatility and general concerns about his size and athleticism)

5) The backsliding of Avi Garcia this year still leaves us without many success stories on the development/sustaining success side of things...Tim Anderson is probably the best example, so far (although still incredibly raw, albeit talent off the charts)

6) The fact that the Nationals were willing to part so quickly with Giolito in hindsight was a big red flag...LUCKILY, it appears Lopez and Dunning will be able to compensate, but we really need 2 of those 3 to do something productive or the trade can't really be considered successful...we can't say this was an "absolute steal" of a trade anymore

7) Moncada is holding his own so far...but he's still more "future/potential" than realized success, and the K rate is 10% too high even though he seems to have a 2.5-3.0 fWAR floor based on defense, OBP, XB power and baserunning alone

? (was supposed to be 9, but this is fitting) Chris Getz is still largely unproven/untested...the W-Salem results so far are encouraging, but is he the right man to put the entire future of a $1+ billion organization's talent development in the hands of...we shall soon see

 

Precisely what my numerous posts in the other threads are getting at . They basically go ignored while more silly/ insensitive comments draw out the moral outrage and the pc police. No one really wants to discuss the whole "trust issue " a lot of fans have.

I have no intention of trusting the process. Trust is earned not handed over on a silver platter. The only trust this front office has earned is in the ability to somehow fuck up while apparently doing their best to do the right thing. If that's their best efforts  how can I trust in their process ?

[caulfield12]

Lip meant Burger, not Bummer.

Also, there was another huge red flag that PTAC noticed a long time ago.

Rodon was going to have issues both with repeatability of delivery (leading to control issues/inconsistency) and possible injury issues down the line (partly related to his reliance on the slider, the rest...mechanics).

Now I don't know who else would have been the obvious pick there (certainly not Schwarber) and we all felt lucky that Rodon fell to us (Aiken/Kolek going ahead of him), but there was a reason his stock had fallen a bit (partly due to boredom at NC State?)

He certainly has the talent to be a Chris Sale, TOR starter...but he also has the floor to end up disappointing (White Sox career-wise at least) like Wilson Alvarez.

[Jerksticks]

It’s just baseball.  The FO has not personally wronged any of us.  It’s a business and I think they are doing the right thing to make that business a bunch of money in the coming years.  If you don’t think our FO is full of competitive MFers, you crazy.  I still think Avi  will heat up with the weather and we know Abreu will.  It’ll get more fun this year.  I promise. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Jerksticks

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

24 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

It’s just baseball.  The FO has not personally wronged any of us.  It’s a business and I think they are doing the right thing to make that business a bunch of money in the coming years.  If you don’t think our FO is full of competitive MFers, you crazy.  I still think Avi  will heat up with the weather and we know Abreu will.  It’ll get more fun this year.  I promise. 

Competitive ? Yes.  Competent ?  Not so sure.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

He certainly has the talent to be a Chris Sale, TOR starter...but he also has the floor to end up disappointing (White Sox career-wise at least) like Wilson Alvarez.

I'd argue about Alvarez having a "disappointing" Sox career. The guy had two outstanding seasons (93-94) threw a no-hitter, made the All Star Team, had a stretch where he threw 30 straight shutout innings.  I think he had 11 or 12 straight winning decisions at one point. He also was pretty healthy and took the ball often. That's not bad. His agent and the Sox did not get along which was a big reason why he was traded.

Rodon has had his moments, like the game where he struck out the first seven Twins he faced, but overall in large part because he's made of glass, he's been a disappointment. And I'd argue because he's got the same agent as Alvarez, if he can get healthy he'll be testing the market in two years. And if he's done well, he'll be way beyond the Sox price range.

For a guy who was such a very, very high pick, that is a disappointing Sox career in my opinion.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Precisely what my numerous posts in the other threads are getting at . They basically go ignored while more silly/ insensitive comments draw out the moral outrage and the pc police. No one really wants to discuss the whole "trust issue " a lot of fans have.

I have no intention of trusting the process. Trust is earned not handed over on a silver platter. The only trust this front office has earned is in the ability to somehow fuck up while apparently doing their best to do the right thing. If that's their best efforts  how can I trust in their process ?

Well said and certainly true among a segment of the fan base. History shows they certainly have a reason to be skeptical. I supported and still do the rebuild but the concerns are valid in my opinion. And I supported the rebuild not because I necessarily agree with it (I mean we're talking a team in Chicago...not Kansas City, Milwaukee or Cincinnati, a much small location that doesn't have the same advantages) but because since ownership wasn't changing and the front office wasn't changing, it was the only logical thing to do under those constrictions.

[caulfield12]

43 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'd argue about Alvarez having a "disappointing" Sox career. The guy had two outstanding seasons (93-94) threw a no-hitter, made the All Star Team, had a stretch where he threw 30 straight shutout innings.  I think he had 11 or 12 straight winning decisions at one point. He also was pretty healthy and took the ball often. That's not bad. His agent and the Sox did not get along which was a big reason why he was traded.

Rodon has had his moments, like the game where he struck out the first seven Twins he faced, but overall in large part because he's made of glass, he's been a disappointment. And I'd argue because he's got the same agent as Alvarez, if he can get healthy he'll be testing the market in two years. And if he's done well, he'll be way beyond the Sox price range.

For a guy who was such a very, very high pick, that is a disappointing Sox career in my opinion.

Rodon isn't a free agent until the 2022 season.

His contract goes right through the heart of the rebuilding and into the first two "competitive years" in the window, and possibly three (years) if they add any significant free agents after this season.

[Flash Tizzle]

I understand anyone that doesn't trust the process. For years, many of us on Soxtalk didn't trust their amateur drafting process, international signing process, or the entire process for how the team was constructed year to year. I'd say all of those concerns were justified. 

No one within this organization is famiiar with a rebuild. And while I don't fault the White Sox (it was absolutely the right move) or doubt the overall talent received from the respectives trades, they don't deserve a free pass. Trust shouldn't be established, but earned. I personally have faith in the process and hope it succeeds, but honestly I don't fear failure. If by some disasterous turn of events the rebuild is prolonged because of ineffectiveness or injuries to our top prospects, then so be it.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the same people who were upset about the idea of a rebuild are now upset it's not happening at an accelerated pace. Like all this nonsense I've read about Giolito, how he has "lost his confidence" and needs time in AAA to regeoup himself. Why? If he's going to fail, let him fail with 200 innings and an entire year of major league coaching. Do NOT be afraid of it because somehow it may discredit the entire rebuild. Not everyone in our minor league system is going to succeed, either. At this point in his development, it's not even worth sending him down. He's not blocking anyone or jeopardizing anything but our place at the bottom of the ALC. 

Honestly, I'd love if it we would receive another Top 5 pick in 2019. If you can look back at the 2018 season and say overall, most (because you can't expect 100% success rate) of the players we're expecting to contribute to future teams have progressed forward, then everything is going as planned. Our record overall shouldn't mean shit

Edited April 23, 2018 by Flash Tizzle

[caulfield12]

As long as they're not afraid to make the right moves with guys like Giolito and Fulmer, instead of worrying about the PR implications of perceived failure.  A week or ten days ago, it was Moncada when he was down around a 600 OPS.

Obviously, they finally cut bait with Hawkins.  That's a start, at least.

There does come a point with any pitcher where you have to assess the benefits of getting hit around at the major league level..."on the job training," versus a period out of the spotlight back in AAA.

Nobody at SoxTalk can make those decisions.  We're not psychologists.  We can only play them on television commercials/SoxTalk.

Most of us were already predicting that Fulmer would eventually end up in the bullpen (how that will improve his control issues is uncertain, maybe concentrating on just two pitches at max effort will do the trick).  That wasn't a HUGE surprise to anyone, right?

So it's really ALL about Giolito (right now)...whose smooth sailing to end last season probably created unrealistic expectations this year that he would continue a smooth/linear upward trajectory.  And maybe Avisail Garcia's downward slide, to a lesser extent.

(On the plus side, Lopez has been almost as impressive, control issues notwithstanding, as Gio has been terrible.)

 

One can also hope that the pressure on the front office to bring up Jimenez and Kopech doesn't effect the front office...that the ONLY consideration is readiness for the big leagues.

I'm not 100% sure that was the case with bringing Moncada up last year, but what's done is done on that front.

 

BIG PLUSES

Davidson and Yolmer...Nate Jones' health

Rutherford/Booker/Basabe

Dylan Cease/Dunning

Omar Vizquel's managing

Micker Adolfo (until the last 3-4 games, at least)

Zavala's hitting

 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

1 hour ago, Flash Tizzle said:

I understand anyone that doesn't trust the process. For years, many of us on Soxtalk didn't trust their amateur drafting process, international signing process, or the entire process for how the team was constructed year to year. I'd say all of those concerns were justified. 

No one within this organization is famiiar with a rebuild. And while I don't fault the White Sox (it was absolutely the right move) or doubt the overall talent received from the respectives trades, they don't deserve a free pass. Trust shouldn't be established, but earned. I personally have faith in the process and hope it succeeds, but honestly I don't fear failure. If by some disasterous turn of events the rebuild is prolonged because of ineffectiveness or injuries to our top prospects, then so be it.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the same people who were upset about the idea of a rebuild are now upset it's not happening at an accelerated pace. Like all this nonsense I've read about Giolito, how he has "lost his confidence" and needs time in AAA to regeoup himself. Why? If he's going to fail, let him fail with 200 innings and an entire year of major league coaching. Do NOT be afraid of it because somehow it may discredit the entire rebuild. Not everyone in our minor league system is going to succeed, either. At this point in his development, it's not even worth sending him down. He's not blocking anyone or jeopardizing anything but our place at the bottom of the ALC. 

Honestly, I'd love if it we would receive another Top 5 pick in 2019. If you can look back at the 2018 season and say overall, most (because you can't expect 100% success rate) of the players we're expecting to contribute to future teams have progressed forward, then everything is going as planned. Our record overall shouldn't mean shit

 

Great post Tizzle, and good to see you back around these parts. Quality poster. If anyone was expecting Fulmer, Giolito AND Lopez for example to all be fixtures in the rotation then yea, probably shouldn't "trust the process" cause that's not how rebuilds work. We will be lucky if 2 of those guys pan out for us in the rotation.

[southsider2k5]

8 hours ago, Flash Tizzle said:

I understand anyone that doesn't trust the process. For years, many of us on Soxtalk didn't trust their amateur drafting process, international signing process, or the entire process for how the team was constructed year to year. I'd say all of those concerns were justified. 

No one within this organization is famiiar with a rebuild. And while I don't fault the White Sox (it was absolutely the right move) or doubt the overall talent received from the respectives trades, they don't deserve a free pass. Trust shouldn't be established, but earned. I personally have faith in the process and hope it succeeds, but honestly I don't fear failure. If by some disasterous turn of events the rebuild is prolonged because of ineffectiveness or injuries to our top prospects, then so be it.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the same people who were upset about the idea of a rebuild are now upset it's not happening at an accelerated pace. Like all this nonsense I've read about Giolito, how he has "lost his confidence" and needs time in AAA to regeoup himself. Why? If he's going to fail, let him fail with 200 innings and an entire year of major league coaching. Do NOT be afraid of it because somehow it may discredit the entire rebuild. Not everyone in our minor league system is going to succeed, either. At this point in his development, it's not even worth sending him down. He's not blocking anyone or jeopardizing anything but our place at the bottom of the ALC. 

Honestly, I'd love if it we would receive another Top 5 pick in 2019. If you can look back at the 2018 season and say overall, most (because you can't expect 100% success rate) of the players we're expecting to contribute to future teams have progressed forward, then everything is going as planned. Our record overall shouldn't mean shit

Now that the process is in place, the absolute worst thing that the Sox can do is try rushing it.  Both in terms of the big picture and individuals, they need to take the time that this affords them to grow and evaluate the players and the team.  Let kids compete.  Let kids get their ABs and IPs.  Literally the only way this has a chance at working is if the Sox don't panic.  Giolito, Lopez, and Fulmer need innings, and unless something drastic changes, they need them at the major league level.  The hitters need their ABs and they need those repetitions to work on fundamentals at game speed.  Practice and the minors will get you to a certain point, but eventually you have to learn on the job against the best in the world.

As of April 23rd there is no reason to be sending guys down or cutting players.  When the next group is ready to move up, there are guys on the roster who are expendable.  It is not about winning 75 instead of 68 games this year.  It is about what is essentially a mass internship for guys who are trying to break into the industry.

[Wanne]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

BIG PLUSES

Davidson and Yolmer...Nate Jones' health

Rutherford/Booker/Basabe

Dylan Cease/Dunning

Omar Vizquel's managing

Micker Adolfo (until the last 3-4 games, at least)

Zavala's hitting

 

 

Not to mention having some bullpen arms down there like Ian Hamilton, Burr...and Burdi coming back.  The Burger injury was a huge setback for the position IMO...but I'm not really going to sweat the the rebuild until I see what the OF of Jimenez, Robert, Adolfo (or Rutherford) looks like...along with the starting staff of Lopez, Kopech, Dunning, Cease and Gio.  We knew it would be a few years.  I think most people that are pissed right now are mad that Hahn didn't find better replacements to fill the time slot until these guys are ready.  Easier said than done given the money/length of contract these FAs want. But again....what's the point.  The only person out

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Wanne said:

Not to mention having some bullpen arms down there like Ian Hamilton, Burr...and Burdi coming back.  The Burger injury was a huge setback for the position IMO...but I'm not really going to sweat the the rebuild until I see what the OF of Jimenez, Robert, Adolfo (or Rutherford) looks like...along with the starting staff of Lopez, Kopech, Dunning, Cease and Gio.  We knew it would be a few years.  I think most people that are pissed right now are mad that Hahn didn't find better replacements to fill the time slot until these guys are ready.  Easier said than done given the money/length of contract these FAs want. But again....what's the point.  The only person out

Speaking of Burdi has anyone heard anything about him recently? I think it's been a year or so since his surgery and shouldn't he be throwing by now? I don't necessarily mean throwing off a mound just starting to throw again.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Now that the process is in place, the absolute worst thing that the Sox can do is try rushing it.  Both in terms of the big picture and individuals, they need to take the time that this affords them to grow and evaluate the players and the team.  Let kids compete.  Let kids get their ABs and IPs.  Literally the only way this has a chance at working is if the Sox don't panic.  Giolito, Lopez, and Fulmer need innings, and unless something drastic changes, they need them at the major league level.  The hitters need their ABs and they need those repetitions to work on fundamentals at game speed.  Practice and the minors will get you to a certain point, but eventually you have to learn on the job against the best in the world.

As of April 23rd there is no reason to be sending guys down or cutting players.  When the next group is ready to move up, there are guys on the roster who are expendable.  It is not about winning 75 instead of 68 games this year.  It is about what is essentially a mass internship for guys who are trying to break into the industry.

I don't know how you can expect 68 wins. This team will win about 8 games a month if it's lucky. That's 48 wins.

[Dick Allen]

When even Hawk doesn't think next year will be a contending year, that will tell you this process is still more toward the beginning than the end.

[TheFutureIsNear]

As a sixers fan I fully understand the process and even supported it. Unfortunately baseball doesn’t work the same way. It will be a never ending process if the Sox are building through the draft only. They need to continue to add as much talent as possible, whenever possible. Speeding up the process isn’t a bad thing lol. Basketball works because you can draft a franchise changing player that makes an immediate impact, that’s more than likely not going to happen in baseball. I’m 100% behind a rebuild, but it’s already year 2 and there isn’t an end in thought, let alone in sight. If the front office sits around and let’s all prospects develop and draft picks come up it’s going to be a decade long process. Minimum

[southsider2k5]

44 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I don't know how you can expect 68 wins. This team will win about 8 games a month if it's lucky. That's 48 wins.

I'd ask if you want to bet on this, but I know better than to fall for the old house bet.

[southsider2k5]

31 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When even Hawk doesn't think next year will be a contending year, that will tell you this process is still more toward the beginning than the end.

Hawk even said 2020 on opening day.

[southsider2k5]